what were they thinking?

[roguedawg 0]

I saw this question posted at startrek.com a month ago.It was an interesting question,and actually managed to gather in a few insightful replies before the usual gang of idiots started in with their $!#@%.Thought I'd ask it here and see what responses all of us have.

Now the question was,"Why do the people involved with Star Trek name starships like the Yamato and Akagi after infamous Imperial Japanese naval vessels."The person who posted the question was japanese and was against naming the starships in honor of these warships.The Imperial Japanese government was every bit as brutal and merciless(if not more so) than the Third Reich in Germany.Millions of asians,including japanese were murdered by the Imperial Japanese government.Now,we don't have starships named Goering,Rommel,or Bismarck,and with good reason.So,why Yamato and Akagi?

I understand that in the 24th-century a lot of time has passed,and in time we tend to forget the horrors of past conflicts.But,surely the actions of the Nazi's and Imperial Japanese during WWII were so reprehensible that even after hundreds of years,they would be remembered with disgust.

Is it okay to name Starfleet vessels after ships used by the Imperial Japanese and/or Nazi Germany?Is all forgiven and forgotten?Should it be?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

the usual gang of idiots started in with their $!#@%.

 

:(

 

But,surely the actions of the Nazi's and Imperial Japanese during WWII were so reprehensible that even after hundreds of years,they would be remembered with disgust.

 

I think B) would say: Remembering horrors of the past is not the way to peace in the future.

 

Remember "Onizuka"?

[Takara_Soong 4]

the usual gang of idiots started in with their $!#@%.

 

:(

 

But,surely the actions of the Nazi's and Imperial Japanese during WWII were so reprehensible that even after hundreds of years,they would be remembered with disgust.

 

I think B) would say: Remembering horrors of the past is not the way to peace in the future.

 

Remember "Onizuka"?

But if you don't remember horrors of the past you are doomed to repeat them.

 

It is a very interesting question raised. It would be very interesting to find out who named those ships and why they chose them. I did a quick search of the Akagi and it was the lead ship in the attack on Pearl Harbor. In an interesting note though the Akagi was destroyed by the USS Enterprise.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

I wouldn't be against a couple of Star Trek ships being named after Goering or Rommel. In strictly military terms these two Gerneral were, in many ways brilliant. Especially the Dessert Fox, Rommel. Don't forget, Rommel was implicated in a plot to kill Hitler and was forced to kill himself when it was discovered. Don't get me wrong, I in no way intend on justifying Hitler and the Nazis. But the some of the Generals of the regular German military were some of the "best in the business".

 

That said, Bismarck could have been used simply because of the Bismarcks (the ship) historical place. That's why I think Yamato and Akagi were used.

 

Right or wrong, it's never bothered me.

[breencommander 0]

I'd stop watching Trek if they ever commissioned a starship named Goering or Rommel.Nazis,or not,they helped Hitler further his goals of a final solution and fortress Europe under Nazi domination.As far as I'm concerned,military brilliance aside,that makes them just as bad as Hitler.From what I've read of history(see,roguedawg..I READ),the only reason Rommel was involved with the plot to kill Hitler was because he felt continuing the war would eventually lead to Germany losing the lands it had already conquored(most of Europe,etc).With Hitler dead,then Nazi Germany would continue to rule Europe.Britain and the USA would have possibly been satisfied with the return of France(in part).And the Third Reich would have continued,unopposed as a major world power(possibly the most dominent nation in the world,just look at how innovative their technology was).Some men and things can never be excused,forgiven,or forgotten.These men included.I can't say I know as much about Japan.I know they practiced unrestricted germ warfare against the chinese with devastating results.In fact,after the war was over the USA pardoned the Japanese scientists and doctors who designed Japan's germ warfare program in exchange for all of their human test results(we did this before the Russians could get a cold war lead over us in this area).The japanese "Dr.death",the main guy responsible for the chinese tests was given a large plantation and a life of comfort for the rest of his life in Hawaii.That makes me sick. B)

[VaBeachGuy 12]

As I said above:

 

Don't get me wrong, I in no way intend on justifying Hitler and the Nazis. But the some of the Generals of the regular German military were some of the "best in the business"

 

Looking at things emotionally what they did was unforgivable, but looking at things historically from a Military stand point (and that does not "forget or forgive" them) you have to recognize their military brilliance. Think about what they did militarily, they almost conquered all of Europe in just a few years.

 

Many lessons were learned by US Generals studying Rommel and Goering's tactics. Also from studying their mistakes.

 

Again though, let me stress I do not condone the Nazis in any way shape or form. They got what they deserved and I shed no tears at their deaths.

 

It does seem a bit of a "double standard" though that you would be a fan with these Japanese names on the ships when it could be argued that they were even more guilty of atrocities then were the Germans. Yet if a few German names are used you would refuse to watch.

[roguedawg 0]

It does seem a bit of a "double standard" though that you would be a fan with these Japanese names on the ships when it could be argued that they were even more guilty of atrocities then were the Germans. Yet if a few German names are used you would refuse to watch.

First,to breencommander,I'm impressed,Kid.Second,in response to Va Beach Guy,breencommander only recently got into Trek with the debut of Enterprise and he doesn't really care for the previous series'.As I don't watch Enterprise,perhaps he'd know more about this than me,but I don't believe that series has ever shown a Starfleet vessel named after an Imperial japanese warship.Therefore the kid isn't using double standards.He means what he said.If a USS Goerbles ever gets launched,he'd drop Enterprise in a second.If this makes him more of an Ent fan,than a Star Trek fan,then it does.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

Maybe those were the only Japanese names the writers knew and they're pretending some other great leaders with those names will emerge in the ensuing centuries.

[roguedawg 0]

Maybe those were the only Japanese names the writers knew and they're pretending some other great leaders with those names will emerge in the ensuing centuries.

That makes sense,I guess.I hope that's what was going on.I'd hate to think they named the ships after those vessels on purpose! B)

[ensign_beedrill 0]

I suppose it's for the same reasons we name high schools after Robert E. Lee. All emotions and personal feelings aside, he was a great general. He might have been fighting for slavery and disconnection from the United States, but he was a great military leader. I figure he deserves a few high schools and maybe even a starship named after him.

 

I'm with VaBeachGuy on this one. These people/things are all very historical, and perhaps in the future they look upon history as just... history.

[roguedawg 0]

I suppose it's for the same reasons we name high schools after Robert E. Lee.  All emotions and personal feelings aside, he was a great general.  He might have been fighting for slavery and disconnection from the United States, but he was a great military leader.  I figure he deserves a few high schools and maybe even a starship named after him.

 

I'm with VaBeachGuy on this one.  These people/things are all very historical, and perhaps in the future they look upon history as just... history.

I suppose so.Still,it is unfortunate.Maybe I'm not advanced enough yet,being a 21st century human to be all that forgiving of past injustices.As far as I'm concerned Robert E. Lee was as bad a traitor as Benedict Arnold,if not worse.I think his lofty plateau in American history owes more to our placating a defeated (and still bitter) south than anything spectacular he did on the battlefield.Being a student of the civil war myself,I've come to the conclusion that Lee's victories owed as much to Union incompetence as with his own tactical proficiency.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

I did some research about the names Akagi and Yamato.

 

Yamato: Ancient name of Japan and particularly the province of western Honshu where Japanese civilization began and where the early capitals were located also the clan from which all emperors of Japan are descended, claiming the sun-goddess as ancestor.

 

Akagi: A mountain in Japan

 

So lets more or less assume that they were named for these things and not the warships. I mean there was a U.S.S. Berlin

[fredbroca 0]

I mentiioned this topic to my brother today and he said that their is an anime show in japan now I forgot the name of it but it does have the yamato in that maybe they just like anime.

[trekzone 0]

i like to "look on the bright side" as it were. With the research done by Bauer, im sticking with that.

 

It was for the "good" and not the "bad or the ugly"...

[mj 7]

Really good comments. It's clear that a name or symbol can change in meaning over time. It can evoke strong feelings from some, and near indifference from others. It can have a positive connotation for some groups, and a negative connotation for others. For some these names evoke the memory of a cruel, aggressive, destructive war. For some the names honor a revered ancient country and culture. What needs to develop is some level of sensitivity between the different goups so that the group that cherishes the historical meaning does not trod over the painful rememberances of those for whom the meaning is only of evil, and vice versa.

 

Taking the time to dig deeper, as was done in the comments above, aids communication and understanding. (I don't know whether this would help with the confederate flag issue, though...

awful lot of emotion there.)

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

 

But,surely the actions of the Nazi's and Imperial Japanese during WWII were so reprehensible that even after hundreds of years,they would be remembered with disgust.

 

I think would say: Remembering horrors of the past is not the way to peace in the future.

 

Remember "Onizuka"?

But if you don't remember horrors of the past you are doomed to repeat them.

 

I agree with that; I meant remembering them/it in a negative, hate continuing way.

[Captain Bolivar 0]

Ah Jack... it's interesting to see that we are having a debate about the names of these ships, when those names themselves have been associated with completely different things. If we could miss the second definition, perhaps the writters of Star Trek have made the same mistakes. Maybe they just didn't realize that they were ALSO named other things as well.

[Red Shirt Volunteer 0]

I did some research about the names Akagi and Yamato.

 

Yamato: Ancient name of Japan and particularly the province of western Honshu where Japanese civilization began and where the early capitals were located also the clan from which all emperors of Japan are descended, claiming the sun-goddess as ancestor.

 

Akagi: A mountain in Japan

 

So lets more or less assume that they were named for these things and not the warships. I mean there was a U.S.S. Berlin

 

Glad to see someone who actually checks things up before... well, you know...

 

I speak Japanese at a decent level. Naming a ship USS Yamato would be like naming a ship USS Smith (a common and classic name) or USS America or something. Akagi is also not an uncommon name. Basically, people will just look for anything to make their political point nowadays, whether it has any basis in fact or not. I highly doubt the so-called "Japanese" person who posted the original was raised in Japan and I have to wonder if they even spoke Japanese because it seems rather ridiculous to get all upset over anything like this.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Red Shirt Volunteer