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Wishfire

Constitution-class refit

The refitted Connie  

18 members have voted

  1. 1. Same class, or new?

    • It's still a Constitution-class
      13
    • It's no longer a Constitution-class
      5


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I can't remember where I saw this debate, so here it is again.

 

Basically, the argument goes that once the 1701 got refitted, it should be a new class due to the extensive modifications to the hull design. The argument continues that in modern navies, ships that are as extensively refitted often are designated as new classes of ships.

 

Here's an image displaying the changes made...

 

1701preandpost.jpg

 

The two overlaid images aren't lined up perfectly, and I apologize for that. I did the best I could.

 

In any case, though, you can tell the degree of external changes. Most noticeably are the nacelles and the nacelle pylons. But there are also considerable changes to the saucer section, the stardrive section, and the "neck." In other words, just about everything.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

EDIT: Perhaps I should rephrase the question. The question is not "Is the refit Enterprise still a Constitution-class starship as per Trek lore," but rather, "Should the refit Enterprise still be considered a Constitution-class starship?"

Edited by Kraven de Sade

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In the Star Trek Encyclopedia, ENT-A is referred to as a Constitution Class (Refit).

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There was a scene in STVI where Scotty was looking at a diagram of the Enterprise, and the heading was Constitution Class.

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There was a scene in STVI where Scotty was looking at a diagram of the Enterprise, and the heading was Constitution Class.

 

There's also a scene in TWOK where Kirk and Spock are standing outside the bridge simulator (which is undoubtedly a mock-up of a refitted Connie), where it's referred to as the "Enterprise-class." "Enterprise-class" would make sense if the refitted Connies are a new class of ship and the Enterprise was the first ship to receive the refit.

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I always took "Enterprise Class" to refer to the "class" of students training on the "Enterprise" simulator.

 

 

The refit I regard as being a Constitution Class starship.

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There was a scene in STVI where Scotty was looking at a diagram of the Enterprise, and the heading was Constitution Class.

 

There's also a scene in TWOK where Kirk and Spock are standing outside the bridge simulator (which is undoubtedly a mock-up of a refitted Connie), where it's referred to as the "Enterprise-class." "Enterprise-class" would make sense if the refitted Connies are a new class of ship and the Enterprise was the first ship to receive the refit.

It could mean that it was Enterprise subclass.

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There was a scene in STVI where Scotty was looking at a diagram of the Enterprise, and the heading was Constitution Class.

 

There's also a scene in TWOK where Kirk and Spock are standing outside the bridge simulator (which is undoubtedly a mock-up of a refitted Connie), where it's referred to as the "Enterprise-class." "Enterprise-class" would make sense if the refitted Connies are a new class of ship and the Enterprise was the first ship to receive the refit.

It could mean that it was Enterprise subclass.

 

Then shouldn't it have said "Enterprise subclass?"

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My personal favorite is the 1701-A that was in ST-VI. I loved the interior shots of that ship as it had a better feel to it than ones past. And I liked the layout of the bridge in this one far more than the ones in past films.

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My personal favorite is the 1701-A that was in ST-VI. I loved the interior shots of that ship as it had a better feel to it than ones past. And I liked the layout of the bridge in this one far more than the ones in past films.

 

Um, it's not really a "favorite" poll...

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There was a scene in STVI where Scotty was looking at a diagram of the Enterprise, and the heading was Constitution Class.

 

There's also a scene in TWOK where Kirk and Spock are standing outside the bridge simulator (which is undoubtedly a mock-up of a refitted Connie), where it's referred to as the "Enterprise-class." "Enterprise-class" would make sense if the refitted Connies are a new class of ship and the Enterprise was the first ship to receive the refit.

It could mean that it was Enterprise subclass.

 

Then shouldn't it have said "Enterprise subclass?"

 

I have no doubt that the Enterprise was a practically brand new starship. Weather or not it gets called a different class is up for grabs. In the real life US Navy, ships have been so heavily modified that they hardly resemble the original anywhere.

 

Wishfire, I recognise that first image, is that from Ex-Astris-Scientia? Here's an example from there about US Navy ships being modified so much they do not hardly resemble their "Off the Lot" form, this is the Aircraft carrier USS Midway (CV-41)

 

 

midway-cv41.jpg

 

 

 

Would this be considered a different class, too? By the way, some folks refere to the Flt IIA Arliegh Burke class Destroyers of the US Navy as the "Oscar Austin Class", because it has some substantial differences, dispite being generally the same design.

Edited by Gary_Phaserman

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My personal favorite is the 1701-A that was in ST-VI. I loved the interior shots of that ship as it had a better feel to it than ones past. And I liked the layout of the bridge in this one far more than the ones in past films.

 

Um, it's not really a "favorite" poll...

I know. I was merely expressing my fondness for it is all.

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Wishfire, I recognise that first image, is that from Ex-Astris-Scientia? Here's an example from there about US Navy ships being modified so much they do not hardly resemble their "Off the Lot" form, this is the Aircraft carrier USS Midway (CV-41)

 

 

midway-cv41.jpg

 

 

 

Would this be considered a different class, too? By the way, some folks refere to the Flt IIA Arliegh Burke class Destroyers of the US Navy as the "Oscar Austin Class", because it has some substantial differences, dispite being generally the same design.

 

The two images I used for that image are from EAS, yes. I feathered them so they would be transparent over one another, creating the above image. Not the best job, but it was as good as I could do giving my knowledge of the program I used.

 

As for the image you linked to, EAS doesn't allow hotlinks. I'd suggest saving it to your computer, and then uploading to a site like Photobucket. Then linking to it from there.

 

In any case, I'm not sure how the U.S. Navy does things as far as vessel classifications go, but if I'm not mistaken, a ship that underwent such extensive modification would indeed be a new class of ship. Or, at least, a sub-class (or variant). I may be wrong on that.

Edited by WishfireOmega

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I think that if a ship maintains basic design features, that it should remain known as a specific class. 1701-A still looks like a Constitution Class Ship, albeit with modifications, so why not call it "Constitution Refit"?

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I have a question. How many Constitution class ships were there? How many made it back to be refitted? Was the Enterprise the first to be refitted? Or of the old Constitution class ships, was she the only one refit to the design of the 1701-A making it the only ship of the 'Enterprise class'?

I would think, once the ship had been refitted it no longer met the criteria for a Constitution class ship. Hence I believe it became a new class.

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The only real answer according to canon is that there were originally 12 Constitution Class ships. The rest is all up to speculation and info from the novels. One novel I read was that the Enterprise-A was the original USS Yorktown which was renamed. Apparently there is also one un-refitted ship in the fleet museum, according to Picard. Another novel I read named that ship but I've forgotten the name. An interesting tidbit in that novel was that the bridge module in the museum ship was the original Enterprise bridge module.

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The only real answer according to canon is that there were originally 12 Constitution Class ships.

 

Where, in canon, does this answer come from?

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The only real answer according to canon is that there were originally 12 Constitution Class ships.

 

Where, in canon, does this answer come from?

 

I'm trying to remember the episode. But in one of the TOS episodes, someone compliments Kirk on the Enterprise and he says "There are only 12 like it in the fleet". I'm sure somebody here will come up with the episode where that happened.

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Kor got my brain spinning its wheels.

I know that I can hear Kirk say that, but I can't remember which TOS Episode it's from.

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The episode you're looking for is "Tomorrow Is Yesterday". I think. :)

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The episode you're looking for is "Tomorrow Is Yesterday". I think. :)

 

Thats it! Captain Christopher compliments Kirk on the ship and then he says that line!

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I hope I can shed some light on this little debacle :) Anyway, the original Constitution-Class was slated as a light cruiser in the original technical manual, what we consider a dreadnaught being commissioned off the same design as a heavy cruiser.

 

The designation for the refit was actually referred to by several starfleet engineers as a "Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser" or at most a "refit". The changes aren't that extensive when you compare Wil Decker's Enterprise to Kirk's original...slap on a fresh coat of paint and replace the nacelle struts with something a little less hokey and there you have it...

 

They should call it "Constitution-Class Advanced" just to shut up the critics out there, it can be confusing, but it's starfleet and sometimes the SCE just can't make up their mind :eek:

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The designation for the refit was actually referred to by several starfleet engineers as a "Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser" or at most a "refit". The changes aren't that extensive when you compare Wil Decker's Enterprise to Kirk's original...slap on a fresh coat of paint and replace the nacelle struts with something a little less hokey and there you have it...

 

But it's more that a fresh coat of paint and new nacelle pylons. Look at the image in my original post, and you'll see many other differences. The shapes of the engineering section, saucer section, and "neck" have all been altered. Additionally, there's evidence that the internal lay-out of the ship had been altered. In TMP, Decker says that it's "an almost entirely new Enterprise," and goes on to say that Kirk wouldn't be able "to find a tent" as well as if the lay-out remained unchanged. Not to mention that at one point Kirk had to stop a yeoman and ask for directions...

 

Here are the images I used to make the composite image above...

 

constitution.jpg

 

constitution-refit.jpg

 

The sizing is a bit different. In both the above images, I scaled them to the same width as the top image (799 pixels), whereas for the top image I scaled them to as close as I could get them so they'd both be to scale of one another.

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It's funny that no other ships went through similar refits. It seems cheaper to just build a whole new one, given the time it woul dtake to strip one down and re-build it. I built the Polar Lights model last week. There were two options: either build it as the refit or as the Enterprise A. I chose the latter. The TOS one is the real Enterprise. It should have been the Enterprise A from the start ie The Motion Picture. Would have made more sense - tag could have been, "New Enterprise, New Mission, Same old Crew..." and NO BL00DY V'Ger rusty old satellite dish upgraded to the size of a galaxy with the intelligence of three billion ipods, kinda non-sense...

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No doubt its have its own class of its own-provided she is

have extra this and that technology advanced renovated

in the the 2 version-because its supposed to be the starfleet

flagship! aint it?

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No doubt its have its own class of its own-provided she is

have extra this and that technology advanced renovated

in the the 2 version-because its supposed to be the starfleet

flagship! aint it?

The flagship of the fleet doesn't have to be its own class. Look at the Enterprise-D, standard Galaxy class starship.

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Should the refit Enterprise still be considered a Constitution-class starship?

 

Yes because in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Scotty is studing a schematic of the Enterprise which says on top of the schematic Constitution Class Satrship!

 

Now in TOS, we know that the 1701 is a Constitution Class because in TOS: The Trouble with Tribbles. Scotty is at a computer screen looking at a phaser diagram which say on it Constitution Class.

 

Anyway it means both the 1701 (Constitution) and the 1701-A (Constitution refit) are both that same ship and is the same class. Also its canon! :P

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Should the refit Enterprise still be considered a Constitution-class starship?

 

Yes because in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Scotty is studing a schematic of the Enterprise which says on top of the schematic Constitution Class Satrship!

 

Now in TOS, we know that the 1701 is a Constitution Class because in TOS: The Trouble with Tribbles. Scotty is at a computer screen looking at a phaser diagram which say on it Constitution Class.

 

Anyway it means both the 1701 (Constitution) and the 1701-A (Constitution refit) are both that same ship and is the same class. Also its canon! :clap:

Your knowledge of Trek is most impressive! Well done!... :P

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