Mike 5 Posted July 29, 2003 Something that has bothered me since I first started watching Star Trek..Why is the ratio of Females to Males on the main cast so bad? If Star Trek is supposed to be this 'Perfect' society shouldn't the ratio be equal or close to equal? At first I thought it was because TOS was made in the 60's but it seems to have continued throughout the 5 ST Series..Any opinions as to why? TOS Uhura, Chapel.......................Kirk,Spock,Sulu,Chekov,Scotty,Bones-------------2/6 TNG Troi,Crusher,Yar/Guinan........Picard,Riker,Data,Geordi,Wesley,Worf------------3/6 Voy Janeway,Torrez,Kes/7..........Chakotay,Kim,Paris,Doctor,Tuvok,Neelix----------3/6 DS9 Dax,Kira................................Sisko,O'Brien,Bashir,Quark,Worf.Odo--------------2/6 Ent T'Pol,Hoshi............................Archer,Trip,Travis,Malcolm,Phlox--------------------2/5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 29, 2003 Yeah I know typical guy point of view but maybe I just want to see more Spacewomen.!.. I think you have it backwards - Star Trek is designed to attract male viewers not female - so heroic male action figures predominate because that is what men relate too. The few women that exist (with a couple of exceptions mainly on DS9 and VOY) are there as window dressing or eye candy - not as a real representation of women. An opinion I believe some ST actresses share. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike 5 Posted July 29, 2003 OK..Perhaps you're right..But I still feel that the the ratio of men to women should have been more equal..It would have sent a better message wouldn't it have? Men and Women working together to solve problems in the future.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 29, 2003 You're ratios are a bit off. TOS - 2/6 Females - Uhura / Chapel Males - Kirk / Spock / Bones / Scotty / Sulu / Chekov TNG - 3/6 Females - Crusher / Troi / Yar Males - Picard / Riker / Data / Worf / LaForge / Wesley DS9 - 3/7 Females - Kira / Jadzia Dax / Ezri Dax Males - Sisko / O'Brien / Worf / Odo / Bashir / Quark / Jake VOY - 4/6 Females - Janeway / B'Elanna / Seven / Kes Males - Chakotay / Tuvok / Tom / Harry / The Doctor / Neelix ENT - 2/5 Females - T'Pol / Sato Males - Archer / Trip / Reed / Maywether / Phlox VOY has been the closest to having an equal male/female ratio. Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but the reason why STAR TREK allways has more males than females in the roles of lead characters, is simply becuase STAR TREK is aimed at a male audience. That in no way means that females can't enjoy the show. I know many females who love Trek. What I am saying, is that Trek is aimed at a male audience. VOY was aimed at a female audience, thus we had more stories centerred arround the females, more relationship stories, and so forth. It's all a matter of what audience you're aiming at. To be honest, none of my favorite shows have had more than 3 females as main characters at one time. Hmm... Maybe we should look into this further? Personally, I don't care about the ration. It could be 5 women and 1 man and I won't care, just as long as it didn't turn into a soap opera with every episode being about relationships. I allready have EVERWOOD for that. :lol: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
removed 0 Posted July 29, 2003 You're ratios are a bit off. TOS - 2/6 Females - Uhura / Chapel Males - Kirk / Spock / Bones / Scotty / Sulu / Chekov TNG - 3/6 Females - Crusher / Troi / Yar Males - Picard / Riker / Data / Worf / LaForge / Wesley DS9 - 3/7 Females - Kira / Jadzia Dax / Ezri Dax Males - Sisko / O'Brien / Worf / Odo / Bashir / Quark / Jake VOY - 4/6 Females - Janeway / B'Elanna / Seven / Kes Males - Chakotay / Tuvok / Tom / Harry / The Doctor / Neelix ENT - 2/5 Females - T'Pol / Sato Males - Archer / Trip / Reed / Maywether / Phlox no i believe spacetigger's ratios are correct. tasha yar and guinan were not around at the same time, so the ration was always the same: Picard / Riker / Data / Worf / LaForge / Wesley / Troi / Crusher / Yar and then Picard / Riker / Data / Worf / LaForge / Wesley / Troi / Crusher / Guinan same scenario with Ezri and Jadzia. there was point in voyager with both 7 and kes, but didnt that only last 1 episode? lol. anyways, i think TheUnicornHunter is right. if it were a predominatly female cast, i dont think id watch it as much. i sounds odd, but its true. id rather see heroic guys fight bad guys with a few women thrown in, then a bunch of girls fight bad girls with a few men thrown in. lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 29, 2003 OK..Perhaps you're right..But I still feel that the the ratio of men to women should have been more equal..It would have sent a better message wouldn't it have? Men and Women working together to solve problems in the future.. I agree - apparently you've missed my diatribes against the sexism prevalent in Star Trek. Even when they do have female characters half of them are sex-toys. Long Live Stargate at least is has quality if not quantity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 Bysty, that makes sense, but I thought we were going by the series as a whole, not season by season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was't Guinnan a recurring character, not a main character? If so, how does she count? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam The Smuggler 1 Posted July 30, 2003 Chapel was also a recurring character Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 Chapel was also a recurring character Was she? I've only seen 1 or 2 episodes with nurse Chapel, and only about 15 or so TOS episodes total, so I haven't seen enough to know. :lol: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam The Smuggler 1 Posted July 30, 2003 I was saying that she's not a Main Main Character, that's all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 Nurse Chapel was a recurring character - not regular cast member. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Takara_Soong 4 Posted July 30, 2003 I think need to make an adjustment for TNG after mid-season 4 when Wes was no longer there otherwise the ratios seem correct to me as well. I can't speak about DS9 and Voyager as I have not seen enough episodes however when it comes to women in power on TNG they certainly had a large number of guest characters who were women in positions of power such as admirals and ambassadors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 If you count recurring roles then where do you draw the line. Say you add Guinan and Nurse Chapel, well how about Barclay and Garak? There was Ensign Wildman (and Naomi) in VOY but there was also Vorek. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 I had to null my vote on Alterego's poll as I have no idea what he was talking about. Personally, I don't have a problem with having more men than women. As long as there's one woman, and the woman/women are treated fiarly and done in an interresting matter, why should it matter, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted July 30, 2003 Please cast your vote in answer to this question Should recurring female roles be considered part of the Men/Women cast ratio...? HERE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 OK, I put some more thought into it, and I get what he's asking. I say no. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 Please cast your vote in answer to this question Should recurring female roles be considered part of the Men/Women cast ratio...? HERE Please explain why recurring female roles but not recurring male roles should be included - if we're trying to get a representative ratio. Captain Jean-Luc Picard Posted on Jul 29 2003, 10:46 PM As long as there's one woman, and the woman/women are treated fiarly and done in an interresting matter, why should it matter, eh? If you don't think it matters why do you even need one? I think it matters because the world doesn't just belong to men - it belongs to women too and they have a right to be represented; I enjoyed DS9 and VOY because they had strong female characters. I also think its important that young girls have exciting role models just like boys do. If I had a teenage daughter I'd much rather her daydream about being a Star Fleet officer than about being Brittany Spears. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 My point is, wether it's 7 men and 1 woman, or 7 women and 1 man, why should it matter as long as that gender is properly represented wether it be 1 character or several? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 My point is, wether it's 7 men and 1 woman, or 7 women and 1 man, why should it matter as long as that gender is properly represented wether it be 1 character or several? Because it's not "proper" representation. Females make up slightly more than half the human population so they should make up half of the crew. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted July 30, 2003 Please cast your vote in answer to this question Should recurring female roles be considered part of the Men/Women cast ratio...? HERE Please explain why recurring female roles but not recurring male roles should be included - if we're trying to get a representative ratio. In the course of this thread it seemed to me to be a revelant question that needed to be asked so I worked with spacetigger to set up the poll. Please feel free to start a thread/poll asking the same question about the men of Trek if you wish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 My point is, wether it's 7 men and 1 woman, or 7 women and 1 man, why should it matter as long as that gender is properly represented wether it be 1 character or several? Because it's not "proper" representation. Females make up slightly more than half the human population so they should make up half of the crew. The planet has what, 8 Billion people on it? Enterprise has about 80 people on it. With that said, I don't think it's a fair comparrison. People should be hired for their job based on quallification, not representation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 I was just pointing the results will be meaningless if you use recurring females and not recurring males in your ratio. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 Agreed! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike 5 Posted July 30, 2003 Females make up slightly more than half the human population so they should make up half of the crew. Which is the reason I started this thread. Females make up half of the population. Wouldn't it have been interesting to have 1 Trek series that had equal numbers of Female to Male Main cast members.. By the way, I don't believe that recurring crew members(Male or Female) should be included as part of the Men/Women main cast ratio..But, please cast your vote. I am interested in what you all have to say.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 The ship doesn't house a community. It houses a crew who are hired based on their skills, not on what they represent. With this, I think it's foolish to say there should be a half-male/half-female crew. While it's possible that may happen, I find it to be highly unlikely, especially when you onlyn have 83 people on the ship. Now, in the TNG-era, I could buy a ship that was half male and half female, as with all the ships out there, it would be probably that would happen on one of the many ships. Anywho, in conclussion, I say it doesn't matter. If the crew members are hired based on their skills, then who cares what their gender is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 The ship doesn't house a community. It houses a crew who are hired based on their skills, not on what they represent. With this, I think it's foolish to say there should be a half-male/half-female crew. While it's possible that may happen, I find it to be highly unlikely, especially when you onlyn have 83 people on the ship. Now, in the TNG-era, I could buy a ship that was half male and half female, as with all the ships out there, it would be probably that would happen on one of the many ships. Anywho, in conclussion, I say it doesn't matter. If the crew members are hired based on their skills, then who cares what their gender is? CJLP, I hate to break the news but The Enterprise isn't a real ship; and the ratio has nothing to do with a qualifications of star fleet personnel because is there is no such thing. The ratio is based on the sexist reality of the 21st century. Not only are women under-represented they are poorly represented. A vulcan sex toy and a whiny face ensign who can't open her mouth without complaining. I find ENT is downright insulting to women Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LadyNarana 0 Posted July 30, 2003 Hate to say it, but as a rule I enjoyed the female characters far less than I did the males. TOS's women were, many times, merely token gestures, but revolutionary for their time. (Take Nichelle Nichols' famous conversaton with Martin Luther King. It was about race, but still can relate to gender.) It's the books that really bring them out, but they're not considered as canon. I'm not into TNG as much as most of you, so maybe I can't say. Ditto VOY and ENT. But DS9's women, I think, were tremendously strong characters. Very intelligent, seldom weak, able and willling to fight alongside the men, and stronger than some of the male characters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 30, 2003 Personally, I like the 2/3 male, 1/3 female ratio for TV shows. It just feels right. Maybe that's becuase I'm a guy, but then again, Indy agrees with me, and she's a mom. Hmm... Anywho, in terms of it being a TV show and 21st century sexism representation, well... To be honest, why is it a big deal? Each series has had strong females for it's time without depicting them in a bad way in my opinion. I see nothing wrong with the "whiny Hoshi". She's whiny and all becuase she didn't want to be there in the first place. Archer had to tempt her with Klingon language in order to get her on board. However, Seven and T'Pol in the catsuits... here, I fully agree with you. However, let's say the women on the show are all treaty in a an excellent manner and or portrayed as strong individuals while still retaining their femenism like Samantha Carter from STARGATE SG-1. Would you still be upset that there's more men than women? I can understand you wanting to see T'Pol done in a lest "sexist" manner, I fully agree, but wanting more women on a Trek show? To me, it really doesn't matter. All this "femenism" is driving me nuts. If it's for respect and equallity, I'm all for it. However, when they go as far as saying, "TV shows should half half the cast be women." then I kind'a get annoyed. I've seen shows that had half the cast or more consist of women, and to be honest, I didn't enjoy them. Too much of a "girly" feel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 30, 2003 I've seen shows that had half the cast or more consist of women, and to be honest, I didn't enjoy them. That's pretty much my point - Star Trek is a show for men. Woman can watch it if they want but TPTB don't care if we don't. Personally, I am more concerned with the negative portrayal than the ratio. I think Hoshi's whining is a big deal. Archer didn't pressure her into going - he pressured here into leaving three weeks early - she agreed she was all his in three weeks. She ENLISTED in an organization called STAR Fleet - If she didn't want to go into space she should have enlisted in an organization called Ground Fleet. Plus in all my years on the single scene all the guys I knew hated whiney, complaining girls. I know you're all happy that you have a show catered to your ideals - a man show. Just for the heck of it try to imagine what it is like being a person who doesn't matter to anyone. It gets very frustrating at times. Just once I'd like to see a TV show where women viewers mattered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ezri Dax 0 Posted July 31, 2003 Well, the real problem I have with that ratio is that I do play a role playing online game where we role play star trek Character, and we have much more female than male... Finding characters for new female member gets problematic.. lol Seriously, I agree that the ratio is off, but it's the fact irl too... I mean, I'm a graduate student in engeneering, and when I look around me.. well.. they are all guys. So, in those domain, they are mostly men, except in sciences and medical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
