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poguemahone

Is Starfleet Military?

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I feel that T'Pol will remain as the first officer for a few reasons.

 

1) She has command experience, more so than Trip.

 

2) Trip is too close to the situation, with his sister being killed by the Xindi, to be objective in making decisions.

 

3) After the events in "The Cogenitor" I think that Archer would be a little hesitant to trust Trip's judgement as a first officer.

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Wait a minute.  What about the Intrepid?  I think that was what it was called, the ship that got eaten by the giant ameoba.  Wasn't that a starfleet vessel?  It was crewed by Vulcans. 

 

I thought Spock was the first Vulcan to attend the accademy on Earth, not the first Vulcan in Starfleet.  If Vulcan was a member of the Federation, wouldn't all their ships answer to Starfleet?

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE INTREPID......... BUT YOUR QUESTION ABOUT ANSWERING TO STARFLEET.........WELL THAT'S A GOOD ONE.......... I'D LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT MYSELF......THE VULCAN'S ALWAYS SEEM TO WANT TO DO THINGS THIER WAY AND GIVE STARFLEET A HARD TIME ABOUT WHAT THEY DO.......SO, REALLY WHERE DOES EVERTHING FIT IN......

I don't know about the Intrepid.

This might answer your question about the Vulcan ships in Starfleet:

 

ARTICLES OF FEDERATION

Chapter VII: Action with Respect to Threats of the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression

Article 45

 

In order to enable the United Federation to take urgent military measures, all members so capable, shall assign contingents of their armed forces to Star Fleet to be employed as a single peace-keeping force of the United Federation of Planets. All contingents so assigned, and for the duration of their assignment, shall hold full faith and loyalty to the United Federation of Planets and the protection of the purposes and principles of these articles of Federation;

 

http://www.clearlight.com/~sfc/documents/aof.html#ch8

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In my opinoin, they are probaly gonna keep T'Pol as first officer and Trip as second officer. However, this would be a good conflict they could have on the show. Trip may finally want the position since he was suppose to get it from the start.

 

:laugh:

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Starfleet isn't Military, this was established in "The Expanse".  My guess is she will sport either civillian clothes or a Starfleet uniform.  She can't join Starfleet though as Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. :laugh:

It was indicated that Starfleet isn't military, but I don't know that this is a proper distinction for them to have made. Everything about Starfleet in all 5 series has pointed to a military structure. Never has there been mention of any other "military" and it's Starfleet that fights Earth's wars. This could be an oversight by the writers similar to the one in Relics with Scotty and Geordi beaming through the shields.

 

In the first episode it was my feeling that Trip should have been command after Archer was hurt. T'Pol was just there as an adviser and observer. I thought it was improper for her to take command. That said, I think the Vulcans will allow her to take part in the mission in hindsight and her resignation will be forgotten about. Things will remain status quo.

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I think Starfleet is a multi-purpose space program.  While it can function as a military, you wouldn't call it a military.  That's why I think they made referrence to Starfleet not being military.

Could be, but we've never heard of a separate military before now though.

 

I think Starfleet was considered military all along. This statement in The Expanse Pt. 1 was either a mistake or simply that Starfleet has not been designated as a military force yet. Surely if there was a Military aside from Starfleet we would have heard about in the Dominion or Klingon wars.

 

In Deep Space Nine episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost (Season 4)the following references are made to indicate that Starfleet is Military.

 

  • In the President's office Sisko and Admiral Leyton are discussing the threat of the changelings to Earth's security. The President questions the need for blood screenings and phaser sweeps. Sisko says "They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine". The President says "I'm sure they have, but I hope you'll keep in mind that this is Earth. Not a military installation."
     
     
     
     
     
  • Later in the episode when Mr. Sisko refuses to take a blood screening, Cpt. Sisko explains to him that he has to take it because "We've got 'civilian' families living on starships and at Starfleet installations all over the Federation..." "...if we test the family members of one Starfleet officer, we must test them all!" Why call them "civilian" family members if the Starfleet members themselves are civilian?
     
     
     
     
  • He goes on later to speak with the President again and mentions "armed troops" when referring to Starfleet personnel in the streets of Earth. He also speaks about the Jem'hadar and how they will not "limit themselves to Military targets" making the inference that a "Military Target" would be a Starfleet base, soldier or facility of some kind.
     
     
     
     
  • Sisko goes on to accuse Admiral Leyton of trying to "seize control of earth and place it under Military Rule."
     
     
     
     
  • In the end Sisko asks Leyton if he thinks that the other Federation members will sit by and allow Earth to be taken over by a Military dictatorship.

 

Clearly by the time of TNG, DS9 and Voyager the Federation is a Military Force.

 

Below is the Starfleet charter, in it you will see many references to "Starfleet Military"

 

http://ussforce.topcities.com/starfleet_charter.htm

 

This is quoted from the website above:

 

Article I: Establishment/Purpose

 

Section 1:  There is hereby established a Starfleet interplanetary military force, to be under the direct cognizance of the Federation Council and President. If there is no current Federation Council, Starfleet will assume that role until one is created.

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Well, this is what I think happens:

 

Starfleet starts off as a space program in ENT, then due to the Romulan War, absorbs Earth's military, then grows to absorb more Earth programs, eventually becoming this massive, multi-purpose space program. Make sense?

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Well, this is what I think happens:

 

Starfleet starts off as a space program in ENT, then due to the Romulan War, absorbs Earth's military, then grows to absorb more Earth programs, eventually becoming this massive, multi-purpose space program.  Make sense?

Multi-purposed yes, but today's military is also multi-purposed. We know that by the time of TNG, DS9 and VOY Starfleet is a military. In fact we know it is Military in the time of TOS and there is a reference that leads me to the conclusion that they are military in the days of Archer.

 

 

[*]In TOS there is an episode entitled Court Martial where Kirk is put on trial for the supposed death of a crew member.

 

 

[*]In Enterprise episode First Flight, Archer is telling T'Pol the story of how he and Robinson stole the ship. When the story comes to a conclusion Archer says "We managed to avoid a Court Martial but we they grounded us for 3 months."

 

Well, what is a court martial?

 

From Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:

court martial noun [C] plural court martials

FORMAL courts martial

(a trial in) a military court for members of the armed forces

 

From the UltraLingua English Dictionary

1. court-martial [v.] 1. To condemn in a military court. , 2. To subject to trial by court-martial. 

 

2. court-martial [n.] 1. A military court to try serious breaches of martial law. , 2. A trial by court martial.

 

3. special court-martial [n.] A court-martial to try soldiers for offences less serious that than those committed in action; consists of at least three officers.

 

4. drumhead court-martial [n.] A military court convened to hear urgent charges of offences committed in action.

 

You may not want to call it "military" but the evidence suggests that it is military. I now believe that the quote from The Expanse is a MIS-worded error by the writers.

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I don't think Starfleet is a full military, but only functions as one when needed. Besides, in the military, everyone carries guns. In Starfleet, how often do they carry phasers aside from alien attacks and security teams? When I look at today's military, I see trained killers who's job is to protect the nation. When I look at Starfleet, I see engineers, scientists, and so on, who's job is to explore the galaxy. That's why I don't think of Starfleet as being military, not fully anyway.

 

Besides, did the Enterprise-D feel like a military ship? Since when did military ships have families aboard? :laugh:

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IMHO, Starfleet is military and the comment in the Expanse may have been meant as a reference to "Earth Military Forces" as in the military that is assigned to protecting the planet and to keeping peace on Earth. Starfleet is a military force but their military function has not been utilized much. As for all military personel carrying guns that is not accurate. If I am not mistaken, and VBG or JTKirk1 can correct me if I am wrong as they were both military, most millitary personel are only armed in times of combat. It is my understanding that aboard naval vessels during times of peace it is not permitted for personel to carry side arms unless ordered to do so by thier CO.

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IMHO, Starfleet is military and the comment in the Expanse may have been meant as a reference to "Earth Military Forces"  as in the military that is assigned to protecting the planet and to keeping peace on Earth.  Starfleet is a military force but their military function has not been utilized much.  As for all military personel carrying guns that is not accurate.  If I am not mistaken, and VBG or JTKirk1 can correct me if I am wrong as they were both military, most millitary personel are only armed in times of combat.  It is my understanding that aboard naval vessels during times of peace it is not permitted for personel to carry side arms unless ordered to do so by thier CO.

In general that would is correct there are time other than war time that we were premitted to carry side arms. In all situations it involves with security and law enforcment other than that in the Navy you really don't carry a gun. In other words you got it right.

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Besides, did the Enterprise-D feel like a military ship?  Since when did military ships have families aboard? :laugh:

As for having families aboard starships it makes perfect sense. I agree our current military does not allow families on the vessels, but I believe that they do have living accomodations on the military bases that allow for the families to live there. And the difference between our current military and Starfleet in this respect is that our military officers receive leave time to spend with their families, which starfleet offices receive shore leave as well, but it is not feasible for a starship to return each member to their home planet each time they receive leave time for them to see their families, or else that is all that they would get done doing. And they would not receive as many recruits to starfleet if the individuals knew that they could only see their families every few years if that often, so it makes more sense to allow them to take their families with them. Having the families on board also allows for a higher moral aboard ship.

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True, but it seems the Military's perpose is to defend the nation where as Starfleet's purpose is to explore the unkown, help alien cultures develop, defend the Federation against alien threats, colonize planets, and so forth. So, you guys trying to tell me that a military does all that? It sure doesn't seem like it.

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I don't think Starfleet is a full military, but only functions as one when needed.  Besides, in the military, everyone carries guns.  In Starfleet, how often do they carry phasers aside from alien attacks and security teams?  When I look at today's military, I see trained killers who's job is to protect the nation.  When I look at Starfleet, I see engineers, scientists, and so on, who's job is to explore the galaxy.  That's why I don't think of Starfleet as being military, not fully anyway.

 

Besides, did the Enterprise-D feel like a military ship?  Since when did military ships have families aboard? :laugh:

Ever hear of the Army Corps Of Engineers? How about the explorers that went to the moon, like Colonel Buzz Aldrin or Cpt. Pete Conrad. Everything in Starfleet has it's counterpart in the United States military.

 

As far as this goes:

 

Besides, in the military, everyone carries guns.

 

I only carried a weapon about 15% to 20% of the time I was in the Army. Not everyone carries a weapon all the time in the military. In fact not everyone carries a weapon at all. There are chaplains that never carry weapons (I don't say gun because an M-16 isn't a gun, it's an assault rifle). How about the cooks and doctors? Do they have weapons all the time? No, they don't.

 

You're bringing assumptions about what you think the military is into what you want to think Starfleet is. You have to have a basic understanding of just what the military is and what all of their functions are.

 

How many families are there on Enterprise NX-01? How many families are there on NCC-1701? How many families are there on Defiant? In the Army, I used to drive 2 miles from my barracks to a friends house (on Fort Hood) and have dinner with him, his wife and his daughter. So families are with the military.

 

Try to set aside your disdain of the military and your dislike of weapons to assess this. The fact of Starfleet being military has now been established in 3 of the 5 series. Enterprise, TOS and DS9. I know there are also references in TNG but it will take a little time to dig them out.

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True, but it seems the Military's perpose is to defend the nation where as Starfleet's purpose is to explore the unkown, help alien cultures develop, defend the Federation against alien threats, colonize planets, and so forth.  So, you guys trying to tell me that a military does all that?  It sure doesn't seem like it.

That is because you only see the side of the military that the media wants us to see, because those are the aspects that bring in ratings for them. The military has scientific divisions, they perform humanitarian aid to other countries (civilizations), they are called upon to aid communities in times of crisis from natural disasters, and they aid in insuring the safety of refugees as well as defending our borders from other countries.

 

As for exploring the unknown, who do you think has completed most of the undersea exploration that has been completed?

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True, but it seems the Military's perpose is to defend the nation where as Starfleet's purpose is to explore the unkown, help alien cultures develop, defend the Federation against alien threats, colonize planets, and so forth.  So, you guys trying to tell me that a military does all that?  It sure doesn't seem like it.

That is because you only see the side of the military that the media wants us to see, because those are the aspects that bring in ratings for them. The military has scientific divisions, they perform humanitarian aid to other countries (civilizations), they are called upon to aid communities in times of crisis from natural disasters, and they aid in insuring the safety of refugees as well as defending our borders from other countries.

 

As for exploring the unknown, who do you think has completed most of the undersea exploration that has been completed?

And the exploration of the moon. A few civilians went there but the majority of the moonwalkers were Military.

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True, but it seems the Military's perpose is to defend the nation where as Starfleet's purpose is to explore the unkown, help alien cultures develop, defend the Federation against alien threats, colonize planets, and so forth.  So, you guys trying to tell me that a military does all that?  It sure doesn't seem like it.

If it wasn't for the military we would have never put a man on the moon or had the technology to find the Titanic. You may not see all of the scientific things that the military does is because most of it is classified or it's just not newsworthy. In the Navy there are a few groups of people that are dedicated to underwater exploration. For example when you watch a show on the History channel that is about a underwater wreck who do you think is doing the diving for them? It's a group of Navy divers that's what they are trained to do.

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True, but it seems the Military's perpose is to defend the nation where as Starfleet's purpose is to explore the unkown, help alien cultures develop, defend the Federation against alien threats, colonize planets, and so forth.  So, you guys trying to tell me that a military does all that?  It sure doesn't seem like it.

If it wasn't for the military we would have never put a man on the moon or had the technology to find the Titanic. You may not see all of the scientific things that the military does is because most of it is classified or it's just not newsworthy. In the Navy there are a few groups of people that are dedicated to underwater exploration. For example when you watch a show on the History channel that is about a underwater wreck who do you think is doing the diving for them? It's a group of Navy divers that's what they are trained to do.

Exactly, it was U.S. Navy divers that went down to the USS Monitor and brought up artifacts to be preserved and studied.

 

Another point that is from both DS9 and TNG:

 

O'brien from ST.COM

2346 – Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

 

What does the word Enlisted mean?

 

Lets look at Websters:

 

1 a : to secure the support and aid of : employ in advancing an interest <enlist all the available resources> <enlist the community in an experiment> b : to win over : ATTRACT <trying to enlist my sympathies>

2 : to engage (a person) for duty in the armed forces

intransitive senses

1 : to enroll oneself in the armed forces

2 : to participate heartily (as in a cause, drive, or crusade)

- en·list·ee /-"lis-'tE, -'lis-tE/ noun

- en·list·ment /-'lis(t)-m&nt/ noun

 

All these terms that Starfleet uses seems to point to the Military.

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And even if there were not so many refrences to the military in ST I would still look at it in that fashion.

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The very fact that they have ranks to me denotes military. How many non-military organizations have lieutenants and ensigns. There were different references in TNG to show it was military as well. In The Measure of a Man the hearing was held before a JAG officer. JAGs are found in the military. Ensign Ro had been court-martialed - a military term. Even the term "the brig" is military. I can think of a number of times when Picard or Riker gave an order for the crew to go to battle stations.

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THe Ready Room is a military term as well. There is no escaping the fact that Starfleet is military.

Nope you sure can't deny it.

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Now that T'Pol has resigned her commission with the Vulcan High Command, and is no longer a Sub Commander (just a civilian like Phlox), what position does she hold besides Science Officer?  Is she still First Officer, or does Trip move into the spot having the next highest rank?

 

Now that we've had this discussion and have determined that Starfleet is indeed military, what about my original question?

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In Broken Bow - Adm Forrest made the comment that Archer hadn't selected a science officer yet so I think it was understood (by Trip and everyone else) there would be another senior officer on board. Although that doesn't mean that officer would outrank him. It could have been a lt or ltr cmdr. As someone else pointed out he could not expect to be first officer (or X-O) and chief engineer.

 

I never followed the logic that T'Pol's Vulcan rank superseded Trip's Star Fleet Rank - particularly on a Star Fleet vessel. But TPTB think we should adore the sex-babe T'Pol and push her on us every chance they get - so I am certain she will remain Archer's First Officer. Archer has the option of issuing a "field command" and making her a Star Fleet officer; (unless there's some prohibition against non-humans in the Charter of course)

 

I've rewatched some of the first series episodes and I liked the relationship between Archer and Tucker much better then; they actually talked to each other. Archer spent way too much of the second season fantasizing over T'Pol and ignoring everyone else. I liked how Trip was portrayed in Cease Fire and hated the dumb bumpkin image they gave him in The Seventh.

 

If I were on an away mission and in trouble I would rather have Tucker than T'Pol on the bridge because she'd leave me behind

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Now that T'Pol has resigned her commission with the Vulcan High Command, and is no longer a Sub Commander (just a civilian like Phlox), what position does she hold besides Science Officer?  Is she still First Officer, or does Trip move into the spot having the next highest rank?

 

Now that we've had this discussion and have determined that Starfleet is indeed military, what about my original question?

The military question kind of got things sidetracked, but here's my original response to this question:

 

In the first episode it was my feeling that Trip should have been command after Archer was hurt. T'Pol was just there as an adviser and observer. I thought it was improper for her to take command. That said, I think the Vulcans will allow her to take part in the mission in hindsight and her resignation will be forgotten about. Things will remain status quo.

 

Nothing will change, she will remain with the Vulcan high command and will remain in the same position she has held on Enterprise all along.

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Now that T'Pol has resigned her commission with the Vulcan High Command, and is no longer a Sub Commander (just a civilian like Phlox), what position does she hold besides Science Officer?  Is she still First Officer, or does Trip move into the spot having the next highest rank?

 

Now that we've had this discussion and have determined that Starfleet is indeed military, what about my original question?

The military question kind of got things sidetracked, but here's my original response to this question:

 

In the first episode it was my feeling that Trip should have been command after Archer was hurt. T'Pol was just there as an adviser and observer. I thought it was improper for her to take command. That said, I think the Vulcans will allow her to take part in the mission in hindsight and her resignation will be forgotten about. Things will remain status quo.

 

Nothing will change, she will remain with the Vulcan high command and will remain in the same position she has held on Enterprise all along.

Thanks VBG and Unicorn Hunter!

 

UnicornHunter I agree with you:

If I were on an away mission and in trouble I would rather have Tucker than T'Pol on the bridge because she'd leave me behind

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I was watching "Lower Decks" today and this stuck out to me and I figured I'd make it into an audio clip to go along with out previous discussions on this topic.

 

The question was raised if Starfleet is Military or not.

 

This clip is from Ten Forward, we are seated with the Jr. Officers when Riker walks in (I think I can see RikerChick following him but that's another story for another thread...) You can hear the clip and make your own conclusions but I believe it infers that Starfleet is Military

 

http://www.startrekfans.net/music/civilian.swf

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I'd like to believe that Starfleet is a hybrid of NASA and the U.S. NAVY. Sometimes it's a space program, sometimes it's military. Just depends on the mission, this is how I've allways thought of Starfleet. Besides, I reas that Gene Roddenberry stressed that Starfleet wasn't military, despite the military structure.

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I'd like to believe that Starfleet is a hybrid of NASA and the U.S. NAVY.  Sometimes it's a space program, sometimes it's military.  Just depends on the mission, this is how I've allways thought of Starfleet.  Besides, I reas that Gene Roddenberry stressed that Starfleet wasn't military, despite the military structure.

It's not a matter of having just a "military structure", they are a military. That's why Ben points out that he calls Riker by his first name because he (Ben) is a civilian and that Riker wants to be treated like a civilian while he is in Ten Forward. If Riker was a civilian working in a job for an organization that had a military structure he would be a civilian and there would be no need to treat him like a civilian when he is in the bar.

 

Starfleet is military. They have civilian aspects, but the United States military has civilian aspects working for it too, in training and food services just like Starfleet. Have we ever seen a civilian doing a job on Star Trek other then a service position (Food, Bar etc)? Never that I can recall, unless you want to count Nelix as a Civilian.

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