Berman and Braga never ignored the continuity

[Stephen of Borg 2]

this is from an interview with the two

 

 

For his part, Berman insisted that Trek canon is not always as clear-cut as some viewers might suggest. "There have been a lot of fans that have discussed the fact that Brannon and I have ignored the continuity of Star Trek and ignored canon," he said. "That could not be farther from the truth. We live and breathe this continuity and we're dealing with every element to try to keep a continuity going, but at the same time to create an entertaining series on a weekly basis year after year...we have to bend the rules a little bit." He added that some of Star Trek's own storylines contradict themselves.

[Takara_Soong 4]

All of the series have faced canon issues at one time or another. It's the excessive nitpicking that is killing Trek - the people with a compulsive need to go over ever episode with a fine tooth comb and complain that some railing on the Enterprise's bridge in episode B is different than it was in episode A.

 

Generally speaking, would you notice an alleged canon violation if it wasn't pointed out by someone who was nitpicking?

[Kor37 9]

All of the series have faced canon issues at one time or another. It's the excessive nitpicking that is killing Trek - the people with a compulsive need to go over ever episode with a fine tooth comb and complain that some railing on the Enterprise's bridge in episode B is different than it was in episode A.

 

Generally speaking, would you notice an alleged canon violation if it wasn't pointed out by someone who was nitpicking?

329330[/snapback]

 

Well Said! I agree completely.

[HRH The KING 0]

Berman and Braga are using the "nitpicking" issue as an excuse.

 

It wasn't nitpicking over canon violations that killed ENT, and they know that fully well.

 

The nitpicking DOES get completely out of control for some fans though.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

Berman and Braga are using the "nitpicking" issue as an excuse.

 

It wasn't nitpicking over canon violations that killed ENT, and they know that fully well.

 

The nitpicking DOES get completely out of control for some fans though.

329360[/snapback]

They never really used it as an excuse for the show's cancellation, they're just saying they never severely broke canon on Enterprise.

[HRH The KING 0]

Well, they are implying that a lot of fans criticised the show because of canon violations, which suggests in part that they are blaming that for the show's weak fan following.

 

Actually if one were inclined to look through ENT, you could find canon violations.

 

For all Berman and Braga's excuses, I've yet to hear one that I think they need to admit: "We just didn't write a very good show".

 

I'd believe that far more than the usual nonsense they come out with.

[Wishfire 2]

I can't believe they said they didn't violate canon or continuity. Like the Borg. No humans along the normal time-line were supposed to meet the Borg until Picard did. And if they had been encountered, why wouldn't the description of the Borg be at least familiar to Picard? I mean, if Archer was supposed to become Federation President like In a Mirror, Darkly stated, then Archer's exploits would've been well-known to Starfleet officers.

[Stephen of Borg 2]

I don't think of it as an excuse at all. As Patrick Stewart said recently, they've been doing 600 + episodes, when the well runs dry, you have to find a way to fill it again. I agree with Takara, the only people who notice most of the errors are the ones that are really trying hard to find them

[HRH The KING 0]

I'll tell you ALL where those two guys made their biggest mistake with ENT.

 

Was it the Russell Watson theme? No, because he's a good singer and the song fits the themes of Star Trek.

 

Was it the NX-01? No, because it's a nice design for a Starship.

 

Was it the opening montage and credit sequence? No, because it was a superb opening credit montage sequence.

 

Was it the canon violations? Not really. If the stories are good, I honestly couldn't care less about little nitpicks.

 

Was it UPN? Yes, in a sense. Viacom made a massive mistake by placing ENT on UPN, when it had CBS just sitting there waiting, but that's not the biggest problem.

 

It happened just after they were sitting around in their offices and one of them said "Hey, why don't we set the next Star Trek show BEFORE Kirk's time? It can be a RETRO Trek showing how the Federation was formed!!!".

 

OK, so far so good, it's a good concept.

 

BUT, then they did what they would become known for doing, they blundered.

 

They decided to start writing the show themselves.

 

What they SHOULD have done is called Ira Stephen Behr, Dorothy Fontana, Michael Piller, Ronald Moore, Rene Echevarria, Jeri Taylor and some other people and said "Hey guys, no hard feelings. Would you all like to take the creative direction and write stories for the new Star Trek show which will be called Enterprise?"

 

THAT, is the mistake they made.

 

Then, some rich interesting characters could have been created, strong actors would have been cast, we would have had four seasons of brilliant writing, we'd be all talking about Season Four and how good it was, and we'd be getting ready for Season Five, I wouldn't have been fighting in a frickin fanbase war, and Star Trek would be flying.

 

Alas, what COULD have been. :(

Edited June 8, 2005 by The King

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

I can't believe they said they didn't violate canon or continuity. Like the Borg. No humans along the normal time-line were supposed to meet the Borg until Picard did. And if they had been encountered, why wouldn't the description of the Borg be at least familiar to Picard? I mean, if Archer was supposed to become Federation President like In a Mirror, Darkly stated, then Archer's exploits would've been well-known to Starfleet officers.

329479[/snapback]

 

Read The Borg Timeline On ST.com, It All Seems To Make Sesne To Me. :(

 

 

And King...About UPN, I Agree There. I Didn't Have UPN Between "Broken Bow" And "The Expanse"....And That's Just Cause Direct TV Started Offering It. We Still Can't Even Get It On Basic Cable. So That Alone Can Hurt Ratings.

 

As For The Writers You Mentioned...I Would Have Loved For All Those People To Work On Enterprise.

 

Oh Well...Canon Issues In Star Trek Are Nothing New.

Edited June 8, 2005 by Sam The Smuggler

[xenexian 2]

While it would have been nice to bring back the Trek writers from TNG or DS9, what is overlooked about that is that these people have all gone on to other projects and ideas. Some of the aforementioned writers have been busy on other projects that they wanted and have been hired to do. D.C. Fontana, for example, while a great writer for Star Trek, has other projects that interest her as much, if not more. Ira and Ron Moore have already stated that they've done their time on Star Trek writing and producing and have left a formidable legacy and that it's time to move on to other things. Ira, is now involved on the hit NBC show "Medium", along with Rene Echevarria, and Ron has been busy the past three years with "Battlestar Gallactica". Even if B & B had approached them about doing something for "Enterprise", I doubt that they would have taken them up on the offer. Seriously, how long can someone keep doing and writing about the same things over and over before you yearn to do other projects? Even actors get tired of playing the same role over and over. I think B & B did they best they could with the ideas they had and I have no doubt that Paramount had a lot to say about what direction they wanted them to take the show. As for the canon situation, it really doesn't bother me. Since the starfleet we know didn't exist yet, they pretty much had literary and creative license to create those thread beginnings the best way they could. Some of which began to make more sense as we continued through season four. Even Gene, rest his soul, never gavea a thought to the years preceeding Kirk & Co., so who's to say anything they did was completely incorrect when it came to laying these foundations? I'll miss the program and the canon issue will fade as the years go by.

[Stephen of Borg 2]

I really do love Enterprise. I love watching how the Federation of Planets and the Prime Directive was formed. Now, when I watch the original series, I know how a lot of the things mentioned came into existence.

 

Ever series, not just Trek, has errors in continuity every now and then. I notice it sometimes on the Simpsons.

 

After over 600 episodes, some things have to change so more episodes can be made

[Itchygomba69 0]

I just dont think a Prequel was that great of an idea. I mean it didnt really work for star wars and it didnt work for star trek, Me, Im intrested in seeing how the federation is gonna hold itself together afther the dominion war and so on, then pre-kirk, cause you know everything is gonna be ok, Its a Prequel, you knowthe outcome, for me Trek has and will always beging with Kirk (ok Pike)

[ussacclaim 0]

I liked Enterprise the way it was and didn't feel there was any canon violations. Instead I thought they were creatively bended to allow for the stories that were written.

 

There's more to canon than just an entry in an Encyclopedia of how something happened. I like how the episodes showed us, making them official canon, of how the things that we have all known for years, came about.

 

We knew the destination, and the journey was fun, at least in my opinion.

 

::wonders if he has just been added to 3 million hate lists::

[krysis 2]

There are really two different camps here. One that doesn't mind the canon violation and one that does. I'm seriously not sure which camp I'm in because I really don't know what those violations are... until someone tells me about them. So, how many canon violations are there again??

 

I suppose I'll just sit back and enjoy the show.... now where is my cheeseburger?

[Takara_Soong 4]

So, how many canon violations are there again?? 

 

I suppose I'll just sit back and enjoy the show.... now where is my cheeseburger?

329672[/snapback]

 

There are too many violations to list from every series and movie. Most of it is so minor no one would notice if some nitpicker didn't point it out.

 

Problem is getting people to agree on what is or isn't a breach of canon. Some people claim the Borg and/or Ferengi on Enterprise were canon violations while others, such as myself, say there were not. Everyone interprets things differently so disagreements on this is understandable.

 

The other problem is sifting through false canon (stuff people think is canon but really isn't ie Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet is false canon).

[HRH The KING 0]

You could in theory get away with the Borg/Ferengi thing because technically they didn't know what races they were encountering.

 

They never said "Hey, we're the Ferengi/Borg, nice to meet you".

[Kor37 9]

The same could be said for the Romulans.

[BKY1701 0]

The same could be said for the Romulans.

329710[/snapback]

 

But they knew it was the Romulans; the others they didn’t.

 

The thing I find as a real cannon violation in ENT was the ship itself; never was there any mention of a warp-ship name “enterprise” before the NCC-1701; why was it on NO wall of ships ever; even when the aircraft career enterprise was?

 

That may sound nitpicky, but it’s not. They just grabbed a ship out of their behind and named it “Enterprise NX-01” so they didn’t need to come up with a new idea for a show. VOY and DS9 both had new ideas that they were based on; ENT was the same-old-thing.

 

There are a number of (new) ways they may have made a pre-TOS show that depicted how the federation was formed, but all they did was take the shields off the ship transfer the crew and keep going!

[Odo 0]

Cannon eveyone thinks its law why?

If you have a off topic story its trash?

Star Trek was the first breaking ground.

They have the right to do as they choose.

Do i like it no. But do I like the results Yes.

[Takara_Soong 4]

But they knew it was the Romulans; the others they didn’t.

 

The thing I find as a real cannon violation in ENT was the ship itself; never was there any mention of a  warp-ship name “enterprise” before the NCC-1701; why was it on NO wall of ships ever; even when the aircraft career enterprise was?

 

329727[/snapback]

 

Knowing about the Romulans wasn't breaking canon. The Romulan-Earth war takes place only a few years after the timeline of Enterprise. TOS had Kirk's Enterprise being the first to see Romulans and learn about their link to the Vulcans. That canon wasn't broken.

 

I read somewhere that there are 15 ships named Enterprise that are established in Trek canon (I think that was the number). How many of those 15 have you seen on display in the various series/movies (not including Enterprise)?

[BKY1701 0]

But they knew it was the Romulans; the others they didn’t.

 

The thing I find as a real cannon violation in ENT was the ship itself; never was there any mention of a  warp-ship name “enterprise” before the NCC-1701; why was it on NO wall of ships ever; even when the aircraft career enterprise was?

 

329727[/snapback]

 

Knowing about the Romulans wasn't breaking canon. The Romulan-Earth war takes place only a few years after the timeline of Enterprise. TOS had Kirk's Enterprise being the first to see Romulans and learn about their link to the Vulcans. That canon wasn't broken.

 

I read somewhere that there are 15 ships named Enterprise that are established in Trek canon (I think that was the number). How many of those 15 have you seen on display in the various series/movies (not including Enterprise)?

329833[/snapback]

 

Sure there are ships named enterprise; but there is a clear difference between a small scout ship name enterprise and the first warp 5 ship. It is clear that the NX01 was in the same line as the NCC1701-s; just like the aircraft carrier and the rocket; so why was it never ever even hinted at?

 

My point is not that Enterprise was horribly non-cannon; it’s that there was so much room to expand inside cannon they had no reason to brake it at all.

 

Did they need to name it Enterprise; knowing it should have been shown/talked about before if it was? Not as long as there were other options. They wanted to make a “new” star trek but generally kept the ent-ship-line going; if they really wanted new would it not have been better to make up a new name and get rid of the “wall of ships” in Archer’s office (or replace it with the new, appropriate one).

 

Ok, now I do sound fanatical; just ignore me…

[Takara_Soong 4]

Sure there are ships named enterprise; but there is a clear difference between a small scout ship name enterprise and the first warp 5 ship. It is clear that the NX01 was in the same line as the NCC1701-s; just like the aircraft carrier and the rocket; so why was it never ever even hinted at?

 

My point is not that Enterprise was horribly non-cannon; it’s that there was so much room to expand inside cannon they had no reason to brake it at all.

 

Did they need to name it Enterprise; knowing it should have been shown/talked about before if it was? Not as long as there were other options. They wanted to make a “new” star trek but generally kept the ent-ship-line going; if they really wanted new would it not have been better to make up a new name and get rid of the “wall of ships” in Archer’s office (or replace it with the new, appropriate one).

 

Ok, now I do sound fanatical; just ignore me…

329917[/snapback]

 

Did they have to name the NX-01 Enterprise. IMO, yes. Can you image the outcry from Trek fans if the first warp 5 ship had not be called Enterprise?

 

I made this point in another thread, just because something isn't mentioned in a series set later does not mean there is a canon violation. If there were no mentions of the first warp 5 ship in the other series then there is nothing that has been violated. You can't breach canon that doesn't exist.

[Itchygomba69 0]

i feel they should of named the Ship something other then Enterprise, I personally dont think the outcry of the 1st warp 5 ship not being names Enterprise would be bad because alas cannon

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

Now Lets Get On With Our Lives.

[BKY1701 0]

Did they have to name the NX-01 Enterprise. IMO, yes. Can you image the outcry from Trek fans if the first warp 5 ship had not be called Enterprise?

 

Was the first warp ship named Enterprise? Was the first trans-warp (test) ship named Enterprise? In fact, did they name any revolutionary ships other then the 1701s Enterprise? No, and I have never seen one person say they should have. Warp 5 is not a big deal anyway.

 

I made this point in another thread, just because something isn't mentioned in a series set later does not mean there is a canon violation. If there were no mentions of the first warp 5 ship in the other series then there is nothing that has been violated. You can't breach canon that doesn't exist.

 

In a way, however, there was cannon there; the fact that the Wall of Ships never had the NX-01 is more then a lack of canon; it IS canon. They fairly established the past Enterprises, making the lack of the NX-01 a canon fact.

 

And what about the hole in Florida? They never said anything about that, and showed pictures of earth; I never seen a hole in it. Did they fill it up in 200 years?

 

Lets face it; they upped into Enterprise just to try to make a new TOS; in the process messing everything up.

[Takara_Soong 4]

In a way, however, there was cannon there; the fact that the Wall of Ships never had the NX-01 is more then a lack of canon; it IS canon. They fairly established the past Enterprises, making the lack of the NX-01 a canon fact.

 

And what about the hole in Florida? They never said anything about that, and showed pictures of earth; I never seen a hole in it. Did they fill it up in 200 years?

 

Lets face it; they upped into Enterprise just to try to make a new TOS; in the process messing everything up.

330158[/snapback]

 

I'm not certain what series you are referring to when you talk about "Wall of Ships". As far as TNG is concerned, they only had Federation ships on display so there was no canon breach by not having an Earth ship displayed. I'm not familiar with a "Wall of Ships" on TOS because I've not seen all the episodes. What series had the aircraft carrier displayed?

 

As for Florida, what episode/movie of Trek showed a clear image of Florida post-22nd century? I haven't seen every Trek episode so I'm not familiar with any images.

[Itchygomba69 0]

you could see it in a few, even in movies

[Takara_Soong 4]

you could see it in a few, even in movies

330182[/snapback]

 

You see what? where? Ship, Florida - I'm not sure what you're responding to. And please be more specific if possible.

[HRH The KING 0]

Florida was seen in "Star Trek First Contact" although it had been "Borgified".

 

That was an alternate timeline though.

 

Did they fill it up in 200 years?

 

Probably. It took us only a fraction of that time to create the Channel Tunnel and we didn't have post 22nd technology.

 

Most of the trench would have been filled with water since it cut across the sea.

Edited June 12, 2005 by The King