[S] Cogenitor 30.04

[poguemahone 0]

Welcome to the board Meatwad! I agree with all you said in your Spoiler. I for one look forward to the Borg episode. A lot of people at ST.COM seem ready to burun all of their copies of every singel episode of Star Trek because of this one episode, but mark my words. When this (the borg) episode is complete everyone will be singing it's praises!

I fell off the wagon, and went to check out ST.co for the first time 2 months, man they really hate ENT, so I came running back here. I would really like to know what episode they were watching, it was great.

[cptwright 1]

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yes i agree that tripp did what a lot of us would want to do. but i agree 150% with archer, and t'pol, you are talking about first contact, with a far more advanced race than we are, and its not a sex slave, it is an intrigul part of their reproductive system. if you were raised along with the rest of you planet in a certain way, its not wrong to you. so as outsiders, we need to respect their ways, and customs. who are we to tell others they are wrong, that is arogant, and pigheaded, on tripps part, and ours. as you see in the end, you took the cogenitor out of its place, then it didnt know what to do so it killed itself, thats better than what it was doing, i dont think so. as for archer, i was impressed with the assertive, strong reaction on his part, and i think it was rightly justified. one last thought, would you want an outside race coming to us and telling us what horrible people we are for raising cattle for the sole purpose of killing it to eat it. only example that comes to mind, put in any situation you want. no one likes how the vulcans dictated to us what we should or could do, in making our first starship, and mission. so we shouldnt do it to others

[poguemahone 0]

well put cptwright [claps]

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

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OK, I can agree Trip went about liberrating the Cogenitor all wrong.

 

However, look at the Cogenitor when Trip first met it. It just sat there... Then near the end... it wanted to watch movies, read literrature, climb mountains, explore the ship, have a name, expressed emotion, and even demanded asilem! How can you deny any form of sentient life - freedom?

[SuraksSoul 0]

This episode was great because it makes you think "Outside the box."

[Klingonmike 0]

What a great episode! Jean-Luc I'm glad you decided to watch it after all,don't let things like sex scare you away from a good episode.

Anyway back to the story:

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Trip really screwed up this time! I can certainly see this mission being taught at future Prime Directive classes at Starfleet.Archer was pretty pissed,he had such a good time with the captain of the other ship and then Trip goes and ruins a perfectly good first contact.

Reed was cracking me up tonight when that alien chick said she wanted to sleep with him,guess that lays the Reed is gay theroy to rest!

[Data 0]

Cool, I get to use the spoiler feature. I cannot write much because of a bum finger.

 

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Anyhoo, I am inclined to feel that Trip was out of line. I understand that he had good intentions. The alliens could be a valuable friend in the future. This incident soured it to certain extent. The Captains got along famously. The sad thing is that the Cogenitor did not know what it was missing. In other words it was content with its life no matter how poor it really was. All Trip did was confuse it with things it could not get from it's home. It was a member of a very small percentage of the allien's population. It's death was actually a great lose.

 

I agree, it is a great lesson on the importance of the Prime Directive.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I'd give it an 8.5 or maybe even 9;

 

First, for the science I don't get male/female/cogenitor. Male and female are concepts that apply to bi-gender reproduction. It seems to me that tri-gender should have genders A,B,C - three totally different genders.

 

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Suicide - the cogenitor commited suicide because "it" lived in an oppressive society. I think the real fiction here is that it or its never kind never realized that until it met Trip.

 

 

 

 

 

cptwright Posted on Apr 30 2003, 11:11 PM

I'm going to take your challenge:

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if you were raised along with the rest of you planet in a certain way, its not wrong to you. so as outsiders, we need to respect their ways, and customs. who are we to tell others they are wrong, that is arogant, and pigheaded, on tripps part, and ours. as you see in the end, you took the cogenitor out of its place, then it didnt know what to do so it killed itself, thats better than what it was doing, i dont think so. as for archer, i was impressed with the assertive, strong reaction on his part, and i think it was rightly justified. one last thought, would you want an outside race coming to us and telling us what horrible people we are for raising cattle for the sole purpose of killing it to eat it. only example that comes to mind, put in any situation you want.

 

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Any situation I want; well, how about Georgia in 1860; you've been raised your whole life to believe certain people were less capable than others; Do you appreciate folks from the North coming in and telling you what horrible people you are.

Is what Trip did any worse than running the underground railroad - which was at the time illegal

 

 

 

 

 

As for Archer's reaction:

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As an officer Trip has an obligation to follow orders; but Trip believed he was following the Captain's example - whose fault is that? I really have a hard time distinquishing this instance from other instances where Archer rushed in to help; except that he got along so well with the other Captain and there was profitable relationship to be had.

 

 

 

Does that mean its okay to do business with countries that violate human rights if there is a profit to be made

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Archer didn't do a good job of convincing me it was the cogenitor's welfare and not the loss of the relationship with the new species that he was upset about. Oh and that line about the life that will never be - give me a break - a species that aborts its unborn is concerned about a failed attempt at conception

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

TheUnicornHunter,

 

I agreed with most of what you said! :alien: Rock on!

[Admiral Kirk 1]

Hello I'm the new guy! I think that tonight's episode was one of the best in quite some time. It illustrates the learning process that humans in general will have to go through to become the species it is in later centuries. I do think that Trip was wrong. It was not his place to interfere in an entirely different and alien culture just because he thinks they are wrong. Thats like the old Christian missionaries telling natives that their beliefs were wrong because they were different. It is entirely believable that we would do this with an alien culture since we are still prone to do it on our own planet. I did not like their social system but it's not for me to judge.

[cptwright 1]

I'd give it an 8.5 or maybe even 9;

 

 

 

cptwright Posted on Apr 30 2003, 11:11 PM

I'm going to take your challenge:

Click for Spoiler:

if you were raised along with the rest of you planet in a certain way, its not wrong to you. so as outsiders, we need to respect their ways, and customs. who are we to tell others they are wrong, that is arogant, and pigheaded, on tripps part, and ours. as you see in the end, you took the cogenitor out of its place, then it didnt know what to do so it killed itself, thats better than what it was doing, i dont think so. as for archer, i was impressed with the assertive, strong reaction on his part, and i think it was rightly justified. one last thought, would you want an outside race coming to us and telling us what horrible people we are for raising cattle for the sole purpose of killing it to eat it. only example that comes to mind, put in any situation you want.

 

Click for Spoiler:

Any situation I want; well, how about Georgia in 1860; you've been raised your whole life to believe certain people were less capable than others; Do you appreciate folks from the North coming in and telling you what horrible people you are.

Is what Trip did any worse than running the underground railroad - which was at the time illegal

 

 

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Archer didn't do a good job of convincing me it was the cogenitor's welfare and not the loss of the relationship with the new species that he was upset about. Oh and that line about the life that will never be - give me a break - a species that aborts its unborn is concerned about a failed attempt at conception

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there is a difference though with what you said, humans dealing with humans. one can say it is HUMAN RIGHTS. but when refering to another race of beings, not of this planet thats a little different. oh yeah and not everyone goes for abortions, he can still have feeling for the people trying to have a child, then not being able to because of his crew member. that is directly affecting a civilization. there has to be a line there that you dont cross as a representative of your planet, meeting for the first time another race of beings.

[Guest dbcg]

This episode left in shock. Mo matter the perspective you choose to see the episodes' events in (trip/archer were right or wrong) I can safely say that. It makes you think and that is the sign of good story telling.

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I'll start with comments about the ending. The ending was an emotional slap in the face. After seeing the deep friendship between archer & trip developing through the first season it literally hurt to see such a rift form. I think archer was over the top in his reaction but I think I see the underlying reason behind it. Lets look at the plot line. This season starts with the enterprise's mission almost being canceled because of Archers previous actions. Remember that the reason the Vulcan's on earth gave for wanting the mission to end was because they felt archer was going to far & if it hadn't been for tepal's speech the vulcans would have gotten their way.

 

Putting aside right or wrong Archer has learned his lesson, he knows that incidents like the suicide of the cogenitor could result in enterprise being forced home permanently. And no matter what he personally felt was right or wrong , in his mind the most important thing was to not make the mistake of putting the mission in jeopardy again. So even if archer believed what trip did was right, he would have had to have reacted as he did. Trip put the mission in jeopardy by not folowing orders & by not considering the consequences of his actions. So was Archer right in reacting as he did yes.

Archers point was to teach his crew the same lesson he learned, that acting impulsively (even for the right reasons) could cost the human race its chance to continue exploring the stars.

 

To answer those who wish archer had been tougher on trip. Its because archer recognizes that he has been the one to set the bad example, that Trip is spared demotion, not to mention the fact that enterprise probably doesn't have an extra chief

engineer.

----

 

So now comments about the episode in general & about the ethical dilemma .

 

The episode preview last week was very disceptive , what looked like another 'alien sex is fun' episode turned out to be very dramatic. I think it reflects the wrong attitude the writers have toward the viewing audience that they felt that they had to make the episode seem light harted and sexual to get the audience to watch.

 

Was trip right in being outraged by slavery & wanting to do something about it. YES. This is the first of the ethical dilemmas touched on in this episode. The main ethical question being "Is it wrong to judge other cultures by your own standards?"

The only answer I can come up with is YES & NO.

The attitudes taken toward Native americans in US history is a perfect example of what I mean. On one hand some thought Native americans were evil savages and should be exterminated. On the other hand some though of them in scientific terms,

as something amazing to be studied , dissected & put on exhibit. Why were both of these attitudes ethically wrong? Simple because neither point of view takes into account the fact that native americans are our equals. Neither point of view saw them as mearly human like the rest of us, capable of beautiful things that can be admired but also capable of cruelty that needs to be understood just as we

try and come to terms with our own capacity for cruelty.

 

The point that seems clear to me is that the only way for one society or race to deal with another is to see them as an equal. Seeing them as equals means to treat them as you would want to be treated- by the same ethical standard- . So ethical standard is a necessity as a tool of equality and judging another by that ethical standard is reasonable. The point is to act wisely & not use it as an excuse for seeing yourself as superior, nor as a justification for discrimination, nor as a tool of abuse. We are judgmental creatures, we make judgments in every aspect of our lives, that is our reality.

 

Apply that to the dilemma in the episode. Yes slavery is wrong. With no doubt Tepal, Flox and all the people & races of the start trek universe would fight tooth & nail to free themselves from slavery. So its not mearly a misguided human ethical standard , it is a main universal ethical standard. And understanding this ethical standard is one of the reasons the vulcans thought that humans were ready for space

exploration.

 

The fact that ethical standards can be used by an unwise individual as a tool for discrimination & abuse(which is sadly common in our society as the vulcans have seen many times I'm sure) is the reason that Tepol dismissed Trip's concerns without considering the ethical side. Tepal may have bonded deeply with the crew, but she still sees the humans of the enterprise as ignorant and tends to react to situations without full consideration of what she hears or sees from them. Ignoring out right Trips concerns was a mistake in judgment on tepals part.

 

The plot of this episode is very manipulative in that it conveniently puts archer out of the picture so Trip can not go to him and express his concerns. Archer would have taken such concerns seriously. But the fact that Tepal (his superior officer at the time) dismissed Trips concerns does not justify his disobeying orders. Its not as if Trip had to act immediately because the cogenitor was in immediate danger, so I

agree with archer that Trips impulsiveness had gotten him in this situation & that disobeying Tepals orders was unjustified .

 

Inspite it being wrong to disobey orders and act impulsively, did Trip do the right thing by teaching the congenitor to read & encouraging her to rebel? YES & NO .

YES he did the ethically right thing, but NO under the circumstances Trip had to put aside ethics (a dilemma all soldiers have to face) and think about the greater good. This new race could have helped the human race immensely. First with technology and second by becoming the first true ally of the Human race. Something the human race desperately needs to survive in space. Making such judgment calls between

ethics & necessity is not pretty, but its the kind of call leaders & soldiers have to make in our imperfect world, and in the imperfect star trek universe.

 

There is one more question posed by this episode. Was archer right in refusing the request for assylum of the cogenitor? NO, he was wrong. It is true that Archer was being consistent in thinking as leaders are forced to do (and I have elaborated on before) that need must sometimes outweigh ethics, but at this point I think archer went too far. Once the situation had occurred, aside from weather or not archer saw trips actions as right or wrong, Archer had a responsibility to help a person requesting asylum. At that point Archer showed his ignorance and as others have pointed out reacted more like a politician than as a person. He hoped that mearly sending the cogenitor back would fix relations with his new friends. But obviously no slave who has been shown freedom for the first time is going to just go back to the slave master without rebellion.

 

Archer betrayed himself by not using common sense & by imitating the very vulcan politicians that would gladly justify ending the enterprise's mission. I'll admit that the line between doing what is ethically right & having to do what is necessary for the greater good, is a thin one. But taking into account the obvious point that the congenitor was not going to mearly re-embrace slavery because she was asked too, it was not the right action for archer to send her back.

 

So in the end both Arhcer & trip made poorly thought out choices and are responsible for the congenitor's death. I just hope that the two men's friendship survives since its one of my favorite aspects of the show.

 

 

 

spoiler tab added by poguemahone/

merged with Congenitor thread

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

OMG! That's an insanely long post! I'll read it in the morning... How on Earth did you have the time to write that?

[Theunicornhunter 2]

cptwright Posted on May 1 2003, 01:04 AM

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there has to be a line there that you dont cross as a representative of your planet, meeting for the first time another race of beings.

 

My point was

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that Archer didn't have a problem throwing another culture's values to the wind and creating an enemy in episodes like "Detained" - He sure as heck didn't object to contravening Klingon culture in "Judgment. If Trip disobeyed an order or violated Star Fleet protocol then he should be willing to accept the consequences; but Archer didn't make clear what protocol Trip violated that he(Archer) hasn't.

 

As for the unborn child issue I've never had children -something I wanted very much - I'd buy someone a dang library and take them to every national park in the country if they could help me have a child. Seems to me rather than blaming Trip this couple should be asking why they weren't willing to make any concessions to get something they professed to be of value to them.

 

 

dbcg -

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I agree Archer was over the top but what specific order did Trip disobey - I think that was part of the point - there were no predefined regulations for first contact so how was he to know he was violating one of them

 

 

Welcome to the new guys, meatwad and admiral kirk;

[SuraksSoul 0]

DBCG/Admiral Kirk -- Welcome aboard! Good posts. Nice and long too (DBCG).

 

 

 

After the excitement presented in this thread....

 

Bring "Regeneration" on!!!

 

I like episodes that stir debates.

[Guest Ktrek]

Considering that this episode was written by Berman and Bragga it was exceptional. It just goes to show that they do have some skill and imagination left.

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Throughout the episode I could not help but get a little "ticked" at Trip because I could see that this was going to lead to no good. The contrast of Archer away with the Vissian captain, and having such a good time and Trip interfering brought some good tension to the episode. The sad thing was, when Trip said he did just what Archer would have done, is that the captain could not objectively judge his own behaviour, in that had set a precedent on other occasions for Trip's desire to help the underdog and interfere when it was not their place. It left you the impression that Archer was more ticked about the "politcal" ramifications and his lost "friendship" than he was the welfare of an intelligent sentient being who had asked his help. It could be argued all day as to whether Trip was right in what he did but the fact that he had interfered could not have been changed. From that point on, I felt, they had a moral obligation to help the cogenitor even if they lost the friendship of the Vissians. The final scene was very moving and touching. I wonder if a bigger relational line will now be drawn where the captain will not be so buddy buddy with his crew? Picard had only two close friends on the Enterprise and he made sure that everyone understood HE was the captain. Period! So should Archer. This episode clearly shows there has to be some distance placed between the captain and his crew. One of the funniest scenes in the episode was when Archer left T'Pol in charge and she said "of what? Selecting the movies?" or something to that effect.

 

Ktrek

[cyphrx 0]

I can't believe this happened...but missed the ep.

I had my timer set for the wrong channel...I hate when that happens. Oh well here's to the re-airing I guess.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Does your UPN have an encore presentation for the weekend? Mine does... Check your local listings, you might too!

[Theunicornhunter 2]

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The sad thing was, when Trip said he did just what Archer would have done, is that the captain could not objectively judge his own behaviour, in that had set a precedent on other occasions for Trip's desire to help the underdog and interfere when it was not their place. It left you the impression that Archer was more ticked about the "politcal" ramifications and his lost "friendship" than he was the welfare of an intelligent sentient being who had asked his help.

 

 

Ktrek

I know this is just a TV show but this episode really left me in shock. I think you've hit on issue that needs to be addressed before I will feel this episode is settled.

 

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I rewatched the last couple of scenes with Archer and Trip and I swear Archer could have been giving that lecture to himself. He has interfered so many times. Trip certainly deserves some disciplinary action; but unless Archer looks at himself in the mirror and realizes the example he did set this episode won't have accomplished as much as it could have.

 

I keep thinking of "Detained" - I wonder if Archer would have been so quick to help the Suliban if the internment camp leader had taken him stargazing rather than locking him up. Gotta wonder.

[removed 0]

great episode!

 

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who does trip think he is??? why does he assume it is his responsibility to make another culture morally correct? it is not his position. i am proud of archer for finally showing that HE is the captain and that wrongful actions will be punished.

 

Also, right before a commercial break when the cogenitor asked to stay on enterprise i said out loud 'ah crap!!!' to myself. i thought she was going to be the newest member of the enterprise crew. i thought she was a good character for one episode but for a recurring role, i would have hated her. i also thought that if archer hit it off so, shall we say, famously with the other captain, why havent we heard of these guys before? well trip took care of that. trip was really stupid that episode.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I too was blown away by this episode. Completely and utterly amazing! Definitely one of the best so far. There have been so many great posts on this thread that I don't think I can anything new. I give the episode a 9.

 

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On the humour front, I liked that scene in sickbay when Trip was getting the innoculation against radiation poisoning and he asked Phlox if how long it would be effective because he wanted to spend quite a bit of time on their ship. When Phlox told him 12 years and Trip responded something like "that'll do".

[thayln 0]

This is the first time that I have ever posted anything, so I apologize for any newbie mistakes. However, this episode affected me so strongly that I feel compeled. I've been obsessed with Star Trek for more years than I care to admit to and I've done some lurking at this site in the past. The people here seem nicer than some other sites I've visited, so I'm going to take a chance that y'all don't flame me.

 

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In response to this post: Archer does know that he set a bad example in the past. He mentions it several times when he's dressing Trip down. That's one of the reasons why the ending scene was so wrenching. He's as angry at himself as he is at Trip.

 

And God, did you see both their eyes at the end? How devastating. My stomach hasn't hurt like that since another great show/obsession that shall remain nameless here went of the air.

 

What a great episode. Science Fiction should make us question things, make us think. And Star Trek has always commented on the times. Isn't it interesting that they do a show about non-interference now. Are we as Americans doing the right thing by interfering in the world? Are the people that we're trying to help actually going to be helped? Will they be better off? These are certainly questions that need to be addressed, as painful as it might be.

 

I hope that we get to see Trip and Archer work thru the emotional and personal ramifications of this episode. What is it going to do to their relationship? How is Trip going to be able to handle all that guilt that came crashing down on him. How does anyone handle feeling responsible for the death of another? Personally, that's my biggest fear. Ah well, I guess there's always fanfiction for those explorations.

 

Thanks for letting me vent,

 

thayln

 

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup." I know it's not a Star Trek quote, but I think it fits this episode.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

In my opinion…

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COGENITER WAS A TEN!

I could not ask for an episode, which incorporated every Trek element more precisely than this one did. There were no discernable plot-holes glaring out at me as I watched it and no one here has spoken of any the episode did not wrap up by it’s conclusion. The characters were real and human, learning from the past and looking towards the future just as we all do in real life. Kudos again to B&B for bringing ENTERPISE TO LIFE.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

thayln - that was a good first post.

 

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I felt worse for Trip than Archer - he really thought he was following Archer's example and he is going to have some major guilt to live through. If Archer is a decent Captain he'll help Trip work through it to become a better officer.

 

As for America interfering in the world. So far I've tried to keep mum on our actions in Iraq if that's what you're speaking of but I saw those actions as self-defense. If I wasn't so old, out-of-shape and useless I'd have considered signing up if it meant preserving the life or liberty of people I love. But like Frost's Road Not Taken we will never know what the other choice would have yielded and those of us that think about such things will always have to wonder if we did the right thing

[Guest Ktrek]

First of all I would like to WELCOME Thayln to Startrekfans.com! Thanks for posting and no you won't get the flame wars here that go on on other boards. At least I hope not!!

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Unicornhunter and Thayln bring up good points so I will rewatch the episode to see if their perception changes my thinking about Archer. However, I asked my wife what she thought and she made the same comments as I did and did not see Archer addressing himself in his speech to Trip. Anyway, it's always interesting to see how other people see shows completely differently. I guess it's like music! Everyone conjures up different images in their minds!

 

 

 

Ktrek

[CaptQuick 0]

What a great episode! Jean-Luc I'm glad you decided to watch it after all,don't let things like sex scare you away from a good episode.

 

Spoken like a true Klingon. PLEASE don't mention scratching!

 

I had similar misgivings about this ep, Jean-Luc, and I have worries that it may still have a deleted scene of Malcolm and his woman friend on the Season dvd.

 

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I think that Captain Archer was morally wrong to send the Cogenitor back. Like Captain Vere in "Billy Budd," Captain Archer must make a choice between what his conscience tells him and what his mind tells him. I believe he did wrong because I have a firm faith in a universal law.

Captain Archer apparently wavers on this faith, because he has acted both ways in the past. He acted against his conscience in "Dear Doctor" (another similarly thought provoking episode) but Archer let his conscience run free in "Detained." (among other eps) So, either the writers haven't decided on his moral stance, or they are deliberately trying to muddle it. I give the episode a 9 out of 10 because I perceive that the episode was VERY well made, it brought up an important issue, and, even though I was disgusted by their depressing moral conclusion, the issue was dramatically dealt with.

 

On a sidenote, I notice that the sideplot of Malcolm was abandoned. I wonder why?

[Theunicornhunter 2]

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I think that Captain Archer was morally wrong to send the Cogenitor back. Like Captain Vere in "Billy Budd," Captain Archer must make a choice between what his conscience tells him and what his mind tells him. I believe he did wrong because I have a firm faith in a universal law.

Captain Archer apparently wavers on this faith, because he has acted both ways in the past. He acted against his conscience in "Dear Doctor" (another similarly thought provoking episode) but Archer let his conscience run free in "Detained." (among other eps) So, either the writers haven't decided on his moral stance, or they are deliberately trying to muddle it. I give the episode a 9 out of 10 because I perceive that the episode was VERY well made, it brought up an important issue, and, even though I was disgusted by their depressing moral conclusion, the issue was dramatically dealt with.

 

On a sidenote, I notice that the sideplot of Malcolm was abandoned. I wonder why?

An interesting perspective.

 

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I agree that Archer was wrong to send her back. Should Archer now refuse to deal with the Vissian's in the future because they oppress a segment of their population? Does open exchange condone the oppression or provide opportunity to enlighten the oppressor?

 

The more I think about this the more angry I get with Archer - he was coming down on Trip for doing the exact same thing he has done.

 

 

PS I think they left it to us to understand Reed would be having breakfast with the Vissian

[removed 0]

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I agree that Archer was wrong to send her back.

"her"? lol. jk. now when i talk about 'her' ill use quotations because i dont know what to classify 'her' as.

 

anyways, i also think archer was wrong, but i am glad he is finally discipling his crew. he is starting to become the captain is is reputed to be.

[MoulinRouge 0]

Welcome, thayln. :huh:

 

I watched this episode again on tape. Once again, the final scene tore at my heart. Trip and Archer's friendship is a powerful thing; they really, really hurt each other this time. :( I find it telling that I'd rather watch these two friends hurt one another than watch either one flirt with T'Pol. Friendship is the spice of Trek. It always has been.

 

I honestly didn't get the sense that Archer was chastising himself that much, though. A little, perhaps, but not that much. I respect that he had to discipline Trip and I don't fault him for taking him to task, but something about that scene just didn't sit right with me. Perhaps it's because it's so ludicrous that Archer could do the following:

 

1.)Hand over schematics to a Vulcan surveillance station to the Andorians purely because he was pissed off that they'd lied

 

2.)Orchestrate a prison break of detainees (on the presumption that all 89 of them were innocent of anything simply because they didn't have genetic enhancements) from a militaristic planet whose inhabitants assumed the detainees were potential terrorists

 

.....and nobody died. Think about it. The Andorian commandos conveniently give the monks and surveillance agents at P'Jem three hours to clear out. Sure, Shran seems like he isn't eager to cause civilian casualties and has enough honor to give people a chance to clear out of harm's way if they aren't attacking him directly, but what if one of the other millions of Andorians happened to be in charge of the destruction force?

 

The prison break was his most egregious offense. What if that pitiable Suliban father were about to join the Cabal when he was hauled off to the detention camp, right before he had the chance to be genetically enhanced? He could have "made" Archer as a sucker willing to sympathize and played him for all he's worth. Even if he weren't, Archer couldn't possibly have known that all the other prisoners were completely innocent. Jon decided that he was offended, told T'Pol that he was going to "make an exception in this case," and then told Trip to hold off on simply beaming him out of his cell. It was acknowledged that it was dangerous space that these Suliban were flying into; they could have died en route. Colonel Gratt warned that they could be forced into a Cabal and then kill more Tandarans. Archer hates their government so much that Tandaran citizens don't matter? Sounds like the attitude many people have about American citizens because of Bush's policies.

 

However, no one was accidentally shot during the prison break. We never hear whether the detainees all made it safely through space. We never hear of more attacks on Tandaran citizens and why the devil didn't the Tandaran government raise hell with Starfleet? Trip almost dies in the desert because Zobral lured Archer the great warrior down to the surface of his planet. Whoop de doo. :blink:

 

Trip teaches an oppressed cogenitor to read, sneaks her out for a day of gun--she dies. :o It just seems too unlucky to fathom. I don't want to hate either Archer or Trip for their actions, but I need to see some more regret and acknowledgement from Archer. I keenly felt Trip's regret, but not so much Jon's. I shouldn't be ticked at Archer for doing his job, so why was I? I believe that these past actions of Archer's must be further explored to resolve this situation. I also believe that if Berman and Braga drop the ball on this conflict and don't sustain this tension between the characters they are bailing on a story with the potential for huge emotional impact. The issues of interference/non-interference can be explored through their conflict. Plus, Trip and Archer's friendship is of a depth similar to Kirk and Spock. Watching it fracture, nearly perish, and then heal itself is the stuff great storytelling is made of.

 

Consider it, B&B. Please. :)

[Theunicornhunter 2]

  I don't want to hate either Archer or Trip for their actions, but I need to see some more regret and acknowledgement from Archer.  I keenly felt Trip's regret, but not so much Jon's.    I shouldn't be ticked at Archer for doing his job, so why was I?  I believe that these past actions of Archer's must be further explored to resolve this situation. I also believe that if Berman and Braga drop the ball on this conflict and don't sustain this tension between the characters they are bailing on a story with the potential for huge emotional impact. The issues of interference/non-interference can be explored through their conflict.  Plus, Trip and Archer's friendship is of a depth similar to Kirk and Spock.  Watching it fracture, nearly perish, and then heal itself is the stuff great storytelling is made of. 

 

Consider it, B&B.  Please. 

First I need to clarify - I didnt' say I thought Archer was talking to himself; I said he could have been - as in he was reaming down on Trip using words that applied exactly to him. I wonder if B&B did this on purpose - hoping we'd get the sense of irony.

 

I have to agree that I too am mad at Archer. He laid into Trip about how Trip was privy to all his agonizing decisions yet I think we've discussed before that they've barely shared screen time this season. Archer is so all over T'Pol that he's forgotten he has a crew. Then there is the all-over-the-place example Archer has set; and then he's mad at Trip for not reading his mind. It reminded me of a parent discipling a kid who has no clue what they did wrong.

 

I agree they need to follow up on this issue and Archer needs to acknowledge he has set a bad example; I think someone else has said Archer was more concerned about having fun with the aliens than the rights of the congenitor. I get that feeling as well.

 

bysty Posted on May 2 2003, 10:47 PM

"her"? lol. jk. now when i talk about 'her' ill use quotations because i dont know what to classify 'her' as.

 

I have a hard time calling a person an it - plus I think a female actor played the part and made the mental association - my mistake