Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Greetings, all! Is it just me, or do the fans want Starfleet to be more like soldiers instead of explorrers? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bearded ape 0 Posted July 16, 2003 i would like that. they really need to start the whole armed escort with thier captians, instead of sending them down alone every time. also like the idea of all officers having a side arm at all times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 16, 2003 True, but isn't Star Trek suppose to depict a "better" future for humanity? DS9 seasons 5-7 and the latest movie shows Starfleet as being more soldiers than explorrers. Doesn't this bother anyone else? Personally, I'd much rather be a scientist on some ship charting a nebula than a soldier on some other ship, waiting to kill aliens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riaan 0 Posted July 16, 2003 i would like that. they really need to start the whole armed escort with thier captians, instead of sending them down alone every time. also like the idea of all officers having a side arm at all times. True, but isn't Star Trek suppose to depict a "better" future for humanity? DS9 seasons 5-7 and the latest movie shows Starfleet as being more soldiers than explorrers. Doesn't this bother anyone else? Personally, I'd much rather be a scientist on some ship charting a nebula than a soldier on some other ship, waiting to kill aliens. I would much rather see them as explorers charting star systems and discovering new species. But I agree with bearded ape that they need to start having armed escorts with the Away Teams. Maybe that's one of the functions the commandos will serve. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam The Smuggler 1 Posted July 16, 2003 Well...with the Case of DS9 and Nem. They Were Presented With An Enemy That Wanted To Anihilate Them. It has a way of a changing things. Atleast for a Time. I'm sure things will calm down in the Alpha Quadrent Now...maybe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted July 16, 2003 True, but isn't Star Trek suppose to depict a "better" future for humanity? DS9 seasons 5-7 and the latest movie shows Starfleet as being more soldiers than explorrers. Doesn't this bother anyone else? Personally, I'd much rather be a scientist on some ship charting a nebula than a soldier on some other ship, waiting to kill aliens. So basically you are saying that the military is evil and should be abolished by the time we explore deep space? You really should do a little research on what the real military is like. The real military isn't people walking around with guns wanting to kill people. The military is the last ones to want war because when there is a war they are the first ones to die. As far as wanting to have "scientists" in space exploring I again point out what real life space explorers are like and what their rank is an indication of their professions. Pictured below is USAF Col. Dave Scott, Lt. Col. Alfred Worden and Col. Jim Irwin (Who would later go on to search for Noah's Ark): It is the crew of Apollo 15 that are credited with having the scientific skill to bring back pieces of the original lunar crust. Jim Irwin even quoted bible passages while on the Moon. It was also Col. Scott that performed an experiment on the moon in front of TV cameras to prove Galileo's theroy of falling objects in gravity fields. This is a painting by Apollo 12's Captain Allan Bean "Well, in my left hand I have a feather; in my right hand a hammer. I guess one of the reasons we got here today was because of the gentleman named Galileo. A long time ago, he made a rather significant discovery about falling objects in gravity fields; and we thought - where would be a better place to confirm his findings than on the Moon? And, so, we thought we'd try it here for you. The feather is, appropriately, from an Air Force Academy falcon. I'll drop the hammer and the feather and, hopefully, they'll hit the ground at the same time."Well, Dave let them go and, since there is no atmosphere on the Moon, they fell side by side. They did fall more slowly than on Earth because the gravity is one-sixth that of Earth's. Dave continued, "How about that. This proves that Mr. Galileo was correct in his findings." ~ Painting and quote from http://www.alanbeangallery.com/hammerfeather.html Cpt. Bean as well as Cpt Pete Conrad (USN) who both walked on the moon on Apollo 12 also flew to the Sky Lab space station in the early 1970's doing further scientific research. I could show even more real life military explorers/scientists if you wish but I think you should see by just these few examples that the military is in the forefrunt in many cases of exploration and scientific research. Besides, without the military who's going to come to your rescue when the "bad guys" come after you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 16, 2003 VBG, I never ment to imply that the Military is "evil" as I have high respect for it. It's just that I look at Starfleet as more of a relaxed-militar who's primary goal is more of explorring than defending. With that said, I'd rather see more explorrers than soldiers. Make sense? The reason for the thread was because of all the posts on many Trek boards about fans wanting to see "sleeker, smaller, battle ships" where as I'd rather see larger, creactive, explorration ships. Actually, it'd be even more Starfleet to have a perfect ballance between explorration and battleships. Anywho, sorry my original intention came out wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ddillard 2 Posted July 16, 2003 Myself, I like the episodes where Starfleet is acting in a more defense manner. There is more action and it holds the viewers attention better than an hour of them scanning a nebulae. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted July 16, 2003 Speaking strictly from a standpoint of Star Trek, if all this were reality and we had a starship and could travel at warp speed and we did find hostile aliens out there we would almost surely have a higher mix of military to scientific ships. We would have to in order to survive. From a realistic view of Star Trek as a TV show in the 21st Century with declining ratings they have to have something "exciting". Exploration and Scientific discovery can have it's exciting moments but that fact is that 1. Sex Sells and 2. Military Conflict Sells. Having Enterprise as a scientific vessel would kill the show probably before season 3 ended. But having Enterprise as a Scientific/Military vessel will sustain the show just as it did with all the other series. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chataeya 0 Posted July 16, 2003 IMO, I believe an equal mix is best, because even explorers need some protection at times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 17, 2003 I think too it might be an error to think explorers ever "explored" for the sake of exploration. In Earth history it had a lot to do with trade routes and economics; the scientists were sometimes brought along to provide expertise but "the bottom line" was the incentive. Even today much research is funded by the government - not because it would be interesting to know but for "defense" applications. Some large companies are already actively planning to to make the moon profitable - including an orbiting hotel. I do wish they had a scientist or two on ENT - I think it would give some dimension to the cast. I love Stargate-SG1 where Dr. Jackson is always "do you know what we can learn from this" to O'Neill's "weapons and technology - we need weapons and technology" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bearded ape 0 Posted July 17, 2003 i like oneal a whole lot more than jackson though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earthling 0 Posted July 17, 2003 Star Trek tends to follow the mood of the country. The originial was very reflective of the 60's. Several story lines that discussed racism and strife among alien races or war with humans. Roddenberry in a few interviews stated that he was trying to send the message that we all must work together as one people. He had several subtle messages in his story lines that mirrored things happening in this country. By the time TNG rolled around, the world was a different place and I think the show reflected that. The war in Vietnam was over etc. It was a show about peace and helping other races resolve their problems not thru war but thru diplomatic means. Communism was fading, the Berlin Wall came down; there was hope that peace was finally at hand. Today - We have a war in the Middle East, we had 9/11, the economy has tanked and people want to kick butt and beat the bad guys. I think having a group of soldiers that go after the bad guys that attacked and killed humans very much mirrors the world we live in today. They are 22nd centrury terrorists and the Enterprise and her crew are going to save planet earth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bearded ape 0 Posted July 17, 2003 i have a qesstion, does anybody know if the fedaration has any just plain ground troops? not just people that beam down from their normal jobs on the ships? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 17, 2003 i have a qesstion, does anybody know if the fedaration has any just plain ground troops? not just people that beam down from their normal jobs on the ships? I believe you ment to say Starfleet, not the Federation. Anywho, it's allways been my opinion that they beam down normal officers for whatever duty, and if in a dangerous environment, accompanied by security officers. As for "ground troops"? I think they only show up durring major conflicts, like if 2 species were fighting for 1 planet. That sort of thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ezri Dax 0 Posted July 17, 2003 For me, Starfleet always was the "army" of the federation. In time of peace, using the equipement to explore and make new contact, helping people in needs and all during catastrophes. In time of war, protecting the federation. And those two goals aren't incompatible. Just depends of the time they are needed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted July 17, 2003 For me, Starfleet always was the "army" of the federation. In time of peace, using the equipement to explore and make new contact, helping people in needs and all during catastrophes. In time of war, protecting the federation. And those two goals aren't incompatible. Just depends of the time they are needed In some ways like the real military, though during time of peace the real military not only does research and so on but they do train for future engagements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 17, 2003 Our military is also referred to as the "Armed Forces". What would you call Starfleet? The "Armed Explorrers"? Serriously, what could Starfleet's nick bame be? :o Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted July 17, 2003 i like oneal a whole lot more than jackson though. Interesting - Daniel is one of my favorite characters in all of television history. Although O'Neill is pretty terrific. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Julie 0 Posted March 17, 2006 I like the idea we have in the Sim I am in. As an overarching command, you have Starfleet Command, with the Chief of Staff of Starfleet. Her "Joint Chiefs" Include various Admirals who command specialty subgroups. Starfleet Exploration and Science Command, Starfleet Diplomatic Corps, and Starfleet Strategic and Tactical Operations Command, and Starfleet Medical. Plus, you've also got support commands: Starfleet Spacelift Command, Starfleet Education and Training Command (who runs enlisted Boot Camps, the Academy, and the various job-schools), and Starfleet Research and Development Command. I think Jim even said there is a Starfleet Logistical Support Command, too. Now, under the Strategic and Tactical Command (SSTC), you have the main Battle elements of Starfleet (all of her dedicated Warships), the Starfleet Marine Corps, and the Starfleet Fighter and Bomber Command. they take care of the fighting. Ships assigned to Exploration and Research are essentially the run of the mill starships, like the Galaxy class, and also ships like the Oberth class. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jack_Bauer 1 Posted March 18, 2006 The commencement address President Nanietta Bacco gives to the class of 2380 in Articles of the Federation really sums up this debate, IMO: (I'm omitting the non-dialogue from the speech) » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « "Ex astris, scientia. Those words are on that flag over there. It's from an old human language called Latin. No one has spoken it conversationally for several hundred years, mind you, but we like to trot it out every once in a while to make ourselves sound more interesting. It means 'from that stars, knowledge.' Which makes it kind of a funny motto for a place that has you spending the bulk of your time right here on Earth. The thing about the stars is that they do provide knowledge -- but that comes with a concomitant risk. Nothing underlies that risk more than the fact that you are the first Academy class in quite a while to have gone your entire tenure at the Academy when the Federation wasn't at war. And that, my friends, is something to be celebrated, because the classes before yours either came as first-years when we were at war, or were cadets when war was declared, or joined when they thought war was pretty damn likely. but you all are the first to come through without that particular Damoclean sword hanging over your collective heads. There's an old human saying --not in Latin, you'll be happy to know--that says knowledge is power, and another one that says that power corrupts. Since its founding two hundred and nineteen years ago, the Federation has tried to bring a message of hope and of knowledge to the galaxy. The galaxy, unfortunately, hasn't always been impressed. We may not be at war anymore, but the possibility always, tragically, exists. The people who sat in those seats seven years ago were embroiled in a war six months later when the Dominion took Deep Space Nine. But the purpose of Starfleet isn't to fight the Federation's wars. That is their task --and that might be your task--when it's required, but it's important for all of you to remember that it is a last resort, not a first one. Starfleet was formed when the Federation was, but it grew out of Earth's space exploration arm, and they had a Latin motto too: ad astra per aspera. It means 'to the stars for hope.' And every time we go to the stars, we're filled with hope --no matter how many times it would be better to be filled with dread. Their job then, and your job now, is to seek out new life and new civilizations. Some of those will be like the Klingons or the Romulans or the Cardassians or the Tzenkethi or the Tholians, none of whom were kindly disposed to us at first, and some of whom still aren't. Some of those will be like Bajor or Evora or Cairn of Delta Sigma IV, all of whom have joined the Federation in the last decade. Regardless of who you do meet out there, though, you will bring the peace of hope. It sounds funny, doesn't it? You'll be flying around in ships that have sufficient weaponry ot lay waste to a planet --not really much of a peaceful message is it? When we've had to, we have fought, we have bled, and we have suffered, but it's because with this Federation, we've found something worth fighting for, worth bleeding for, worth suffering for, and yes, worth dying for. And we've also found that the hope we come to the stars for must be tempered with a willingness to defend what we have, because if we don't, there are plenty of people all over the galaxy who'd be more than happy to take it away from us. Everyday I go down to the first floor of the Palais de la Concorde, and there are over a hundred and fifty people in there. Each one is from a wholly different world than the person in the next chair, and both are from different worlds wholly different from the person in chair behind them. Yet they come together, they argue together, they discuss together, and they work together to make this Federation better than it already is. It would be easy to fall into old patterns. Before the Federation formed, Vulcan fought against Andorian, Tellarite fought against Klingon, human fought against Xindi, Romulan fought against pretty much everybody. But now, worlds stand together instead of apart. I've always had tremendous for Starfleet. My chief of staff and my security advisor are former officers. Some of our finest presidents are former Starfleet--Lorne McLaren, Thelian, T'Pragh. Still I never understood their importance until something that happened during the war. When the war was getting particularly bad, Starfleet sent the U.S.S. Enterprise to talk to the Gorn , see f they could be convinced to ally with us against the Dominion. Turns out their timing was pretty spectacularly awful, since Starfleet arrived just in time for a coup d'etat on the Gorn homeworld. The new regime sent ships to Cestus III and actually occupied the planet for a while. In the end, though, we were saved, because the Enterprise was able to stop the violence and convince the Gorn not to count us as their enemy. They didn't do it by force, they didn't do it by blowing Gorn ships out of the sky, though noth things did occur of necessity. But even with a war on, even with the powerful arsenal the Enterprise had its disposal, their captain and crew were able to negotiate a settlement and bring the Gorn into the war. It was a show, not of force, but of ideas that lead to the Gorn signing a treaty with the Federation, which was signed in my office in Pike City. Starfleet is the glue that holds the Federation together. The responsibilty you each have now is to maintain this little miracle that we've kept going here for over tow centuries through tumult and strife, through feast and famine, through war and peace. It will be difficult. All of you will face hard choices in the years ahead, if history's any guide -- and it usually is. But throughout it all, you must remember that it is the from the stars that you find knowledge, it is from the stars that you find hope, and it is from the stars that you will find peace. I'd wish you luck, but I suspect you will not need it. Simply continue to do well. Thank you. Boy, that took a long time to type. I honestly get a little teary when I read it. It comes from Keith R.A. DeCandido's Articles of the Federation, pg. 245-248. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
APW 0 Posted March 18, 2006 Well, in the majority of my most recent fan fiction I have tended to prefer a more military-tone to Starfleet. I didn't really like the almost contemptuous manner in which most Trek writers had characters (like Captain Picard) frown upon Starfleet's dual role as both a scientific and defensive agency. To an extint that loathing of Starfleet's military mission showed itself in some episodes of TNG as well, and maybe the other series too. I always saw the 'Fleet's military role as just as heroic and honorable a service as exploration, to be honest. I for one, wasn't surprised when the Dominion just annihilated the Federation's defenses in the opening weeks of the war on DS9. I see no reason why a well rounded Starfleet crew can't take pride in being explorers and defenders of their homes. There's no shame in being a soldier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Julie 0 Posted March 18, 2006 ...I see no reason why a well rounded Starfleet crew can't take pride in being explorers and defenders of their homes. There's no shame in being a soldier. Exactly, APW. When I was in the Navy, I was a Hospital Corpsmen (Medic), and my job was to fix people up, but I still take great pride in the fact that I did defend my country (The only ship I was assigned to helped overthrow the Taliban.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekz 7 Posted March 18, 2006 (edited) There has to be a mix of military and exploration imo. Longtime fans have heard the opening of TOS and TNG for every episode which both emphasized the exploration aspect, as illustrated on the TNG opening: These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. It's continuing mission to EXPLORE strange NEW WORLDS ... to SEEK OUT new life; new civilizations. To boldly go where no one has gone before! IMO this shifts the emphasis to exploration ahead of military aspects as the number one priority. Obviously Star Fleet needs to have a military component and all ships need to be able to defend themselves. There have been great story arcs concerning conflicts, the Dominion War and the conflict with the Borg being among the best imo. You need to have conflict in stories to keep viewers watching. But for me the wonder of seeing contact with new civilizations and interaction between various races is what keeps me tuning in. Edited March 18, 2006 by trekz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Julie 0 Posted March 18, 2006 I love Gene Roddenberry's concept that Earth is a utopia in the future, where Humans are more concerned with bettering themselves than with gaining wealth and power. However, it is unlikely that EVERY alien species we encounter will share the same values. Hell, it's not easy to get two HUMAN cultures to agree on things. Look at all the constant disagreements between America and France, and America and Canada, and North Korea and South Korea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jack_Bauer 1 Posted March 18, 2006 Has anyone bothered to read the speech yet? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Julie 0 Posted March 19, 2006 I did. I probably would have fallen asleep, but then again, I hate listening to speaches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trekz 7 Posted March 19, 2006 (edited) Yes, I read the speech. (And thanks for typing all that, Jack!) I think it's wonderful, very well written. It does indeed sum up this debate. It does clearly indicate that there are frequent conflicts through the history of Starfleet to that time. I like the theme that Starfleet is the glue that holds the federation togeher. It also talks about the long-time goal to explore. It also emphasizes that diplomacy is important and that armed confrontation is the last resort. I agree that there is always going to be risk going into space and that Starfleet must be ready to protect itself and the Federation from those who might harm or seek to destroy it. For me as a longtime, realtime fan, I again state that the exploratory emphasis is what draws me to Star Trek. I appreciate the emphasis, as this speech indicates, on diplomacy first and conflict as a last resort. I also admire the ability, and acknowledge the necessity, of Starfleet to sucessfully defend the Federation. Edited March 19, 2006 by trekz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites