[S]"flaws/paradoxs of "Regeneration"

[Jack_Bauer 1]

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The only real flaw here is that it seemed like it took a long time for the Borg on the ship to adapt to the modified Phase Pistols. I know they were better but still. Otherwise, this is a great episode with a lot of great foreshadowing, and notice how the Borg are never refered to by name. I loved the story about Cochrane.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I think the reason why the Borg...

 

Click for Spoiler:

...couldn't adapt so easilly was becuase they were using phase pistols, a primive technology. It's possible that the Borg never assimilated that technology, thus it was difficult to adapt.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I believe this episode created a temporal paradox. However, if you have a basic grasp of time travel, then you should be able to follow me as I explain a possible sollution.

 

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A - 2364, Borg start assimilating colonies in the Federation/Romulan Neutral Zone.

 

B - 2366, Borg invasion of the Federation.

 

C - 2373, 2nd Borg invasion of the Federation. This time, when the cube is destroyed, a sphere is sent back into the past, followed by the Enterprise-E.

 

D - 2063 - Borg Sphere & Enterprise-E appear from the future. Sphere attacks the Phoenix complex, but the Enterrpise-E blows up the sphere. Temporal damage is mostly repaired, and the Enterprise-E returns to 2373.

 

C - 2152 (or '53?), wreckage apprantly reigned down on Earth's artic circle. Some how, drones survived the atmospheric entry and impact. Perhaps they were thrown from the wreckage as it hit? Anyway. At the end of this catastrophe, the Enterprise defeats the Borg transport, but not before a transmission is sent to the Borg in the Delta Quadrant, which is recieved in the mid-24th century.

 

This now lead's us back to A. Had the Borg not gone back in time in ST:FC, the Federation would never encounterred the Borg. At least, not for another century or so.

 

Here's my explanation. Let me know if it doesn't make sense.

 

In the original timeline, for whatever reason, the Borg send a cube to the Alpha Quadrant on a recon mission durring the mid-24th century. This leads to the Hansens being assimilated and first contact in TNG's "Q Who?" Then, after the events of ST:FC, the reason for the Borg recon in the Alpha Quadrant changes from "looking for something to assimilate" to "responding to a 200-year-old message about humanity".

 

So, does that sound like a plausable way to solve this paradox?

[thayln 0]

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The Borg's technology wasn't back up to 24th Century standards, yet. That's why I think it took them so long to adapt to the phase pistols.

 

Plus, our Mr. Reed can get more out of a weapon than any other Star Trek character...ever!

:o

 

Later,

Thayln

[cptwright 1]

I think the reason why the Borg...

 

Click for Spoiler:

...couldn't adapt so easilly was becuase they were using phase pistols, a primive technology.  It's possible that the Borg never assimilated that technology, thus it was difficult to adapt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I believe this episode created a temporal paradox.  However, if you have a basic grasp of time travel, then you should be able to follow me as I explain a possible sollution.

 

Click for Spoiler:

A - 2364, Borg start assimilating colonies in the Federation/Romulan Neutral Zone.

 

B - 2366, Borg invasion of the Federation.

 

C - 2373, 2nd Borg invasion of the Federation.  This time, when the cube is destroyed, a sphere is sent back into the past, followed by the Enterprise-E.

 

D - 2063 - Borg Sphere & Enterprise-E appear from the future.  Sphere attacks the Phoenix complex, but the Enterrpise-E blows up the sphere.  Temporal damage is mostly repaired, and the Enterprise-E returns to 2373.

 

C - 2152 (or '53?), wreckage apprantly reigned down on Earth's artic circle.  Some how, drones survived the atmospheric entry and impact.  Perhaps they were thrown from the wreckage as it hit?  Anyway.  At the end of this catastrophe, the Enterprise defeats the Borg transport, but not before a transmission is sent to the Borg in the Delta Quadrant, which is recieved in the mid-24th century.

 

This now lead's us back to A.  Had the Borg not gone back in time in ST:FC, the Federation would never encounterred the Borg.  At least, not for another century or so.

 

Here's my explanation.  Let me know if it doesn't make sense.

 

In the original timeline, for whatever reason, the Borg send a cube to the Alpha Quadrant on a recon mission durring the mid-24th century.  This leads to the Hansens being assimilated and first contact in TNG's "Q Who?"  Then, after the events of ST:FC, the reason for the Borg recon in the Alpha Quadrant changes from "looking for something to assimilate" to "responding to a 200-year-old message about humanity".

 

So, does that sound like a plausable way to solve this paradox?

 

 

 

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you've gotta remember one thing, they said, that MAYBE the message got out, then again MAYBE not, so that means that theres probably not gonna be any affect on the timeline. not that we'll ever really know what happens.

[MoulinRouge 0]

The episode wasn't as bad as I feared, but they really didn't need to go there with the Borg. I fear reappearances whenver the ratings take a dip.

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Yes, that bit with them not being able to adapt to phase pistols easily seemed pretty darned contrived to me.

If you can adapt to more advanced technology, less advanced tech shouldn't be more difficult for the collective to shield against. It should be the other way around.

 

Sussman and Strong did their best, but they shouldn't have gone there. Period. Nary an awkward glance between Archer and Trip either, though it was pretty much an emergency. Hopefully there will be an awkwardness exhibited between them at some later date.

[ddillard 2]

I agree with the above posts, but one thing has me puzzled.

 

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Why did they beam the borg off of Enterprise? They could have assimilated most of the crew and possibly taken over Enterprise which would have given them a more advanced vessel to utilize.

[Stelfan 0]

I agree with the above posts, but one thing has me puzzled.

 

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Why did they beam the borg off of Enterprise?  They could have assimilated most of the crew and possibly taken over Enterprise which would have given them a more advanced vessel to utilize.

I must agree that this is what puzzled me the most..

 

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With the phase pistols, I don't think it is very strange, it is an old technology they have never encountered before. And Reed is a great armory officer :o And they were able to adapt more quickly on Enterprise probably because Reed didn't have the time to change all the phaser pistols, and only his and Archers had the increased power..

 

And the message sent to the borg doesn't at all have to reach the Delta Quadrant, 200 years traveling through subspace can do a lot to a message.. And even if it does, it might not reach them before Picard goes to see the borg in Q Who? anyway..

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I agree with the above posts, but one thing has me puzzled.

 

Click for Spoiler:

Why did they beam the borg off of Enterprise?  They could have assimilated most of the crew and possibly taken over Enterprise which would have given them a more advanced vessel to utilize.

I must agree that this is what puzzled me the most..

 

Click for Spoiler:

With the phase pistols, I don't think it is very strange, it is an old technology they have never encountered before. And Reed is a great armory officer :o And they were able to adapt more quickly on Enterprise probably because Reed didn't have the time to change all the phaser pistols, and only his and Archers had the increased power..

 

And the message sent to the borg doesn't at all have to reach the Delta Quadrant, 200 years traveling through subspace can do a lot to a message.. And even if it does, it might not reach them before Picard goes to see the borg in Q Who? anyway..

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200 years later puts the Borg running arround the Alpha Quadrant when the Hansens, Seven's family when she was a child, studying the Borg before getting assimilated. I think the message did get to the Borg, but this creates a timeloop. The Borg become interrested in the "area" becuase of a message future Borg sent from the past. Well, you have to have an original timeline in which future Borg hadn't enterred the past yet and that message hadn't been sent, thus, in the original timeline, the Borg would had to have had another reason to come to the Alpha Quadrant, and I'm currious as to what that is.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

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the only problem with the idea that Reed gets more out of the weapon is that the security team which intercepted the Borg aboard Enterprise adapted quickly to the new configuration.

[Takara_Soong 4]

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the only problem with the idea that Reed gets more out of the weapon is that the security team which intercepted the Borg aboard Enterprise adapted quickly to the new configuration.

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But do we know whether all of the security team on Enterprise had modified weapons. They weren't sure how many they could get done in the time they had.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

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Yet, if these were unmodified weapons the Borg should have adapted immediately like the assimilated Tarkaleans

[Takara_Soong 4]

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Yet, if these were unmodified weapons the Borg should have adapted immediately like the assimilated Tarkaleans

I'll try a different theory:

 

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Since the Borg in the episode had been assimilated at different times maybe the more recently assimilated drones weren't able to process the adaption as quickly as the Borg who had been assimilated longer. Do I get points for effort?

[Theunicornhunter 2]

 

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<h4 style="cursor:hand" onClick="expandit(this)">Click for Spoiler:</h4>

<span style="display:none" style=&{head};>Yet, if these were unmodified weapons the Borg should have adapted immediately like the assimilated Tarkaleans</span>

I'll try a different theory:

 

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Since the Borg in the episode had been assimilated at different times maybe the more recently assimilated drones weren't able to process the adaption as quickly as the Borg who had been assimilated longer. Do I get points for effort?

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Did anybody notice the weapons they took out of the case to modify were phase rifles and the weapons they were using against the borg were phase pistols?

[Stelfan 0]

 

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<h4 style="cursor:hand" onClick="expandit(this)">Click for Spoiler:</h4>

<span style="display:none" style=&{head};>Yet, if these were unmodified weapons the Borg should have adapted immediately like the assimilated Tarkaleans</span>

I'll try a different theory:

 

Click for Spoiler:

Since the Borg in the episode had been assimilated at different times maybe the more recently assimilated drones weren't able to process the adaption as quickly as the Borg who had been assimilated longer. Do I get points for effort?

 

 

Click for Spoiler:

Did anybody notice the weapons they took out of the case to modify were phase rifles and the weapons they were using against the borg were phase pistols?

 

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The first weapon they modified was a phase pistol, and just because they took two rifles after that doesn't mean they didn't modify more phase pistols after the rifles..

 

Furthermore, I think the Tarkaleans adapted very quick because the officer used the stun setting, and then Reed used the stun again, which had no effect. And then when he increased the energy output, the Tarkaleans had adapted..

 

I think the security on Enterprise had unmodified phase pistols with maximum setting, thus they managed to kill at the first shot, but then they adapted..

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I'm not gonna hide this entire post in spoilers. So, if you did not see "Regeneration" or the movie "First Contact", click the back button now.

 

 

2350's - The Hansens track a Borg cube and end up assimilated. Their daughter grows up to be Seven of Nine and is liberrated by Voyager.

 

2365 - Q forces first contact between Starfleet and the Borg.

 

2366 - First Borg invasion

 

2373 - 2nd Borg invasion

 

2063 - Borg sphere & Enterprise-E arrive from 2373. Enterprise stops the Borg and saves the future.

 

2152 - Borg wreckage and drones survived the sphere distruction from 100 years ago. NX-01 Enterprise encounters the Borg and defeats them as they only had an assimilated transport ship. Before their transport was destroyed, the Borg send a signal back to the collective.

 

200 years later....

 

2350's - The Hansens track a Borg cube...

 

See the time loop here? In the original timeline, the Borg came for some unkown reason. Then we have the movie ST:FC which causes changes in the timeline. In this new timeline, things are mostly left intact except for one major outcome - this time, the Borg came becuase of a 200-year old message.

 

My question: In the pre-ST:FC timeline, why did the Borg come to the Alpha Quadrant in the 2350's?

[~Crims~ 0]

Because they wanted something new to assimilate and the Federation were fresh meat.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Because they wanted something new to assimilate and the Federation were fresh meat.

So, one could say that...

 

In the original timeline, the Borg were scouting for something to assimilate. Then we have the ST:FC timeline alterration in which "Regeneration" happens. This time arround, they came becuase of a 200-year-old message instead of just "scouting arround". With that said, is it possible that Seven's family were tracking the Borg becuase that cube was snooping arround as a result of the 200-year-old message? Could we say that Seven of Nine is a product of the ST:FC timeline alterration? If the Borg hadn't gone back in time and left a few survivors, would the Hansens had still of known to track that cube? Would the cube they tracked have even of been there?

[thayln 0]

I thought the Hansens were trying to solve the mystery of what destroyed the Federation and Romulan outposts in the Neutral Zone. Wasn't it the Borg who did that?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

I don’t understand the FC timeline alteration. Because the events of the film happened in the past, BEFORE the other series occurred, ALL that we know has happened in the timeline (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY) MUST be based ON the events of FC in the FIRST PLACE, if it don’t, then we have MUTIPLE timelines, something you yourself say is impossible.

 

Anyway, here is my attempt to address your question, sorry if I miss the mark…

 

I think it depends on whether the viewer believes ENT is a prequel or a sequel to ST. If a prequel, all future knowledge is set aside and the chips are allowed to fall where they may without considering facts understood to have already happened. That’s me by the way, Tptb have stated about ENT; “This is how The ST Saga begins”. For me, that means I need not worry myself about these kinds of questions. They are claiming, no matter how deep a hole it seems they are digging themselves into, by the end, the timeline will flow (almost) seamlessly into the other series and watching them all in a row (with ENT at the begining) will make relative sense. I hope so.

 

If a sequel, (This is where the headache begins.) meaning it comes after VOY in the timeline and will always be meant to be viewed POST VOY, I suppose that is a different story for which I choose not to consider because of the headaches it causes but if it turns out it is a paradox, would that be so bad?

 

Hope anything I said helps a little and if not, I hope you find your answer somewhere, good luck.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I don’t understand the FC timeline alteration. Because the events of the film happened in the past, BEFORE the other series occurred, ALL that we know has happened in the timeline (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY) MUST be based ON the events of FC in the FIRST PLACE, if it don’t, then we have MUTIPLE timelines, something you yourself say is impossible.

I agreed with all you said except for the above.

 

You are semi-right when you say the events of ST:FC happen in the past. They did happen in the past, but from another perspective, they happened in the future. Take ST:FC for example. You have one timeline that leads up to 2373. When they traveled into the past to stop the Borg, the timeline was replaced by a subtly different timeline. In this new timeline, we have sligh differences like the episode "Regeneration" which is a result of the timeline being "contaminated". It should not have been a part of our history, but now it is. You can have multiple timelines, they just can't exist at once. Only one at a time.

 

Anyways, all I'm saying is this:

 

In the pre-ST:FC timeline, the Borg "encounter" over Earth in 2063 and the episode "Regeneration" never happened. In the post-ST:FC timeline, that encounter did happen and "Regeneration" happened as well as the motive for the Borg to come to the Alpha Quadrant changed from scouting to investigating a recieved message that was 200 years old.

[cptwright 1]

first, how do you know theyre coming to investigate, rather, than scouting. there has been no new shows of any voy, tng, ds9 to see this happening, your going on an asumption arent you? in regeneration they only said MAYBE THE MESSAGE GOT OUT. meaning maybe it didnt. now say it did, how do you know the cube the hansens found was not there because of a message. theres nothing to say they werent already investigating rather than scouting. anyway i tend to agree with alterego, its a show, for entertainment, watch it for that, and assume that it all works out right, the way it was supposed to.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I'm just seeking the answer to a simple question:

 

Why did the Borg come "scouting" for stuff to assimilate in the 2350's in the pre-ST:FC timeline? Anyong got any ideas? Please don't tell me it's becuase of the message, becuase in the pre-ST:FC timeline, the Borg never went back in time, thus "Regeneration" is a side effect of the events of ST:FC.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

How do we know that this not the way things have always been? The timeline could have always had the Borg travelling back and then later contacting themselves to assimilate earth. This was probably the intent of the attack in ST:FC, to travel back and alert the future Borg of Earth's existence. Why else send one cube? The Borg in Regeneration were probably continuing the interplexing beacon mission. The destruction of the Phoenix is simply a bonus. Thus, the current Star Trek timeline has always had the Borg travelling back to 2063, failing, being frozen, sending the message which causes the Borg to travel to J-25 and the cube the Hansen's encountered (although, I believe the Hansen's were in the DQ at the time). The Borg then attack in 2373 with the soul purpose of ensuring they contact themselves in the past. The events of Regeneration, and Star Trek: First Contact are classified by the Federation specifically Section 31 and the Hansen's work for S31 on a mission to study the Borg. Also consider the Borg assimilated the Hansens and that's how they knew about the message. It all falls into place.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

i think stelfan's got it!

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

How do we know that this not the way things have always been? The timeline could have always had the Borg travelling back and then later contacting themselves to assimilate earth. This was probably the intent of the attack in ST:FC, to travel back and alert the future Borg of Earth's existence. Why else send one cube? The Borg in Regeneration were probably continuing the interplexing beacon mission. The destruction of the Phoenix is simply a bonus. Thus, the current Star Trek timeline has always had the Borg travelling back to 2063, failing, being frozen, sending the message which causes the Borg to travel to J-25 and the cube the Hansen's encountered (although, I believe the Hansen's were in the DQ at the time). The Borg then attack in 2373 with the soul purpose of ensuring they contact  themselves in the past. The events of Regeneration, and Star Trek: First Contact are classified by the Federation specifically Section 31 and the Hansen's work for S31 on a mission to study the Borg.  Also consider the Borg assimilated the Hansens and that's how they knew about the message. It all falls into place.

Actually... you just described a paradox!

[Takara_Soong 4]

i think stelfan's got it!

Now try "the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plane"

 

(From My Fair Lady)

 

 

I think you're right. Stelfan's response makes a lot of sense.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I'm just seeking the answer to a simple question:

 

Why did the Borg come "scouting" for stuff to assimilate in the 2350's in the pre-ST:FC timeline?  Anyong got any ideas?  Please don't tell me it's becuase of the message, becuase in the pre-ST:FC timeline, the Borg never went back in time, thus "Regeneration" is a side effect of the events of ST:FC.

The Borg didn't come to the Alpha Quadrant in the 2350's. The Hansens went to them. At st.com it says that the Hansens heard sketchy rumours about a cube-shape ship and went to the Delta Quadrant to investigate. They disappeared in the Delta Quadrant.

 

The first known trip to the Alpha Quadrant by the Borg was (using your dates) 2363. It was not known at that time but the attacks on the outposts in the TNG episode The Neutral Zone were later attributed to the Borg.

 

It would be logical to assume that the Borg gained their knowledge of Earth when they assimilated the Hansens and/or they got the message sent in 2153.

[timmy84 0]

I think the problem is that the Borg didn't have a reason then. They had no reason to travel over 20,000 light years from there space to find more people to assimulate. I remember reading that Bremen said that this episode would explain why the Borg did come. They got the message and were investigating it.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

The Borg were in the Beta Quadrant in the 2350's. The Hansens were studying them in deep space, when the Cube began to enter a transwarp conduit, so the Hansens took their ship, the Raven, and rode the tail of the transwarp conduit all the way back to the Delta Quadrant where they were discovered by the Borg, thus assimilated.

 

I guess we could say the Borg assimilated the Hansens arround the same time they recieved the message, thus there wouldn't be a timeloop-paradox after all!

 

It looks like I figured it out! WOO-HOO!

[Takara_Soong 4]

The Borg were in the Beta Quadrant in the 2350's.  The Hansens were studying them in deep space, when the Cube began to enter a transwarp conduit, so the Hansens took their ship, the Raven, and rode the tail of the transwarp conduit all the way back to the Delta Quadrant where they were discovered by the Borg, thus assimilated.

The Borg home quadrant is the Delta Quadrant.

 

The Hansens were last seen leaving Deep Space 4 heading for the Delta Quadrant. There is no reason to travel through the Beta Quadrant to get to the Delta Quadrant. The Hansens were assimilated in 2354 in the Delta Quadrant.

 

The message sent by the Borg on Enterprise was sent to the Delta Quadrant in 2153.

 

I hope that clears it up for you.