[S] Cogenitor 30.04

[Stelfan 0]

Now I've finally watched The Cogenitor, what a great episode! I think it is one of the best so far!

 

This is the real beginning of the Prime Directive, and a real good lesson that there is no right or wrong.. I rate this episode a 9.5/10, can't wait for Regeneration next week!!

[Stelfan 0]

I have to agree that I too am mad at Archer.  He laid into Trip about how Trip was privy to all his agonizing decisions yet  I think we've discussed before that they've barely shared screen time this season.  Archer is so all over T'Pol that he's forgotten he has a crew.  Then there is the all-over-the-place example Archer has set; and then he's mad at Trip for not reading his mind.  It reminded me of a parent discipling a kid who has no clue what they did wrong.

On this I disagree, simply because Trip knew exactly what he did wrong, and Archer was right in every word. I am not saying that Archer hasn't done many stupid things much similar (strange they didn't have the same consequences though).

 

One of the most interesting things in the series is watching Archer grow into a real captain..

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I have to agree that I too am mad at Archer.  He laid into Trip about how Trip was privy to all his agonizing decisions yet  I think we've discussed before that they've barely shared screen time this season.  Archer is so all over T'Pol that he's forgotten he has a crew.  Then there is the all-over-the-place example Archer has set; and then he's mad at Trip for not reading his mind.  It reminded me of a parent discipling a kid who has no clue what they did wrong.

On this I disagree, simply because Trip knew exactly what he did wrong, and Archer was right in every word. I am not saying that Archer hasn't done many stupid things much similar (strange they didn't have the same consequences though).

 

One of the most interesting things in the series is watching Archer grow into a real captain..

I'll still have to disagree - Trip's words to the Captain were "I did what you would have done"...so I don't think he really understood. That's why it was so pathetic to me.

I agree that this episode is probably laying the groundwork for the Prime Directive. A codified procedure like the prime directive is important. When it is spelled out you know what your parameters are. I also hope that Archer uses this incident to help build his officer rather than cut him off. Beyond that I have no rational argument but I watched this again was even more ticked with Archer.

[MoulinRouge 0]

Lots of posts I've read elsewhere have expressed mixed feelings about Archer's actions. Most acknowledge that he had a right and a duty to discipline Trip in this instance but said that the scene left a bad taste in their mouths. I'm the same way, Unicorn hunter.

 

It is partly an emotional reaction, I think, but the knowledge that Archer would have behaved the same way on many an occasion contributes to that uneasy feeling about him being so harsh with Trip. I don't think he should have coddled Trip, but perhaps I didn't sense enough self admonishment on Archer's part. Perhaps that's part of the problem. I ended up wanting to throttle them both before the episode was done. Charles was very mistreated by those "please" and "thank you" Vissians. Anyone with a heart would have wanted to help. Pity that a firm Prime Directive with some parameters and methods for taking action properly wasn't yet in place. Perhaps it's a bit harder to condemn Trip--even though he was wrong to charge in--because he noticed the oppressed being while the sparkling technology and tall, luscious babes occupied the attention of the others?

[SuraksSoul 0]

After viewing this episode for the second time, I concur with Archer's choice. Guess I wasn't paying much attention to his reprimand to Trip the first time, but it just made more sense this time through.

As for Trip saying that he was doing what Archer would have done....Archer responded that he did not know what he would have done -- in this particular situation, not generally. Also Archer got put in the hot seat for Trip's actions, so his frustration is understandable.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Since I came online back in Oct. 02 and began visiting Trek MB’s never have I read so many post’s which speak of Archer the character instead of Bakula the actor, evidence to me ENT has passed a milestone in it’s growth. Long Live Enterprise!

[Syperphobia 0]

I loved this episode!  One of the best so far!  Allthough, I hated the ending!

 

Click for Spoiler:

This was an excellent episode, and I completely agree with what Trip did with the Cogenitor.  Infact, I would have done the same myself, perhaps gone even further.  I'm surprised he didn't tell her to keep this newly discovered world of experrience so that she could liberrate more of her gender.  I saw her as a sex-slave, and the attitude of the couple made me sick!  She has all the potentional as they did.  She was a slave, and Trip taught her that she didn't have to be a slave anymore.  I completely dissagreed with Archer's reaction to this situation.

 

Trip, in my mind, is officially a better character than Archer!

CJLP doesnt understand the rules of alien species... you are dealing with another world and if they want to have sex slaves as their co species then so be it. If we get involved then they will have an intergalatic war. I believe that having sex slaves is wrong, but gosh to go to another world and say it is wrong is just as wrong and discrimintory. The cogenetor never complained about being held in captivity, if she did then my feelings would be with Trip. He violated her privacy and entered her room. If I was the cogenetor I would of screamed and called security.

[Syperphobia 0]

Lots of posts I've read elsewhere have expressed mixed feelings about Archer's actions.  Most acknowledge that he had a right and a duty to discipline Trip in this instance but said that the scene left a bad taste in their mouths. I'm the same way, Unicorn hunter.

 

It is partly an emotional reaction, I think, but the knowledge that Archer would have behaved the same way on many an occasion contributes to that uneasy feeling about him being so harsh with Trip.  I don't think he should have coddled Trip, but perhaps I didn't sense enough self admonishment on Archer's part.  Perhaps that's part of the problem.  I ended up wanting to throttle them both before the episode was done. Charles was very mistreated by those "please" and "thank you" Vissians.  Anyone with a heart would have wanted to help.  Pity that a firm Prime Directive with some parameters and methods for taking action properly wasn't yet in place.    Perhaps it's a bit harder to condemn Trip--even though he was wrong to charge in--because he noticed the oppressed being while the sparkling technology and tall, luscious babes occupied the attention of the others?

Trip should of went through the proper channels in dealing with the situation. He never even consulted the captain to see what he had to say. He asked two other aliens, they would not understand the quality of humanity. One needs to be human to know a human's fight for liberation. Now that Trip overcrossed the boundries of a growing alien relationship one can confirm that now their relationship isnt as strong as it was before. They might not even be as nice to Archer when he travels back in their space. They lost a valuable developing friendship.

[MoulinRouge 0]

I'm not arguing that Trip didn't go about things the wrong way; I only point out that he has, in fact, followed the example set by his hero to the letter. Archer has set a poor example and now it's bitten him on the butt via the friend Jonathan loves the most.

 

Archer may have had no practical alternative to giving back the cogenitor, but the fact that Charles didn't call security on Trip is telling. The Vissians were sickening no matter how much they said "please," "thank you," and "come have consequence free sex with me, Malcolm." I hated them.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I loved this episode!  One of the best so far!  Allthough, I hated the ending!

 

Click for Spoiler:

This was an excellent episode, and I completely agree with what Trip did with the Cogenitor.  Infact, I would have done the same myself, perhaps gone even further.  I'm surprised he didn't tell her to keep this newly discovered world of experrience so that she could liberrate more of her gender.  I saw her as a sex-slave, and the attitude of the couple made me sick!  She has all the potentional as they did.  She was a slave, and Trip taught her that she didn't have to be a slave anymore.  I completely dissagreed with Archer's reaction to this situation.

 

Trip, in my mind, is officially a better character than Archer!

CJLP doesnt understand the rules of alien species... you are dealing with another world and if they want to have sex slaves as their co species then so be it. If we get involved then they will have an intergalatic war. I believe that having sex slaves is wrong, but gosh to go to another world and say it is wrong is just as wrong and discrimintory. The cogenetor never complained about being held in captivity, if she did then my feelings would be with Trip. He violated her privacy and entered her room. If I was the cogenetor I would of screamed and called security.

The Cogenitor wasn't a sex slave. The Cogenitor was necessary for reproduction of their species. It (for lack of a better term) wasn't there to provide "pleasure" to the couple but to provide an enzyme necessary for reproduction.

[thayln 0]

Let's look at this chronologically:

 

1) Andorian Incedent - Archer's interference at P'Jem which increases tensions with the Vulcans.

 

2) Detained - Archer interferes again, because he's pissed and also, because children are involved. In the end he questions whether the other prisoners will survive and wonders if he did the right thing.

 

3) Desert Crossing - Archer refuses to get involved, even though the people asking for his help might have a legitimate complaint.

 

4) The Comminicator - Archer is willing to let himself and Malcom be killed to avoid contaminating a sub-warp culture. He admits to T'Pol that he's afraid that they still did damage, anyway.

 

5) The Cogenitor - Archer dresses Trip down for going outside the chain of command to interfere with a society that they had only known for 2 or 3 days.

 

I don't see Archer as having been inconsistent. He is learning from his mistakes. He says that Trip knows how Archer has wrestled with these issues, which leads me to believe that there has been a lot of soul searching going on that we don't get to see. It is rather, implied.

 

I'm really enjoying theses converstions. This place is so stimulating.

 

Y'all have a good night,

thayln

 

"And far out beyond any sensor's range, undetected in the cold dark wastes, something stretched, and strained intolerably--and slowly began to tear..." Diane Duane

[Theunicornhunter 2]

Let's look at this chronologically:

 

1) Andorian Incedent - Archer's interference at P'Jem which increases tensions with the Vulcans.

 

2) Detained - Archer interferes again, because he's pissed and also, because children are involved.  In the end he questions  whether the other prisoners will survive and wonders if he did the right thing.

 

3) Desert Crossing - Archer refuses to get involved, even though the people asking for his help might have a legitimate complaint.

 

4) The Comminicator - Archer is willing to let himself and Malcom be killed to avoid contaminating a sub-warp culture.  He admits to T'Pol that he's afraid that they still did damage, anyway.

 

5) The Cogenitor - Archer dresses Trip down for going outside the chain of command to interfere with a society that they had only known for 2 or 3 days.

 

I don't see Archer as having been inconsistent.  He is learning from his mistakes.  He says that Trip knows how Archer has wrestled with these issues, which leads me to believe that there has been a lot of soul searching going on that we don't get to see.  It is rather, implied.  

 

I'm really enjoying theses converstions.  This place is so stimulating.

 

Y'all have a good night, 

thayln

 

"And far out beyond any sensor's range, undetected in the cold dark wastes, something stretched, and strained intolerably--and slowly began to tear..." Diane Duane

 

I understand what you're saying but I'd like to add the following to the chronology:

 

Civilization - he helps without being asked

 

Rogue Planet - helps when asked

 

Dear Doctor - refuses to help begging, dying people

 

Marauders - Archer convinces people they need his help (Trip actually raises the possibility of their plan being a longshot)

 

The Crossing - blows alien race to kingdom come

 

Judgment - helps refugees (then himself by escaping)

 

The Breach - orders Phlox to breach his ethics to save person who consciously refuses help and threatens to attack the planet to help away team

 

Cogenitor - it's not his place to interfere

 

I admit at this point I am just really ticked at Archer - I hope it goes away

 

edited intro sentence

Edited May 7, 2003 by TheUnicornHunter

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I read the announcement page - I am not happy:

 

Click for Spoiler:

Okay - I don't want a vengeful, Rambo styled Trip. Their new direction may be going a little too far.

[cptwright 1]

WOW this episode sure did spark a lot of controversy, eh. well its good to talk about.

TRIPP was wrong, ARCHER was right, and ARCHER is learning, thats what happens when what your doing has never been done before by anyone on your planet.

[MoulinRouge 0]

Their body language seemed a bit uncomfortable with one another. Considering the emergency, it isn't as if Trip and Jon had time to argue. In fact, both seemed more professional, less happy go lucky. Cogenitor seems to have been a wake up call. They weren't sharing happy breakfast time or bonding or anything of the like.

 

Trip, Jon, Malcolm....comfort......drool......

[thayln 0]

Click for Spoiler:

Unicorn Hunter wrote: "They seemed to be on reasonable terms tonight - considering the circumstances except I didn't get the scene around the display table when everyone but Trip left. Was Archer ignoring him or just uptight?"

 

They weren't making eye contact, but I don't think Archer was ignoring him. I think they're just real uncomfortable with each other right now. It sucks to have to be the boss of a friend. I've worked for friends and managed friends and both positions are really, really hard.

 

Should I admit that I watched the episode 3 times last night? Nah.

 

Thayln

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[Syperphobia 0]

Click for Spoiler:

When Trip becomes a hard as* becuse of of the alien killingout personal family members will make an exciting new twist to the plot. I personally feel that Trip was always a dinamic character, but nether the less young and immature in his ways. As we see in 'Cogenetor' he risked a growing and meaninful relationship with overadvanced species. Hopefully, the relationship of Reed and the other woman species will make up for the loss worthy need of a growing relationship. Trip will become vengeful true, but I personally think that Archer would think that being vengeful will not be the true answer to solve their problem. I predict that Trips irrational thinking will lead Enterprise into risky business that will lead to 'shock and awe' results.

 

 

I added the spoiler tag, poguemahone

Edited May 8, 2003 by poguemahone

[MoulinRouge 0]

The Vissians were awful. Just because they have pretty, sparkling technology as opposed to the Tandarans doesn't make what they did any less reprehensible. :o That episode still resonates emotionally for me.

 

As for Trip, we shall see what happens, won't we? I doubt he'll go quite so far as to bomb the Xindi homeworld without Starfleet permission. That would be a line he couldn't cross back over. He's Trip, not George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld's evil spawn. :o :o :o :o Gack.

[Admiral Kirk 1]

I'm looking forward to this episode. i thrive on mayhem :devil: .

[cassidy 0]

whats the title?

[Takara_Soong 4]

whats the title?

This thread is to discuss the April 30 episode Congenitor.

[cptwright 1]

The Vissians were awful. Just because they have pretty, sparkling technology as opposed to the Tandarans doesn't make what they did any less reprehensible. That episode still resonates emotionally for me.

 

As for Trip, we shall see what happens, won't we?  I doubt he'll go quite so far as to bomb the Xindi homeworld without Starfleet permission.  That would be a line he couldn't cross back over. He's Trip, not George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld's evil spawn.     Gack.

the vissians werent awful people, the third person is how they procreate, not a sex slave or anythnig like that. it was society that made the very, very minority cogenitor the way it was. they werent being cruel or anything like that. its not something we as humans would do, but this was a different species, and different ways. going off into space meeting new aliens, we need to keep an open mind with others traditions, and ways, or at the very least just keep the negatives to ourselves. im sure we do many things that other races would find apalling as well. as for bush and rumsfeld, they arent bad people, and the war with iraq was necessary.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

The Vissians were awful.   Just because they have pretty, sparkling technology as opposed to the Tandarans doesn't make what they did any less reprehensible.      That episode still resonates emotionally for me.

 

As for Trip, we shall see what happens, won't we?     I doubt he'll go quite so far as to bomb the Xindi homeworld without Starfleet permission.  That would be a line he couldn't cross back over.   He's Trip, not George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld's evil spawn.             Gack.

the vissians werent awful people, the third person is how they procreate, not a sex slave or anythnig like that. it was society that made the very, very minority cogenitor the way it was. they werent being cruel or anything like that. its not something we as humans would do, but this was a different species, and different ways. going off into space meeting new aliens, we need to keep an open mind with others traditions, and ways, or at the very least just keep the negatives to ourselves. im sure we do many things that other races would find apalling as well. as for bush and rumsfeld, they arent bad people, and the war with iraq was necessary.

I'm afraid this is exactly something humans would do. I've seen two different takes on Cogenitor - some have drawn parrallels to slavery - some to women's rights. Personally I think the analogy to either could be made. The cogenitor may not have suffered brutality but not all practices of slavery in human history involved brutality; nevertheless, a gilded cage is still a cage. As for the women't rights issue - well the cogenitor's status wasn't so different than that of women in much of human history; at times forbidden to own property, obtain an education; seek gainful employment, vote etc. In fact their sole purpose for existence was pretty much to bear children for their husbands; and they didn't always have a choice who they were going to end up procreating with. So I don't see how the Vissians were that different from humans except our social awareness developed along with our technology.

 

In response to the many posts on the cogenitor thread - I have a hard time understanding why it is okay to judge another human culture and even impose our values on them but we shouldn't do that with aliens. Everyone has made a big deal about how beneficial a relationship with the Vissians could be. We could have similar opportunities today if we didn't worry about political prisoners performing slave labor, sweat shops, child labor etc. The way I see it there is either a universal right and wrong or there's not. If there is we should apply the same ethical standards to all beings; if there isn't then give your officers some leeway for not knowing what the moral code of the moment is.

 

edited for grammar

Edited May 9, 2003 by TheUnicornHunter

[MoulinRouge 0]

You make excellent arguments, Unicorn Hunter. I'd like to see how opinions on Archer's refusal to grant asylum break down between male and female viewers. That would be interesting.

[thayln 0]

I agree that Unicorn Hunter makes excellent arguments, but how can we decide if the Cogenitors are virtual slaves or what when we don't know all the facts. We don't know why they are treated as they are. Maybe they're so emotionally unstable that they can't handle stimuli. Maybe the role they play in procreation is so intense that they burn out. We just don't know. And to jump to conclusions and try to force your values on a society without understanding theirs will cause nothing but trouble on both sides of the argument. That's one of the fundamental mistakes that Trip made.

 

I hope that we meet the Vissians again, so that we can learn more about them. Until then, I'm personally suspending judgement on whether the Cogenitors are mistreated or not.

[cptwright 1]

The Vissians were awful.   Just because they have pretty, sparkling technology as opposed to the Tandarans doesn't make what they did any less reprehensible.   :(   That episode still resonates emotionally for me.

 

As for Trip, we shall see what happens, won't we?  B)   I doubt he'll go quite so far as to bomb the Xindi homeworld without Starfleet permission.  That would be a line he couldn't cross back over.   He's Trip, not George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld's evil spawn.             Gack.

the vissians werent awful people, the third person is how they procreate, not a sex slave or anythnig like that. it was society that made the very, very minority cogenitor the way it was. they werent being cruel or anything like that. its not something we as humans would do, but this was a different species, and different ways. going off into space meeting new aliens, we need to keep an open mind with others traditions, and ways, or at the very least just keep the negatives to ourselves. im sure we do many things that other races would find apalling as well. as for bush and rumsfeld, they arent bad people, and the war with iraq was necessary.

I'm afraid this is exactly something humans would do. I've seen two different takes on Cogenitor - some have drawn parrallels to slavery - some to women's rights. Personally I think the analogy to either could be made. The cogenitor may not have suffered brutality but not all practices of slavery in human history involved brutality; nevertheless, a gilded cage is still a cage. As for the women't rights issue - well the cogenitor's status wasn't so different than that of women in much of human history; at times forbidden to own property, obtain an education; seek gainful employment, vote etc. In fact their sole purpose for existence was pretty much to bear children for their husbands; and they didn't always have a choice who they were going to end up procreating with. So I don't see how the Vissians were that different from humans except our social awareness developed along with our technology.

 

In response to the many posts on the cogenitor thread - I have a hard time understanding why it is okay to judge another human culture and even impose our values on them but we shouldn't do that with aliens. Everyone has made a big deal about how beneficial a relationship with the Vissians could be. We could have similar opportunities today if we didn't worry about political prisoners performing slave labor, sweat shops, child labor etc. The way I see it there is either a universal right and wrong or there's not. If there is we should apply the same ethical standards to all beings; if there isn't then give your officers some leeway for not knowing what the moral code of the moment is.

 

edited for grammar

how can you compare an alien race's procreation process, to womens rights. or any other thing human for that matter. and im not trying to impose my morality on anyone here on earth, but universally HUMAN rights relate to all HUMANS, thus people of earth, not humanoids, otherwords aliens.if you go out and pick a fight with every race whos customs or ways you dont agree with. were all in trouble, might as well go jump off a building now. also only 3 percent of the visians were cogenitors, there has to be someway to divy them up to have babies, or the race of visians would die out. their not used in sex, just used for procreation. leave it at that.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

cptwright Posted on May 12 2003, 01:33 AM

how can you compare an alien race's procreation process, to womens rights. or any other thing human for that matter. and im not trying to impose my morality on anyone here on earth, but universally HUMAN rights relate to all HUMANS, thus people of earth, not humanoids, otherwords aliens.if you go out and pick a fight with every race whos customs or ways you dont agree with. were all in trouble, might as well go jump off a building now. also only 3 percent of the visians were cogenitors, there has to be someway to divy them up to have babies, or the race of visians would die out. their not used in sex, just used for procreation. leave it at that.

I believe I stated there was either a universal right and wrong or there wasn't. I didn't maintain my position on either. On what do you base the assumption that there is a universal "human" right? That is an opinion - many people, cultures and societies througout human history have disagreed with that. What gives human societies the right to impose their beliefs on other human societies? I guess I am asking what is your basis or standard for asserting a universal human right - other than who has the biggest weapons.

 

As for the analogy of women's rights. Have you read much history - the treatment of the cogenitor mirrors pretty exactly the historical treatment of women - their sole purpose was for procreation. In Victorian times a proper gentleman would have a mistress for sex and a wife to bear his children (obviously some contact was required but only enough to accomplish the purpose) That way of thinking still exists in a lot of places. I was even once told "my place was to be a wife and mother and I didn't need a college education for that" Well he married somebody else and I went to college.

 

My last point and I re-iterate was that if there is not a universal right or wrong (or at least a uniform "expressed - preferably in writing" code of behavior) - then how can you expect someone to know how to act? I go back to my analogy of parenting. If you do not provide a consistent pattern of behavior your children won't learn the proper behavior for certain situations. Archer had a history if inconsistency yet was mad that someone else couldn't read him.

 

thayln Posted on May 11 2003, 11:32 AM

... how can we decide if the Cogenitors are virtual slaves or what when we don't know all the facts. .. Maybe they're so emotionally unstable that they can't handle stimuli.

 

Emotional instability was one of the arguments for keeping women out of responsible positions in employment and government. I think the neurological scans showed their brain functions were identical to the other genders.

[MoulinRouge 0]

Unicorn Hunter, you rock. That is exactly the argument used to keep women out of power. You articulate so well why the treatment of the cogenitor by the Vissians disturbed me so much. I still want to throttle Trip for going about things the way he did, yet I think he's incredibly gallant for calling a spade a spade and wanting to help. Trip's an intergalactic feminist at heart LOL!

[cptwright 1]

your forgeting one thing, IT wasnt male, or female. so he wasnt a feminist. anyway, basic human rights are looked at by all freedom loving people, are they not, i know i beleive women have the same rights as man, black has the same rights as white, and so on. every human on this planet deserves the right to pursue their own life the way they want, except murder crime etc., the only places that dont do this on earth are those dictatorships, and other forms of government that repress their people for their own gain, which by the way are the people with the biggest guns. but mostly, those repressed people express a wantin desire for freedom, and THEIR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. ALL MEN WERE CREATED EQUAL. now onto startreks time. earth is pretty much united as one planet, thus humans have human rights, also to be part of the federation is there not bylaws about such things, no slavery, and any other kind of infringements of any beings rights. so therefore we are in a way imposing our views of inalienable rights, but its the choice of whoever enters the federation to do so. no if your not in the federation, or its a first contact situation, we have no right to tell them they are wrong in what their doing, just as much as they dont have a right to tell us about our business, TILL they want to join the federation, then there are guidlines that must be followed. but your also going to have to look at it from the standpoint of there people, if only 3 percent of your population was the third party needed to procreate, your going to have to have somekind of method to spread out the ability to have children, and protect these attributes. without them the world dies. no way to keep going generation after generation. i dont have an answer that would work, do you. so judge not lest ye be judged. walk a mile in their shoes first, then tell me how you would do it. its not like they just throw them around day after day, its a process, i dont know what else to tell ya. but i know you dont have a perfect answer either, im sure none of us do.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

your forgeting one thing, IT wasnt male, or female. so he wasnt a feminist. anyway, basic human rights are looked at by all freedom loving people, are they not, i know i beleive women have the same rights as man, black has the same rights as white, and so on. every human on this planet deserves the right to pursue their own life the way they want, except murder crime etc., the only places that dont do this on earth are those dictatorships, and other forms of government that repress their people for their own gain, which by the way are the people with the biggest guns. but mostly, those repressed people express a wantin desire for freedom, and THEIR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. ALL MEN WERE CREATED EQUAL. now onto startreks time. earth is pretty much united as one planet, thus humans have human rights, also to be part of the federation is there not bylaws about such things, no slavery, and any other kind of infringements of any beings rights. so therefore we are in a way imposing our views of inalienable rights, but its the choice of whoever enters the federation to do so. no if your not in the federation, or its a first contact situation, we have no right to tell them they are wrong in what their doing, just as much as they dont have a right to tell us about our business, TILL they want to join the federation, then there are guidlines that must be followed. but your also going to have to look at it from the standpoint of there people, if only 3 percent of your population was the third party needed to procreate, your going to have to have somekind of method to spread out the ability to have children, and protect these attributes. without them the world dies. no way to keep going generation after generation. i dont have an answer that would work, do you. so judge not lest ye be judged. walk a mile in their shoes first, then tell me how you would do it. its not like they just throw them around day after day, its a process, i dont know what else to tell ya. but i know you dont have a perfect answer either, im sure none of us do.

I understand what you're saying and most "freedom loving people" do agree somewhat (not perfectly) on what basic human rights are. But the words "all men are created equal" are from the declaration of independence which is a man made construct. My question was more what basis do freedom loving peoples have to impose their views on non freedom loving peoples. I'm not talking about what I believe or how I think things should be. I am talking about the ability to say with absolute certainty that something is "right" or something is "wrong". Without some "absolute" standard everything is relative.

 

If there is some absolute standard then I don't why it would stop at the edge of our planet's atmosphere. Now, for reasons of prudence it's not a good idea to tick off people with bigger weapons. That applies to other humans or "aliens". So Trip was definitely not prudent.

 

As for a better answer - I think I've stated this in another post - if someone could help me have a child I would be willing to help them achieve something they want in return. If the congenitor wanted a book I'd buy it one. In fact since the congenitor only participated in the procreative act I don't see why it couldn't work during the day since no one was at home to procreate with anyway. The fact that the Vissians cared nothing for the "person" that could give them what they presumably wanted leaves me with a very bad opinion of them.

 

Of course - I think the whole idea of this episode was to get us thinking - about ourselves our views on culture etc and it seems to have done that for a lot of people.