Advice on strange car symptom...

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

 

Our car (89 Honda Civic 4 cylinder fuel injected 5 speed) has been doing something odd lately; every once in a while for no good reason I am able to discern it won't start. Usually when it happens just waiting a few moments then trying the starter again would result in a starting but yesterday it really threw a hissy-fit; no amount of waiting time would correct whatever is wrong thus ruining our plans for the day.

 

It cranked fine in fact yesterday I cranked it for at least an hour all total but it just would not start, I could smell gas & I took the air cleaner cover off so clogged air/gas filter is eliminated as reason.

 

This morning it started within two seconds of turning the key.

 

Anyone having experience with this odd symptom (or theories as to what the cause might be) can you please share with me?

[Angela 1]

I don't know a heck of a lot about cars but you could have an intermittent failure with your starter.

[Madame Butterfly 0]

My neighbors son had a Honda Accord of the same year, with the same difficulty.

 

It was always "thought" to be a starter problem, but as the difficulty they came to believe it had more to do with the model's design than anything.

 

They poured alot of money into that car but never found a solution.

 

Which I could be of more help.

[Odo 0]

Did just start latley.

As the weather started getting warmer.

soumds like a form of vapor lock.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

 

Thanks for trying UA but no, it cranks great in fact I am amazed at the power of the battery and the starter as witnessed yesterday; all told I cranked it for an hour without the strength of the batteries cranking ability diminishing in the least.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

My neighbors son had a Honda Accord of the same year, with the same difficulty.

 

It was always "thought" to be a starter problem, but as the difficulty they came to believe it had more to do with the model's design than anything.

 

They poured alot of money into that car but never found a solution.

 

Which I could be of more help.

323336[/snapback]

 

The old; "looks like they should have run this design across a few more drawing boards" routine huh? Still good advice MB, I'll be sure not to pour a lot of money into it.

 

 

Did just start latley.

As the weather started getting warmer.

soumds like a form of vapor lock.

323338[/snapback]

 

Thanks Odo. Actually I did consider the possibility the heat may have something to do with it, that I can remember it does seem to occur more often in hot weather and it was hot yesterday when it would not start and cool this morning when it did but I cannot say it happens that way as a rule. I need to start paying more attention in that area.

 

I also have thought of the term 'vapor lock' but I don't really understand how it would apply to the problem, I mean; where would the lock occur?

[Odo 0]

It occurs in the igniation chamber when it can not ignite the gas fast enough

a kind of vapor developes stopping it from igniting

and wont until the vapor evaperates.

can take minutes or a hour or so.

Had a dodge pickup that did it

[Matt 0]

Give me a couple of days, I'll see what I can find out.

[Data 0]

It occurs in the igniation chamber when it can not ignite the gas fast enough

a kind of vapor developes stopping it from igniting

and wont until the vapor evaperates.

can take minutes or a hour or so.

Had a dodge pickup that did it

323347[/snapback]

 

 

Yeah, electronic ignitions seem to hate the heat. AE may have a bad module.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Data

[Yillara Skye 1]

My '93 Escort did something similar recently.. right as the temperatures are getting warmer here. Some days I could start it up with no problem, some days it took forever to get it turned over. Though I do have to say it only took a couple minutes maximum in my case. Also, my brother's Dodge Spirit did a similar thing too... but he had his starter changed out and it seemed to rectify the problem.

 

Sadly, my best friend moved back home a few months ago. He owned a Honda Civic (though I do not know what year), if he was still here I could see if he ever had a similar problem with his car.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

It occurs in the igniation chamber when it can not ignite the gas fast enough

a kind of vapor developes stopping it from igniting

and wont until the vapor evaperates.

can take minutes or a hour or so.

Had a dodge pickup that did it

323347[/snapback]

 

Makes allot of sense Odo! A kind of vapor 'flooding'...

 

But I don't see why the continued cranking wouldn't push the vapors out the exhaust...

 

Unless new vapors are being drawn in from the carb or... what about the automatic choke, sticking perhaps & cutting off too much air?

 

Give me a couple of days, I'll see what I can find out.

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Thanks Matt! I appreciate all the input I can get about this.

 

Madame Butterfly if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear every option your friend eliminated as a potential cause; that could save me much time and money if/when wrangling with the mechanic starts...

[A l t e r E g o 9]

It occurs in the igniation chamber when it can not ignite the gas fast enough

a kind of vapor developes stopping it from igniting

and wont until the vapor evaperates.

can take minutes or a hour or so.

Had a dodge pickup that did it

323347[/snapback]

 

 

Yeah, electronic ignitions seem to hate the heat. AE may have a bad module.

323363[/snapback]

 

Thank you Data! *writes it down* This is my first car with EI I ever owned, the learning curve is starting to flatten.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

My '93 Escort did something similar recently.. right as the temperatures are getting warmer here. Some days I could start it up with no problem, some days it took forever to get it turned over. Though I do have to say it only took a couple minutes maximum in my case. Also, my brother's Dodge Spirit did a similar thing too... but he had his starter changed out and it seemed to rectify the problem.

 

Sadly, my best friend moved back home a few months ago. He owned a Honda Civic (though I do not know what year), if he was still here I could see if he ever had a similar problem with his car.

323364[/snapback]

 

Thanks for the input Yillara.

[deadmeatsecurityguy 0]

A good insurance fire is always an option Kidding!

[A l t e r E g o 9]

A good insurance fire is always an option  Kidding!

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We only have insurance required by law. Insuring the car against damage to IT would cost more than it's worth. However the topic of this thread is the only thing bad about it other-wise it is perfect transportation for our needs.

[Madame Butterfly 0]

Well they don't appear to be home at the moment, but when I see them next I'll make sure to get the information for you AE.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

There is apparently a relay switch that regulates gas flow that can occasionally go bad on Civics. They said the part here cost about $60 - I'm sure it's more in CA.

 

Is it a standard - when mine wouldn't start it was the little clutch switch - cost all of $10 to fix but had to have it towed. Look at your floorboard and see if you see a little piece of plastic (round) - that's what the shop owner told me and sure enough there it was.

 

Also, do you park on a slope - I think it has something to do with the relay switch but if the gas is low and I park uphill - I have a harder time starting.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

There is apparently a relay switch that regulates gas flow that can occasionally go bad on Civics.  They said the part here cost about $60 - I'm sure it's more in CA.

 

Is it a standard - when mine wouldn't start it was the little clutch switch - cost all of $10 to fix but had to have it towed.  Look at your floorboard and see if you see a little piece of plastic (round) - that's what the shop owner told me and sure enough there it was.

 

Also, do you park on a slope - I think it has something to do with the relay switch but if the gas is low and I park uphill - I have a harder time starting.

323379[/snapback]

 

VERY interesting UH, it is now time to go pick up Martha at work (car willing) so I'll check your suggestions out and get back to you...

[Odo 0]

The vapor coates the ignition points in the chamber

and will not work untill they dry. so yes it is somewhat like flooding

a car.but not the same. As it occurs below the carb not in it.

The spark will not work as long as the vapor is there.

[Odo 0]

Another thought.

you could have an injector sticking.

as it is an older car with fuel injection.

may want to run a can of injector cleaner through it

could be as simple as that as they do get a build up after time.

[Madame Butterfly 0]

My neighbor and I had a bit of a chat.

 

Apparently with this car, they initially thought it was a problem with the ignition. But they also checked many OTHER "possible" things.

 

In the end, it was the ignition needing to be replaced.

[deadmeatsecurityguy 0]

If you have a mechanic you trust and dealwith frequently have him do a diagnostic check on the starter Ignition whatever and give you an estimate to fix it see if it's worth it. Seems to me the car is at the age it's going to nickel and dime you forever. Replacement an option here or what.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

Is it a standard - when mine wouldn't start it was the little clutch switch - cost all of $10 to fix but had to have it towed.  Look at your floorboard and see if you see a little piece of plastic (round) - that's what the shop owner told me and sure enough there it was.

 

Yes a standard. I looked on the floorboard but did find it then I noticed the carpet was loose and peeled it back to reveal a little round blue piece of plastic laying loose; I will put it on the list of possibilitys. Would yours still crank properly with this piece broken?

 

There is apparently a relay switch that regulates gas flow that can occasionally go bad on Civics.  They said the part here cost about $60 - I'm sure it's more in CA.

 

I assume that switch is something I am not familiar with under the hood but I will add it to the list.

 

Also, do you park on a slope - I think it has something to do with the relay switch but if the gas is low and I park uphill - I have a harder time starting.

 

I should have mentioned earlier the slope option has been eliminated; just this past Saturday while Jem and I were shopping for her Mom it happened in a flat parking lot. It has also occurred when the tank was full.

 

Thanks for the good ideas UH!

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Well they don't appear to be home at the moment, but when I see them next I'll make sure to get the information for you AE.

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Thank you MB!

 

I guess I should mention the trip to get M was uneventful, we had a stop on the way home to make but to be sure we got home I stayed with car idling.

[Data 0]

I still think it could be the electronic ignition module. Because when they start to act up, it is usually hot. Eventually it will just die. But when it starts to go, you will have intermittent problems.

[Madame Butterfly 0]

Yes, my neighbor said they had to replace the whole "chamber" in which the key is inserted to start the car.

 

It was nothing under the hood, it was this that needed replacing, it had gone bad.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

The vapor coates the ignition points in the chamber

and will not work untill they dry. so yes it is somewhat like flooding

a car.but not the same. As it occurs below the carb not in it.

The spark will not work as long as the vapor is there.

323383[/snapback]

 

Well snap my suspenders; I always thought flooding occurred in the cylinders, learn something new everyday. Coating the points makes sense though.

 

Another thought.

you could have an injector sticking.

as it is an older car with fuel injection.

may want to run a can of injector cleaner through it

could be as simple as that as they do get a build up after time.

323386[/snapback]

 

I have an inherent fear of additives, always afraid they will muck up an engine more than they help but I will try it; the nearby 99cent store sells STP brand FI cleaner. (this is my first car with fuel injection as well) More great advice Odo thank you.

 

 

My neighbor and I had a bit of a chat.

 

Apparently with this car, they initially thought it was a problem with the ignition.  But they also checked many OTHER "possible" things.

 

In the end, it was the ignition needing to be replaced.

323392[/snapback]

 

Did they give a dollar amount needed for that action?

 

If you have a mechanic you trust and dealwith frequently have him do a diagnostic check on the starter Ignition whatever and give you an estimate to fix it see if it's worth it.  Seems to me the car is at the age it's going to nickel and dime you forever.  Replacement an option here or what.

323394[/snapback]

 

The mechanic says a diagnostic will only be helpful if performed while the problem (car not starting) is being experienced. He claims if he runs the check while the engine is not experiencing the problem (while running) it will not show what the problem is; I need to take it to the shop at a time when it will not start. (he means tow it to them when it is acting up) Is he being truthful about that in your opinion?

 

Well we bought it for $500 and figured it would need a few things done down the road and it did: tranny, starter and water pump so far but it came with a new clutch, alternator, brakejob and two new tires on the drive axle. We feel we got a bargain on the Silver Ghost even with the Xtra cash we have plopped down to keep it running but yeah, a point could be reached where it is better to replace.

[Data 0]

MB, the module is just a "black box". It is actually farely easy to replace.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Data

[A l t e r E g o 9]

I still think it could be the electronic ignition module. Because when they start to act up, it is usually hot. Eventually it will just die. But when it starts to go, you will have intermittent problems.

323401[/snapback]

 

Immensely Logical Data, certainly on my list to check out after the less expensive options are exhausted :wink2:

[Madame Butterfly 0]

MB, the module is just a "black box". It is actually farely easy to replace.

323416[/snapback]

 

 

:wink2: Just reporting back how it was explained to me Data, but they were amazed that I had remembered this about their car when they had forgotten!