Data and B4

[prometheus 0]

Data copied all his memories, everything that he was into B4. La Forge said that B4 would be Data, essentially.

 

Data died. He died! That's it. It was a sacrifice. Poignant, a feature of the story. It happens.

 

However, we saw at the end of Nemesis that those Data memories were starting to re-surface in B4. Taking hold as in were.

 

So in the next film, should there be one, if they want to use Brent Spiner and the 'character' of Data, then can just have B4 with all of Data's memories inside. ie a copy of Data. After all, he was a program and could be copied into the corect format.

 

And yes he would be VERY SUBTLEY different as he would have the little bit that was B4 in there as well. But that wouldnt matter.

 

The character will almost be like Dax. Different body (though identical in every respect as Data himself stated) with all the memories and programming of Data inside.

 

Simple. Comprende? I dont want to hear any more nonsense about Data surviving, B4 swapping places with him, blah blah blah.

[Indy 8]

Yeah, I get it. And I agree, for the most part. Just curious how you explain the missing redundant data port on the back of B4's neck during the last scenes of Nemesis? Did Geordi remove it at some point? Or was it a really big faux pas on the part of the make-up people? Or was it done intentionally so some of us would wonder....WHAT IF????

Edited August 28, 2003 by Indy

[Yillara Skye 1]

Your idea your opinion, I have my idea and my opinion. This has been argued countless times before by tons of other people. I have even posted my thoughts on this subject at least two times....so if you want my answer to this....just search on the older threads that are on the 3, 4, 5 and so on pages. Not worth arguing about, as much as I adore Data....but very tired of restating my opinion, so search for it there.

 

 

OK, OK EDIT: Sorry about sounding like I am fuming a bit...just tired of the same old same old discussion...we will always have our own opinions... yes he transfered memories into B4, but B4 will NEVER be Data. Ando no one could EVER get me to change my mind about that...no one, not even my bset friend or my family could ever change my opinion. Sorry, no can do.

 

Dax is still herself, though she has memories and abilities that suface from Curzon, Jadzia, et al. But she is still to some degree still Ezri.

Edited August 28, 2003 by Yillara_Soong

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

I think that Data copied himself into B4 and when the crew realise that then they would take out all the 'Data' bits in B4 and make Data come alive again as a hologram.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Like it or not I think Prom has the right idea of what they plan to do with Data and the B4. Please don't be displeased with me but I am kinda looking forward to seeing (or reading about) the evolution the B4 is going to take towards becoming a Data/B4 hybrid.

[Data 0]

Data is alive.

[Takara_Soong 4]

Yeah, I get it.  And I agree, for the most part.  Just curious how you explain the missing redundant data port on the back of B4's neck during the last scenes of Nemesis?  Did Geordi remove it at some point?  Or was it a really big faux pas on the part of the make-up people?  Or was it done intentionally so some of us would wonder....WHAT IF????

I believe they would have removed the redundant memory port and installed it on Data before he went to the Scimitar. Data did have one when they downloaded the false information from him and he did not have it before. They would have to use the one installed in B4 to make sure the Remans were fooled. It wouldn't have been seen later on Data because his uniform would have covered it.

[Yillara Skye 1]

Data is alive.

**Big grin**... Yeah! :) :P

 

Ok, you knew I'd say that!! LOL

[ensign_beedrill 0]

My opinion:

 

Data's dead. It was an honorable and noble death. But he's dead and nothing's going to change that. Do I want him back? Sure I want him back. Just like I'd want a loved one who died back. But will I get that person back? No. The same with Data. I don't expect him to come back.

 

Data's my favorite character. I cried a little when he died. (Gosh, it was so sad.) And B4's cute and everything. But he's not Data. He could never be Data. What was it Data was saying in "The Measure of a Man?" I don't know if this is the same thing, but he said if Maddox did what he was going to do, he'd still have his memories, but the essence would be lost. I think this is the same sort of thing, I'm not sure. Anyway, B4 might have Data's memories, but he doesn't have his essence... his soul. And yeah, I think Data had a soul.

 

I'd rather B4 become his own person. He has all that Data memory inside of him, but he can't use it. I'd rather he learn about the Enterprise and maybe even become an officer... if that's possible. And then every once in a while he'd say something Data said or he'd say something Data-like. "Intriguing," or maybe that little "hmm" Data always does.

 

But that's where I stand. Data's dead and he's not coming back. I miss him greatly. B4 is not Data and never will be.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

If the B4 can't use the memories then why were they given to him.

[prometheus 0]

I am the sum of my memories and experiences. The way I behave is a result of how I have interacted with others in the past and what I have learned from them. I believe that, if it was possible, this could all be copied and placed into a repica body. The copy will not be 'me' in the strict sense. But it will be me, in the form of a copy, or clone. B4 essentially became a clone.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I am the sum of my memories and experiences. The way I behave is a result of how I have interacted with others in the past and what I have learned from them. I believe that, if it was possible, this could all be copied and placed into a repica body. The copy will not be 'me' in the strict sense. But it will be me, in the form of a copy, or clone. B4 essentially became a clone.

At first I didn't think B4 could be Data but from what you have said and also thinking about the TNG episode Inheritance I'm having second thoughts. Dr. Soong told Data that he transfered Julianna Tainer's memories into the android and the android became Julianna in ever aspect even to the point that she left Dr. Soong.

[RikerChick 5]

Here's what I don't get. Why everyone seems to think we have to go along with everything the writers come up with. If I recall right Star Trek is science fiction. Key word there, fiction. If I don't like the way they do something I don't go along with it. If Data is dead to you, cool, he's dead, if he's alive, he's alive. In my happy little world Data is alive and well and Will is still single. Fiction is fantasy and there are no rules for fantasy. Yay fantasy!

[Yillara Skye 1]

My opinion:

 

Data's dead.  It was an honorable and noble death.  But he's dead and nothing's going to change that.  Do I want him back?  Sure I want him back.  Just like I'd want a loved one who died back.  But will I get that person back?  No.  The same with Data.  I don't expect him to come back.

 

Data's my favorite character.  I cried a little when he died.  (Gosh, it was so sad.)  And B4's cute and everything.  But he's not Data.  He could never be Data.  What was it Data was saying in "The Measure of a Man?"  I don't know if this is the same thing, but he said if Maddox did what he was going to do, he'd still have his memories, but the essence would be lost.  I think this is the same sort of thing, I'm not sure.  Anyway, B4 might have Data's memories, but he doesn't have his essence... his soul.  And yeah, I think Data had a soul.

 

I'd rather B4 become his own person.  He has all that Data memory inside of him, but he can't use it.  I'd rather he learn about the Enterprise and maybe even become an officer... if that's possible.  And then every once in a while he'd say something Data said or he'd say something Data-like.  "Intriguing," or maybe that little "hmm" Data always does.

 

But that's where I stand.  Data's dead and he's not coming back.  I miss him greatly.  B4 is not Data and never will be.

That is so very well put ensign_beedrill! Bravo.. and you know..

I agree with you(shock of all shocks to a great many people, I am very sure). There is not a day that goes by that I don't want to find out that Nemesis's finale was just a horrible nightmare...find out that Data is alive and well. But I have always known that this eventuality could occur...been thinking it was a possibility for nearly 12 years now. That any given moment he could be taken from us...possibly to never return. And apparently this has happened... :P

 

I like what RikerChick said too...

If I recall right Star Trek is science fiction. Key word there, fiction. If I don't like the way they do something I don't go along with it. If Data is dead to you, cool, he's dead, if he's alive, he's alive. In my happy little world Data is alive and well and Will is still single. Fiction is fantasy and there are no rules for fantasy.

Star Trek is fiction..and fiction and fantasy can be anything you want it to be.. To many B4 will become Data, to others he will be alive(after being rescued in infinately possible ways), he could show up in another century(like he did in Time's Arrow, or countless fan fics...my 12 year old one included-yeah one of these days I'll finish, perpetual time travel is a pain in the rear to write about...especially when you have to take into account a non corperal entity with a screw loose-not Q mind you)! Whatever you want it can happen! He could even become human, like in the novel Metamorphosis. Or a holograph like someone suggested(the Moriarty idea). Our mind is simply a playground for us..there are no rules...like RC wrote so well!

 

And from my friend, Data..

Data is alive.

I, of course agree. My choice :) ...end of story.

[ensign_beedrill 0]

If the B4 can't use the memories then why were they given to him.

Oh, I didn't mean he couldn't like he wasn't allowed to. I meant that he couldn't because he wasn't able to. Does that make sense? Data asked him all these questions that he should have known the answers to, but he didn't. For some reason, he wasn't able to access those memories.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Yet.

 

Besides by the end of the film the B4 had started to use them, he sang Blue Sky's.

Edited September 3, 2003 by Alterego

[omni'X 0]

it wasn't just memories copied was it? i figure response algorthyms and stuff like that could've been transferred (was it just memories??)

 

i think data could come back in B4, if B4 grows to data's level. even if you think data had his own soul, i think that soul would come back in b4 (since the soul is in essence a collection of files that were copied)

 

but brent spiner should probably not come back due to wrinkles

[Lessa_Soong 0]

Yes, Juliana's memories were transferred into an android body and she "became" Juliana, but that android had not had a life before that one. that android was built with exactly that intent, to BECOME Juliana Soong.

 

That was not so with B4.

 

but i still think that since Data himself answered this question in the movie, he would be the one to listen to. He said that B4 could never be him, and i believe Data.

 

period!

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Data copied all his memories, everything that he was into B4. La Forge said that B4 would be Data, essentially.

 

Data copied his memory m-grams into B4 so that B4 could have the same opportunities that Data did when Starfleet first activated him. Geordi said, "Data, maybe he's not suppose to be like you." Data responded, "That may be so, but I believe he should have the same opportunities that I did." With this said, it was Data's memories, his knowledge and experriences, that were copied into B4, not Data's actual full blown program.

 

Data died. He died! That's it. It was a sacrifice. Poignant, a feature of the story. It happens.

 

I fully agree. They killed off the character of Data becuase they felt the story was building up to either Picard or Data getting killed off, so after a while, they decided to kill off Data.

 

However, we saw at the end of Nemesis that those Data memories were starting to re-surface in B4. Taking hold as in were.

 

Yes, we saw one of Data's memories surface, but I don't think Data is inside of B4.

 

So in the next film, should there be one, if they want to use Brent Spiner and the 'character' of Data, then can just have B4 with all of Data's memories inside. ie a copy of Data. After all, he was a program and could be copied into the corect format.

 

If I know everything you know, does that make me you? Nope. Just becuase B4 knows everything Data knew, that doesn't mean B4 will become Data. B4 will develop into his own being, however, becuase he is an artificial intelligence, and becuase Data did dump all of his memories into B4, I would like to believe that a little bit of Data lives on through B4.

 

And yes he would be VERY SUBTLEY different as he would have the little bit that was B4 in there as well. But that wouldnt matter.

 

I disagree, I think B4 would develop into his own personallity with a bit of Data shining through once in a while.

 

The character will almost be like Dax. Different body (though identical in every respect as Data himself stated) with all the memories and programming of Data inside.

 

I think Data's memory dump into B4 is nothing like Dax getting a new host. When Jadzia died, Dax, along with all the previous hosts' memories incuding Jadzia, joined with Ezri, we had a new personallity. A blending of Dax and Ezri into Ezri Dax, a single entity. The thing with Data is that Data did not copy himself into B4, only his memories were downloaded into B4, not his personallity. With Dax, you have the symbiont itself surviving, thus half of "Jadzia Dax" lives on in "Ezri Dax". I think these two situations are truelly different.

 

 

 

In conclussion, since B4's programming was so simple, it's quite possible that he may develope into someone very similar to Data, but he's not Data. Most likely those memories will allow him to develope into a sentient being quickly much like Data did after being discovered by Starfleet.

 

One more thing. I read in an interview, somewhere on the web, that Brent Spinder had said that B4 will not become Data as that would cheapen Data's death scene. He also went on to say that he may return to play Data, B4, or perhaps both characters. If this happens, I'm currious to see how Data returns since the actor said it wouldn't be through B4. I'd provide a link, but I have no idea where I read this as it was right after I saw the movie.

 

One more thing to add is that I really hope B4 doesn't become Data as that would mean that B4 would just be consumed and replaced by an existing personallity, so in effect, if B4 became Data, that would mean that B4 died.

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

Data copied his memory m-grams into B4 so that B4 could have the same opportunities that Data did when Starfleet first activated him.  Geordi said, "Data, maybe he's not suppose to be like you."  Data responded, "That may be so, but I believe he should have the same opportunities that I did."  With this said, it was Data's memories, his knowledge and experriences, that were copied into B4, not Data's actual full blown program.

Well, they could say that Georgi made an error when setting up the equipment, this would mean that all of Data's programs and personality was downloaded by mistake. Hence, Data would begin to resurface.

[prometheus 0]

CJLP: I cant help but feel that your dissemination of my comment is almost a personal attack. Once again you have made very firm statements with all the efficacy of fact, yet nothing really backs up what u say, except for your own personal opinions. I find such self indulgance, with respect, a little tiresome. For me to take each of your points and rip them to shreds would take me more time than it's worth, so i'm not going to bother. I'm just going to stick by my original post and that's that. It's obvious. will only make one comment: how do u know for sure that the 'program', as you so dub it, isn't simply just the sum of the memories and m-grams etc. How is it separate and is it not inherent in the type of download that occurred in the film? I mean, surely all that is symbiotic? And maybe my analogy with Dax was too generic for your highly specific tastes. But it was only an analogy and sometimes overly precise comparisons should be left for those too inflexible to let their imagination give them them some lea way.

 

If this post is deleted, i'm out of here. I mean that!

[Lessa_Soong 0]

I have re-opened this topic.

 

I do not see a personal attack in the captain's post, only a debate of a topic.

 

Let's all try to remember that others think and feel differently from ourselves and the proper expression of that opinion will not be restricted.

 

Happy posting all, but keep it civil.

 

any questions or concerns, please PM me.

 

Lessa

[prometheus 0]

It's not what is actually written that is the issue. It is THE WAY in which it is written. The tone, the diction .... sigh. Im not being nasty. Im trying to make a point. It's not often anything irritates me. Im a fairly laid back kind ogf a guy. I just dont like people trying to be smart is all.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

There is no tone or diction.

 

Anywho, how long do you guys think B4 will take to reach the level Data was at at the start of TNG?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

There are variables unknown to us but I will take a guess...

 

Lets see, when the B4 started singing Blue Skys I would say at least 4 (?) months had passed, (based on the time needed to tow the Ent home and effect the level of repair we were shown) since the events of NEM. Now, I always thought the B4 was sandbagging on showing his true understanding of things so after he sang to Picard (let his guard down) progress probably began to increase exponentially (with every passing day he would allow more of Data memories to "peek out") so by now, (10 months later) I think he is chatting up a storm. I give him, oh say, (generously) two or three more years to reach the milestone you set. I want to see him NOW!

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Hmm... Ya know what, thanks to Data's memory dump, I think that 2-3 year time-span sounds about right for B4 to develop into a sentient and intelligent being. Do you think he'll be considerred "Starfleet Property" until he reaches sentience and requests a trial-thing so he can be declared a life form? Perhaps they will allready consider himself a lifeform thanks to Data's trial?

[Lessa_Soong 0]

I would think that if what AE stated came to pass, due to Data's fight for rights and the continued support of Picard, B4 would get to enjoy the rights that his brother established for him.

[prometheus 0]

It would be legal precedent

[APW 0]

Maybe B4 is really Lore,and he is planning another campaign against the crew members of Enterprise!Hehehehehe....

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Admiralpeewee, did you see TNG "Descent, Part II"? That was the episode where Lore was permanently deactivated and when Data took his emotion chip back that Lore had stolen from the dieing Dr. Soong, thinking it would "fix" him. Personally, I thought there was nothing wrong with Lore, that being sentient gave him the "option" of choosing to the life he did. Anywho, when I first saw the android, I knew it had to be one of the prototypes that the android copy of Mrs. Soong told Data about.