Gay People On Star Trek

[prometheus 0]

Prometheus,  you don't want anyone to judge gay people but you just judged all us Christians as being lazy. We just hold a different point of view from you. Do you think it's ok for me to say that because you reject the Bible you're stupid? That was a very insulting comment.

No, im sorry. It didnt come out the way i meant. What i meant was, people who just blatently followed the Bible and didn't put much thought into deciding themselves whether or not something is right or wrong in their own mind. I dont like people who say something is wrong just because the Bible says so. There should be a better reason than that. The Bible isnt the be all and end all. And Macs are better than Microsoft (just to go all out!) :blink:

[Lessa_Soong 0]

actually, there is a bible lesson that would apply here...

 

"Hate the sin, love the sinner"

 

even if being gay is considered wrong for you, you should not hate the person. But i do not think anyone had really said they did.

 

and i agree whole heartedly, prometheus. but lets not call it an arguement, lets call it a good old debate! Gets the heart pumping! :blink:

[prometheus 0]

:blink:

[RikerChick 5]

No, im sorry. It didnt come out the way i meant. What i meant was, people who just blatently followed the Bible and didn't put much thought into deciding themselves whether or not something is right or wrong in their own mind. I dont like people who say something is wrong just because the Bible says so. There should be a better reason than that. The Bible isnt the be all and end all. And Macs are better than Microsoft (just to go all out!) :blink:

Okay, I get what you're saying. Sorry. I totally agree with that. You have to test everything out for yourself to see if it's true. The Bible can be interpreted (spl?) so many ways anyway. If God wanted blind faith he wouldn't have given us free will.

[RikerChick 5]

even if being gay is considered wrong for you, you should not hate the person. But i do not think anyone had really said they did.

Oh heck no! I don't think being gay is right, but I have 3 gay friends and a gay MIL. I love them all dearly! They don't all think being Christian is right, but it's ok. I do my thing, they do theirs and it's all cool. We love each other regardless.

[adm. stickler 0]

you took my topic!!! but anyway what do you mean by "the kiss" if your refurring to that one dax episode(they dont show DS9 here) they wernt gay it was that one dax simboint who joind with a female after the male host died but anyway im reading a TNG book and it mentions that there are incest humans so why not show them on startrek.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Prometheus,

 

The Holy Bible is a profoundly complicated book. As a Christian, I can tell you that Christians don't referrence a problem, find an answer, and believe it blindly. It just doesn't work that way. You can, however, referrence an issue if you know the layout of the bible, then find an excerpt that may help you anhylise, interpret, and conclude on how to handle the issue at hand. It's a complex thing, not just look and find the answer. Just trying to clear that up. :blink:

[prometheus 0]

Yeah but that was still two women kissing, despite what was inside them. I think the point was two people can love each other despite physical limitations. There Dax loved the person as opposed to the actual body that person was in.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Yes, I agree, two people can love each other despite "physical differences," but then the question bekons: Is it ethical?

[Klingonmike 0]

Does love have to be ethical?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Yes, I believe love should be ethical.

[Klingonmike 0]

So if a two guys fall in love they should ignore their love and just be unhappy and frustrated all in the name of someones ethics?

[Takara_Soong 4]

Does love have to be ethical?

So true. That's where old sayings like "if it feels so good how can it be wrong" come from. :o

[Guest Ktrek]

One of the things I would like to comment on in this discussion is the assumption by many that being gay is a genetic defect. I'm glad that most of you said you "believe" this is the case which bases your suppositions on faith. In actuality there is no evidence scientifically or medically to support this belief. A little research will show that this is still only a theory. I do believe in God and am a Christian as well. There are many reasons why, including Biblical but not limited to, I feel the gay lifestyle to be morally wrong but I'm not going to discuss them on an open forum that 13 year old fans have access to. However, having a brother who professes to be gay I have learned to be tolerant of the persons even though I abhor the behavior. I have known gays who have been delivered from the lifestyle completely upon repentance and turning in faith to Christ. So if they have this genetic defect why is it that faith can so utterly change their behaviour?

 

Ktrek

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Like I said, humans have the ability to overcome genetic defects.

 

But, the very fact that a gay person can be saved and turn away from the gay lifestyle proves that it isn't genetic.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I don't think it will matter what type of genetic research is done, they could find a chromosome for sexuality tomorrow but it still will not change people's mind or perceptions on this issue. I have read of a study that reported that 10% of the population is strictly heterosexual, 10% is strictly homosexual and the other 80% are, to varying degrees, bi-sexual (not that this 80% have acted on it).

 

For me, I don't believe it is something you can choose. I also believe that anyone who can "convert" from homosexuality to heterosexuality is either deceiving themselves or was bi-sexual.

 

Personally, I am a heterosexual female. With some of the men that I have known, if you could chose your sexuality, they would have be enough reason to "turn" me into a lesbian but it hasn't.

[Xeroc 0]

One of the things I would like to comment on in this discussion is the assumption by many that being gay is a genetic defect. I'm glad that most of you said you "believe" this is the case which bases your suppositions on faith. In actuality there is no evidence scientifically or medically to support this belief. A little research will show that this is still only a theory.

How can you say it is not a defect! Genetic or not it is a sort of defect. They cannot reproduce! That is why life survives! It reproduces! And this is not at all based on faith!

 

I am absolutely not saying they should be discriminated or not tolerated.

[Guest Ktrek]

How can you say it is not a defect!  Genetic or not it is a sort of defect.  They cannot reproduce!  That is why life survives!  It reproduces!  And this is not at all based on faith!

 

I am absolutely not saying they should be discriminated or not tolerated.

I guess I can say this because man is a being that has been created with "free will". To say that they have a defect they are born with and cannot help themselves devolves them of all responsiblity concerning their behavior. Where do we stop? Are pedophiles born with similar defects and not accountable? Thieves? Murders? Adulterers? etc.? The list could go on and on. So if people are not responsible for their behavior then no one should be in prison. Why not? Because they were "born" that way? No! The fact is that they were not "born" that way but "chose" to be that way. The full weight of responsiblity lies with them. To say that they were born that way throws the responsiblity on God. "Why have you made me thus?". When you stand before the Almighty God and answer for your life decisions you will not be able to point the finger at Him but only at yourself. You have chosen and you must bear the results of your own choices and behavior.

 

Ktrek

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Here, here, K'Trek!

[MeeMaw 0]

This topic has been very interesting, but I think Ktrek hit the nail on the head with his last post. I agree with him 100%! I too am a Christian, I hate the action, but love the person behind the action. People will be people and they all have a CHOICE to be who they are. God loves US, not WHAT WE DO. And that brings me to this...sex, be it between hetero or homo, is such a very small part of all of our lives. We have so much more to offer than what's between our legs. I don't mean that to offend or upset anyone with that last comment but it's so true. We, as a people, have more to offer between our two ears than we do our legs. Dwelling on that portion of our anatomy just doesn't seem right to me. I want to know what's going on inside of someones head, not what's going on behind closed doors when I'm not around.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Katy

[prometheus 0]

Sex is a primal urge. We are all born with that urge. Just like our urge to eat and look for warmth. However, just as we all have a different taste for food, we all have a different sexual taste as well as we are not identical. I believe paedophiles are born with different sexual urges. They dont want to do the things they do but sometimes cannot help themselves. Their lust gets the better of them. Society imposes rules on us and our behaviour. What we can and cannot do is dictated by what the majority want. This often takes the form of laws. We cannot allow OTHER PEOPLE TO GET HURT, something our laws prevents. tHEREFORE, WHAT PAEDOPHILES DO IS WRONG IN THE EYES OF SOCIETY, AS HARM IS CAUSED TO OTHERS. gAY AND STRAIGHT RELATIONSHIPS ARE ALLOWED AS NO HARM COMES FROM THESE. i PITY PAEDOPHILES AS THEY HAVE BEEN BORN WITH SEXUAL (sorry, caps overload!) urges which society will not allow them to execute, in the interests of others. I dont feel that murder and theft are directly the result of primal uncontrolable urges, in the same way. I feel that these are more a product of society and circumstance (poverty, fear etc) perhaps flowing from the primal instinct that is survival. Man is naturally a murder anyway, dating back to neolithic man. We will kill each other and steal from each other if it is vital for our mental or physical or even spiritual survival (and by that last one I was referring to circumstances like cults). I dont think anyone would choose to be a murderer or a thief but sometimes they have to in their own mind for their own survival. What I am trying to say is, sometimes our primal urges take over. Our minds say no but our bodies say yes. That is probably why paedophiles do what they do. Society and law will stand to protect us from harm and will not allow such things. With gays, not harm to others results so it is acceptable. Oh dear, i bet some government is going to monitor my e-mail... if i dissappear off this site you'll know why! :)

 

What I basically meant was, we have not evolved as much as we think. Man is still a race of killers and sex mad monkeys. The lovely little society that we have created for ourselves has bound us with moral and ethical standards found acceptable by the majority. We control some of our urges often for the good of the whole and often because they are not socially acceptable. And to execute those urges would get us into trouble. It is more easier for some people to control their urges than others, because they are in a niche in society whereby they do not need to use their primal urges or have been born with urges that society finds acceptable; and they can execute without fear of reprisal. That is why recently you have seen more gay people because decades ago, execution of those urges was unacceptable. If we are pushed though, by impoverishing circumstances or a situation whereby our most primal instinct is threatened (our survival) we could all be murders. Or thieves. And for a lot, where there would be no society or reprisal, the facade of respectability and social conformity would come down and we would be out having sex with whatever we fancied and doing what we felt the urge to do. I thank God we have a society and appreciate the need to uphold a uniform set of values for the good of us all. I believe first and foremost that harm should not be caused to others. If there is no harm to others, then work away. Do what you feel like.

 

And one more thing. You say that being gay goes against the rules of nature. Man and society have created those rules of nature. Maybe we aren't all SUPPOSED to reproduce. Maybe being gay IS a natural thing designed to control population growth. Do you thing it is natural for man to breed and breed and breed until his habitat is overloaded? And then what would happen - threat to survival, murder! We dont know if being gay is natural but it is not UNNATURAL just because reproduction doesnt occur. Nature works in mysterious ways remember. Also, love is a beautiful thing. Ethics are again man made. Love must be ethica? bY who's ethics? Your's? John Smith's? I believe that in the year dot there were no ethics. Our lovely little society loves to create ethics for us. Was it ethical when europeans took over America? Killed Buffalo to the point of extinction? Is it ethical to rob a fly of it's life but not a kitten? Why? We must open our minds and start to challenge. Not just simply accept. And stop thinking that we know everything about nature and what is right and wrong. Otherwise we are making ourselves Gods.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Prometheus,

 

You make an interresting argument. However, I dissagre completely when you say that sexual urges and so forth are something we are born with. I believe that a man's psychology is a product of his environment, not DNA. The reason why we have more and more "gays" is becuase homosexuallity is accepted more and more, thus it's "easier" for people to choose homosexuallity. I know a gay person who didn't go gay till he was rejected by girls and such, he turned to being gay becuase his friends were gay and it was an "acceptable" thing to do.

 

In any event, based on all you've said, I should be able to lie arround, be lazy, never hold a job, and be supported by your tax dollars becuase it's my "nature" to be lazy.

 

Also, next time, try the edit button! :)

[Xeroc 0]

I believe we have all discussed this topic fully, and it doesn't look like anyone is giving up their point, so lets just agree to disagree and call it enough. I will.

 

And as a final statement of my opinion on DNA and whatnot - I think genetics forms a template for our behaviours and the rest is shaped by our environment and our choices.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Interresting, Mr. Xeroc. Personally, I believe DNA has absolutely nothing to do with one's personallity.

[prometheus 0]

Ok, lets call it quits. But i will just say that i dont think someone will "go gay " (hee hee) because their friends are. We have a gay friend and he hasnt 'gone straight'... FIN