Who is the most "Moral" Enterprise character

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I was thinking we're always asking questions about who's the hottest or the sexiest. What about questions of character.

 

Now "moral" will mean different things to different people. I am asking you vote for the character that best meets your definition.

 

To me a moral person has a personal standard of right and wrong and lives by those principles even when it is difficult. In other words it isn't as much what you believe is right or wrong (I'm not saying that isn't important - just it would be another thread) as to how you live by what you believe. If you want to discuss what is "moral" feel free to start a new thread.

 

I thought of the question but I don't have an answer yet.

[chunderfish 0]

For me it is between Phlox and Trip. They both have a certain set of standards which they appear very strict about being guided by. They may differ - for example over the issue of marriage - but they both have an internal code of ethics and they stick to it. I think there are numerous examples - we may not always agree with their stances and often neither does Archer - but what makes a character moral is their having a rulebook and playing by it no matter what and I think both Phlox and Trip do this.

 

Archer has allowed his desire for revenge and his sense of mission to outweigh his moral judgement this season by his own admission - perhaps for Trip it is exactly this aspect of his nature that has prevented him from becoming the revenge seeking demon we were led to expect at the end of season 2. He is now out there for the morally sound reason of not wanting this to happen to anyone else rather than just to avenge the death of his sister.

Edited January 31, 2004 by chunderfish

[Theunicornhunter 2]

This of course is just my opinion

 

I voted for Reed, in all fairness they haven't shown us much of Travis and Hoshi facing any moral decisions - Travis a little in examining his choice between family and Star Fleet.

 

Phlox's medical ethics makes him a strong contender but his issues with his son show that he's still working some things out.

 

I think Trip has a strong sense of personal morality but the issue I keep coming back to is his quickness to disobey a direct order (Cogenitor - Dead Stop). By joinging Star Fleet he agreed to play by their rules and by refusing to do so he's not "keeping his word" which I definitely consider a part of morality.

 

Ironic as it may sound I think Archer may be more moral this season than any other because he has a firm idea of what his "purpose" is. He was so all 'over the place' in the two previous seasons that he doesn't get my vote.

 

T'Pol is hard to say - she obviously isn't living according to Vulcan tradition. If she is examining those beliefs and in the process of developing new ones then it would be hard to judge where she is. If she honestly believes in her Vulcan traditions then I would say her behavior isn't consistent with her beliefs - that is called hypocritical

 

So that comes to Reed, I don't think he has ever questioned what duty required of him or what loyalty to principle meant. He made errors such as following Trip in Dead Stop but he didn't flinch from admitting his error. Making a mistake you regret because it conflicts with your morality doesn't make you immoral in my view - it makes you human because we all make mistakes. I just feel Reed is the one character that lives most by a set of principles or personal code.

[barry 0]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

What is moral about being a Vulcan? Seriously, why does being a Vulcan make one more moral than being human?

Edited January 31, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[barry 0]

 

To me a moral person has a personal standard of right and wrong and lives by those principles even when it is difficult.  In other words it isn't as much what you believe is right or wrong, as to how you live by what you believe. 

Thats why I pick T'Pol

[barry 0]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

What is moral about being a Vulcan? Seriously, why does being a Vulcan make one more moral than being human?

It doesn't besides I like T'Pol anyway so lets not argue about it eh :)

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Trip - the episode where Phlox tries to share his wife and Trip refuses is priceless and a perfect example of his moral integrity.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

What is moral about being a Vulcan? Seriously, why does being a Vulcan make one more moral than being human?

It doesn't besides I like T'Pol anyway so lets not argue about it eh :)

I'm not arguing. I was curious why you would think being a Vulcan implicitly makes one more moral than a human - that would have been an interesting topic of discussion.

Edited January 31, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[barry 0]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

What is moral about being a Vulcan? Seriously, why does being a Vulcan make one more moral than being human?

It doesn't besides I like T'Pol anyway so lets not argue about it eh :)

I'm not arguing. I was curious why you would think being a Vulcan implicitly makes one more moral than a human - that would have been an interesting topic of discussion.

I just picked T'Pol because I like her,why don't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Isn't the purpose of this poll/discussion to chose who we feel is the most moral, not who we like the most?

[barry 0]

Isn't the purpose of this poll/discussion to chose who we feel is the most moral, not who we like the most? :)

Whats this pick on me day

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Isn't the purpose of this poll/discussion to chose who we feel is the most moral, not who we like the most? :)

Whats this pick on me day

I'm not picking, just trying to help. :)

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

What is moral about being a Vulcan? Seriously, why does being a Vulcan make one more moral than being human?

It doesn't besides I like T'Pol anyway so lets not argue about it eh :)

I'm not arguing. I was curious why you would think being a Vulcan implicitly makes one more moral than a human - that would have been an interesting topic of discussion.

I just picked T'Pol because I like her,why don't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Disagree on what?

 

Your first post implied Vulcans were implicitly more moral than humans. That kind of statement will tend to make someone curious. I honestly didn't think it would be offensive to ask why you thought so. Apparently you feel that it was - so I'm sorry

Edited January 31, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[Klingonmike 0]

I voted more than one, to me they all have good morals and equally so.

[Ace 0]

For me it's Trip. The examples I thought of were the instance CJLP mentioned when Trip refused Feezle's advances based on the way he was raised, and the entire episode of "Cogenitor". There are more examples of course, but those are the first ones that came to mind. Trip's ethics/morals/ideaologies are so important to him he's even willing to disobey an order from time to time.

Phlox comes in a close second.

[Stardreamer 1]

If ever men will go and explore space I want to be represented by a person like Jon Archer. He is able to go beyond his preconceptions like in

 

"Detained " when he was able to differ between the Cabal and "normal" Sulban people,

 

"The Shipment" when he decided to trust a Xindi,

 

He had also hard moral decisions to make like in:

 

"Extinction" when he didn't destroy the virus, the last remaining of a gone civilization

 

"Dear Doctor" when he had to make the choice if to help he predominate race

 

"Fight or flight" doing what T'Pol recommended leaving the dead crew alone or informing their people so that they could be burried.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

Ace Posted on Jan 31 2004, 04:32 PM

...Trip's ethics/morals/ideaologies are so important to him he's even willing to disobey an order from time to time.

 

Ace - that was a good point about obeying an order to live by a higher moral principle. That would cause a delimma for someone commited to living by principles.

[chunderfish 0]

I agree about Trip - I think his disobeying orders in Cogenitor was precisely bcause of his ethical code - what he saw he judged to be unfair and was prepared to take action. I don't think you can equate adherance to duty as a moral quality - blindly following orders could be deemed actually as avoiding the issue - letting someone else do the thinking and no doubt we can all think of examples where this has been disastrous on an international scale. Reed's only moral act for me so far was his direct questioning of what Archer was doing to the alien in the airlock.

 

Going back to another topic I think that it probably is Trip's adherance to what he perceives as right and wrong that gets him into difficutlies when it comes to making sound command decisions. His balance of what he wanted to do against what he ought to do had tragic results for the Cogenitor and made his well meaning behaviour inexcusable especially for one of his rank.

 

This has been a fascinating thread Unicorn Hunter - it's making me think along some very difficult philosophical avenues. And I agree with you about the Vulcans not necessarily occupying the moral high ground simply because they are Vulcan and if T'Pol is acting contrary to her firmly held beliefs then she is behaving in a less moral way - as you say - hypocritical. I have a funny feeling though that at the end of the day there will turn out to be some kind of space dust getting in her mint tea that is making so unlike a Vulcan - and therefore excuse her behaviour.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named 2]

I'd go with T'Pol after all she is a Vulcan.

What is moral about being a Vulcan? Seriously, why does being a Vulcan make one more moral than being human?

The Vulcan philosophy is one of logic. Even then pure logic is an ideal to be worked toward. Very few achieve Kolinar.

 

But why do we equate logic with ethical behavior or even intelligence? Why do we assume Vulcans must be scientifically minded? Science is not the only occupation that uses logic.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

The Vulcan philosophy is one of logic.  Even then pure logic is an ideal to be worked toward. Very few achieve Kolinar.

 

But why do we equate logic with ethical behavior or even intelligence?  Why do we assume Vulcans must be scientifically minded?  Science is not the only occupation that uses logic.

Machiavelli was very logical - some people don't consider him moral though.

 

Regarding Vulcans, I don't consider logic to equate with being moral - rather I consider it to be an excuse not to have to make moral decisions.

 

Chunderfish maybe I was a little hard on Trip.

Edited February 1, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[Captain Ericks 0]

I voted T'Pol, but i didn't think about Phlox. Oh well. Archer has seemed to be on edge quite a bit, especially against the Xindi. Trip knows what he's doing, and no doubt has good intentions with what ever he does, but I can still see him blowing up at some one. I just can't see T'Pol (or Phlox) getting that out of control.

[hangon 3]

T,POL she is vulcan so i guess her but do vulcans have

morals???? :(

[Theunicornhunter 2]

:( T,POL she is vulcan so i guess her but do vulcans have

morals????

That is a good question. But I am really curious exactly what it is that makes people think Vulcans are inherently moral?

[v_seven 0]

I voted for Travis...he not in the focus lately...but last year in the few he was..

I found him family oriented and mostly that's where moral come from.

[Riaan 0]

If ever men will go  and explore space I want to be represented by a person like Jon Archer. He is able to go beyond his preconceptions like in

 

"Detained " when he was able to differ between the Cabal and "normal" Sulban people,

 

"The Shipment" when he decided to trust a Xindi,

 

He had also hard moral decisions to make like in:

 

"Extinction" when he didn't destroy the virus, the last remaining of a gone civilization

 

"Dear Doctor" when he had to make the choice if to help he predominate race

 

"Fight or flight" doing what T'Pol recommended leaving the dead crew alone or informing their people so that they could be burried.

I agree with StarDreamer. Also Jon Archer stated that he would not loose his humanity by going against what makes him human. (I'm parapharasing because I can't remember the exact quote or the ep)

[mj 7]

I also voted for Travis, because of the episode about him and his family. I particularly liked in the end, when he kept family and space boomer confidences, rather than reveal the details of their private battles, when questioned by Archer. I thought this revealed a code of ethics connected to the space boomers, not just family loyalty. He did not tell Archer about how they handled an attack, nor the implication of that solution for other space boomers. He just said that things were never better, and since his family and the other boomers had a new way of defending themselves and their slow-moving vehicles from attacks by marauders, things were better than ever!

[Theunicornhunter 2]

MJ good to see you posting....I noticed you hadn't been here for a while.

[mj 7]

MJ good to see you posting....I noticed you hadn't been here for a while.

My church always goes through a month long consecration at the start of a new year, and I felt I should not do a whole lot of extra "talking" during that time.

[chunderfish 0]

Wow Unicorn Hunter - this thread has really been making my brain hurt!! The trouble is that posting is a little like thinking out loud - so you probably need five or six goes before you get to a tenable position.

 

So here we go again. Moral behaviour is surely a balance. A code of right and wrong definitely but this will be balanced by the present circumstances and as you say duty and other such concerns. Suppose one had promised to do something and then the situation arises when you feel it would be wrong to keep that promise -arriving at that decision is striking a balance between the importance you place on keeping your promises against the new information you have to hand. I suppose logically speaking T'Pol may just come out on top here since it could be argued that she would be best placed to reach the soundest judgement and would take the time to do so. Whereas someone like Trip has the tendancy to fly off and do whatever strikes him as the right thing in his gut.

 

No wonder different people have such different concepts of moral action.