Romulan Honor

[Valeris 2]

And we are right to be prideful! Klingons do have no honor. See one particular post of Welfconfed, where he describes the different mindsets of Romulans and Klingons... I cannot remember which post that is, but it is true.

[welfconfed 2]

Well, alot of authors contradict each other. This especially happens during the Romulan-Federation war. Some say the Federation fired first, some say the Romulans fired 1st. Hard to say. That is why I get all my information from a book made by a producer, directer, writer, or creater of star trek (I'll let you get them from those sources), or by episodes, movies, and startrek.com

I agree, I will site only the television episodes, films and official publications.

 

As to who has the greatest number of clear violations of treaty, well.....

 

2156-60 Earth/Romulan war (since we don't know anything about the causes, we can't really place blame) (conjecture, the Star Trek Chronology)

 

2266 (SD 1709.2) Romulans violate neutral zone and get involved in a conflict with federation outposts, the Enterprise violates the NZ to destroy the Romulan vessel. "Balance of Terror"(TOS), (This one is on the Romulans.)

 

2267 (SD 3478.2) The Enterprise violates the NZ as a short cut to where they are going. "The Deadly Years"(TOS), (This one is the Federations fault.)

 

2268 (SD 5027.3) The Enterprise violates the NZ, steals a cloaking device, and kidnaps a Romulan Commander. "The Enterprise Incident"(TOS), (This should qualify as at least three violations, but I'll count it as a single event, and say one more on the UFP.)

 

2311 The Tomed Incident, like the Earth/Romulan war, has never been explained outside of 'non-canon' sources.

 

2364 (SD 41986.0) Both the Enterprise and a Romulan War Bird investigate the disappearance of outposts on both sides of the NZ, later blamed on the Borg. "The Neutral Zone"(TNG),(This one, I believe, to be a justified violation by both sides. So a free one to both.)

 

2365 (SD 42609.1) The U.S.S. Yamato violates the NZ to steal alien technology on a planet, but it fails. Later the Enterprise-D violates the NZ and destroys an alien 'transporter site' on the planet. A Romulan ship enters the zone to investigate the Federation invasion of the area. "Contagion"(TNG),(Again, this could be considered two violations, but I'll count it as only one Federation violation)

 

2366 (SD 43349.2) A two man, Romulan scout craft crashes on a Federation world. The Enterprise takes one of the Romulans into custody, but later lets him die when they had the means to save him. A Romulan ship enters Federation space to retrieve the two men, but is able to save only the one survivor. "The Enemy"(TNG), (The first violation was an accident, but the Enterprise made the choice to let the Romulan die. The War Bird entered UFP space only when lives were on the line. One more Federation violation.)

 

2366 (SD 43462.5) Given false intelligence about a military build up, to test his loyalty, a Romulan Admiral goes over to the Federation, and instead of going through diplomatic channels, the Federation sends the Enterprise and a group of klingon vessels to invade the Zone. "The Defector"(TNG), (Another on the Federation.)

 

2366 (SD 43779.3) Both the Federation and the Romulans try to make contact with the space-going being 'tin man' but when a Federation citizen takes control of it, tin man attacks the Romulan vessels. "Tin Man"(TNG), (no clear violation.)

 

2367 (SD 44390.1) A Romulan agent, posing as a Vulcan, escapes back to the Federation. "Data's Day"(TNG), (This one is on the Romulans.)

 

2367 (SD 44769.2) A Klingon agent claims to be working with the Romulans. "The Drumhead"(TNG), (We have no evidence other than the word of the klingon. No proven violation.)

 

2367 (SD 44885.5) The Romulans capture and brain wash Laforge. "The Minds Eye"(TNG), (Another one on the Romulans.)

 

2367 (SD 44995.3, SD 45020.4) Both the Federation and the Romulans get envolved in the Klingon civil war. "Redemption parts 1 and 2"(TNG),(No violation, except of klingon internal affairs.)

 

2368 (SD 45233.1) Federation ambassador Spock secretly arrives on Romulus and later star fleet officers also arrive to conspire with a secret group,the Romulans plan to reunite the Romulan and Vulcan races through force. "Unification parts 1 and 2"(TNG),(Violations by both.)

 

2369 (SD 46519.1) Star Fleet officers help Romulan traitors to sneak defectors into the Federation. "The Face of the Enemy"(TNG), (One more on the Federation.)

 

2370 (SD 47457.1) The Federation attempts to develop a phasing cloak. "Pegasus"(TNG), (A clear violation by the Federation.)

 

2371 (No Star Date given) The Romulans plan to close the Worm hole and destroy DS 9, an attempt to remove the Dominion threat. "Visionary"(DSN), (A violation by the Romulans.)

 

2374 (SD 51721.3) The Federation murders a Romulan senator and frames the Dominion to get the Romulans to enter the war on the Federations side. "By the Pale Moon Light"(DSN), (A horrible violation by the Federation.)

 

2374 (No Star Date given) Romulans attempt to capture U.S.S. Prometheus, but are stopped by the ships EMH and the EMH from U.S.S. Voyager. "Message in a Bottle"(VOY), (A clear violation by the Romulans)

 

2379 (SD 56844.9) The Remans conspire with a small group of Romulan officers and stage a coup, later they attempt to destroy Earth. "Nemesis" (ST:N),(Since the conspirators were not the legal government, but only criminals, the Romulan Empire didn't techically engage in any violations.)

 

(Final score, the Romulans are guilty of 6 violations over the 220 year relationship between the Empire and the Federation, but the UFP has 9 violations to answer for.)

 

T'Son, I believe your logic is flawed were the Romulans are concerned.

Edited June 18, 2004 by welfconfed

[TSonofvulcan 0]

Let's see, I didn't say violated the treaty of alzeron, I said Neutral Zone Violations. Question "2267 (SD 3478.2) The Enterprise violates the NZ as a short cut to where they are going. "The Deadly Years"(TOS), (This one is the Federations fault.)" did they cross the neutral zone? V2268 (SD 5027.3) The Enterprise violates the NZ, steals a cloaking device, and kidnaps a Romulan Commander. "The Enterprise Incident"(TOS), (This should qualify as at least three violations, but I'll count it as a single event, and say one more on the UFP.) Wasn't that before the treaty establishing the neutral zone? 2364 (SD 41986.0) Both the Enterprise and a Romulan War Bird investigate the disappearance of outposts on both sides of the NZ, later blamed on the Borg. "The Neutral Zone"(TNG),(This one, I believe, to be a justified violation by both sides. So a free one to both.) I beleve the terms of the treaty that defined the neutral zone stated that if both partys agree that the other may cross they can. 2365 (SD 42609.1) The U.S.S. Yamato violates the NZ to steal alien technology on a planet, but it fails. Later the Enterprise-D violates the NZ and destroys an alien 'transporter site' on the planet. A Romulan ship enters the zone to investigate the Federation invasion of the area. "Contagion"(TNG),(Again, this could be considered two violations, but I'll count it as only one Federation violation) Very true, and I can't beleve the Yamato did that. However, the Romulans also violated the zone there too. 2366 (SD 43349.2) A two man, Romulan scout craft crashes on a Federation world. The Enterprise takes one of the Romulans into custody, but later lets him die when they had the means to save him. A Romulan ship enters Federation space to retrieve the two men, but is able to save only the one survivor. "The Enemy"(TNG), (The first violation was an accident, but the Enterprise made the choice to let the Romulan die. The War Bird entered UFP space only when lives were on the line. One more Federation violation.) Wasn't a neutral zone violation, in fact, the romulans crossed the line without at least asking for legal approval by the federation. 2374 (SD 51721.3) The Federation murders a Romulan senator and frames the Dominion to get the Romulans to enter the war on the Federations side. "By the Pale Moon Light"(DSN), (A horrible violation by the Federation.) How did they do this? (Sorry, I haven't gotton that far in DS9 yet) Ok, now I count 7-7. Something elese though, every time you see a Romulan vessel in Federation Space and they haven't been invited then and it was post-bellum, then they have violated the neutral zone. -counts- 50,60 venture a guess?

[Valeris 2]

T'Son, do you mind putting things in paragraphs? No offense, that was just a bit hard to read. And alright, since you two agree on only established, canon, I will too, although several of my best sources come from books. And T'Son, there were probably not even 50-60 episodes with Romulans in them! How can you say then, that there are 50-60 violations!? I find that very difficult to believe.

[welfconfed 2]

T'Son, in answer to some of your questions.....

 

The Neutral Zone was established as part of the original peace agreement after the Earth/Romulan war of 2156-60

 

The Enterprise did indeed cross into the neutral zone in "The Deadly Years".

 

I called it a 'free violation' to both in "The Neutral Zone" because neither side obtained permission from the other first, but because they were both investigating the deaths of a number of their citizens, I felt that they both should be given a pass on that one.

 

In "Contagion" the Romulans were justified in entering the Zone, as two Galaxy class vessels were clearly in violation. The Romulans were within their rights to enforce the Treaty and demand an explanation from the Federation ships.

 

In "The Enemy", you believe that if a Federation officer was about to die from his Romulan captors withholding medical treatment that the Enterprise would not be justified in crossing the NZ?

 

About "By the Pale Moon Light", (oops )sorry, I didn't mean to give anything away about an episode you haven't seen yet. I don't want to ruin it for you, it is one of DS9's best.

 

While I don't fully agree on your 7-7 count, I think you would have to concede that the UFP/RSE list of treaty violations isn't as one sided as you originally claimed.

 

Your claim of 50 or 60 more Romulan violations, where did you come up with those numbers?

While my previous list focused on episodes and movies with potential violations, the remaining number of episodes that I didn't include were less than a dozen or so.

(and most of them took place on DS9, when the Romulans and the Federation were allies against the Dominion)

 

Allegations are a poor substitute for logic, and I don't think the Prophets would approve of your bitterness toward the Romulans.

[Valeris 2]

He is right, you know, T'Son. What would your fellow Vulcans say about allegations such as these? Welfconfed, does this feel like you are fighting my battle for me? I mean, you are the one who looked up all those sources and things. I am sorry if this is so. Though, it is interesting to be a bit more of the watcher in this debate instead of the one who posts every other post like it so often is with you and I.

Edited June 19, 2004 by Valeris

[welfconfed 2]

No Valeris, I don't feel like I'm fighting your battle for you. You have worked to convince T'Son far longer than I, the least I can do is allow you a moment to sit on the side-lines and rest.

[Valeris 2]

Thanks. I guess that is true...

[TSonofvulcan 0]

I agree that both sides violated the treaty. Generally, the federation and the romulans had a good reason. Except for the times the Romulans came into the federation to do bad stuff and when the Yamato went looking at AN OLD ARCHOLOGICAL SITE! If you are going to cross the neutal zone it would be better to stop at your local favorite cusine rather than to look at old pottery. *sigh* The captain of the Yamato. I get the big numbers (I may have blown it up to big) is when you see a Romulan ship in Federation space without them being invited. Valeris, why on the Enterprise are you depressed?

[Valeris 2]

T'Son we have already pointed out all those times. Are you getting something from non canon sources? And you are right that both often did no thave the best of reasons, but then, they were only human... or Romulan... or Vulcan... or Betazoid... or Trill...

 

The depressed thing was last night. Today, I am... hmmm, I am not sure. I will change my mood when I decide what it is.

[TSonofvulcan 0]

Cannon Sources, TNG Episodes

[Valeris 2]

Like I said before, there are not even 50-60 TNG episodes with Romulans in them. Are you are so desperate to win this debate that you have forgotten how to count?

[TSonofvulcan 0]

I get the big numbers (I may have blown it up to big) is when you see a Romulan ship in Federation space without them being invited.

Valeris, Did I just hear you Committing an Ad Hominem and a possible Straw Man?

Edited June 21, 2004 by TSonofvulcan

[TSonofvulcan 0]

Oh, for those of you who haven't taken Inductive Reasoning:

 

Ad Hominem- An attack on a person who gave the argument rather than the argument

 

Straw Man- Misrepersenting the oppsing view so it is easy to beat

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

Oh, for those of you who haven't taken Inductive Reasoning:

 

Ad Hominem- An attack on a person who gave the argument rather than the argument

 

Straw Man- Misrepersenting the oppsing view so it is easy to beat

an interesting use of very logical judiciary terms. All this on a thread about honor. What an ironic scenario.

[TSonofvulcan 0]

yes, Valeris hates it that I took a logic class since I can challenge her debates now (she is a grade up from me)

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

this is going to be entertaining. Logic and philosophy. Much like debate.

[TSonofvulcan 0]

I hope you enjoy it

[welfconfed 2]

I agree that both sides violated the treaty. Generally, the federation and the romulans had a good reason. Except for the times the Romulans came into the federation to do bad stuff and when the Yamato went looking at AN OLD ARCHOLOGICAL SITE! If you are going to cross the neutal zone it would be better to stop at your local favorite cusine rather than to look at old pottery. *sigh* The captain of the Yamato. I get the big numbers (I may have blown it up to big) is when you see a Romulan ship in Federation space without them being invited. Valeris, why on the Enterprise are you depressed?

Forgive me for being a bit confused....

 

"I agree that both sides violated the treaty." (I'm glad that we can agree on that.)

 

"Generally, the federation and the romulans had a good reason." (Again, I am pleased that we are in agreement that sometimes there were justified incursions.)

 

"Except for the times the Romulans came into the federation to do bad stuff and when the Yamato went looking at AN OLD ARCHOLOGICAL SITE!"

(Are you saying the only time the Federation violated the zone without a "good reason" was the Yamato's violation?)

 

"If you are going to cross the neutral zone it would be better to stop at your local favorite cusine rather than to look at old pottery. *sigh* The captain of the Yamato." (Maybe if the UFP and RSE form a lasting alliance you can open a chain of "Neutral Zone Burgers" )

 

"I get the big numbers (I may have blown it up to big) is when you see a Romulan ship in Federation space without them being invited."

(Is that with or without a "good reason"? Please be specific, which episodes are you referring too?)

[TSonofvulcan 0]

(Are you saying the only time the Federation violated the zone without a "good reason" was the Yamato's violation?)- No, but I always mention that one because I always thought the captain of the Yamato was a little (ok alot) essentric. (Maybe if the UFP and RSE form a lasting alliance you can open a chain of "Neutral Zone Burgers") Sounds great, then we can serve roumulan ale since we aren't in federation space (Is that with or without a "good reason"? Please be specific, which episodes are you referring too?) I'll go through my big book of star trek episodes and give you a list by the end of the week.

[Valeris 2]

T'Son, it was merely a question. A) It has been well over a year since I took inductive reasoning. Not that I have forgotten, but I do not use it naturally anymore. I am still ahead of you in logic because I took deductive reasoning already and you do not have that until the fall. C) On these little threads, they are just for fun, not for an all-out, serious, end-the-world debate. Our logic will be flawed in some areas. Unlike you, I am not a Vulcan. And even Vulcans make mistakes.

 

Do you mean the Star Trek chronology by "big book"? And yes, I would appreciate that too.

[TSonofvulcan 0]

Yes, Star Trek Cronology is "The Big Book" and just because this isn't a formal debate doesn't give you rites to use falacys If you don't beleve me I'll call Mr. Dellenger (our Logic teacher) and get him to tell you :)

[Valeris 2]

Perhaps I should make myself more clear. It is called, "a joke." Not that you would have gotten it...

[TSonofvulcan 0]

How Illogical

[Valeris 2]

I am a Romulan, remember?

[TSonofvulcan 0]

yes, my child, I do remember

[Valeris 2]

Bajorans. *sigh*

[TSonofvulcan 0]

I am a Vulcan, not Bajorian my child

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

Valeris wasn't technically Romulan until the extended scenes came out....

 

This is so enjoyable.

 

VULCAN VS. ROMULAN....

 

Philosophy and logic.....

 

This is great....

I'll be watching from the sidelines.

[TSonofvulcan 0]

Valeris was a romulan in the extended scenes? Valeris, you must let me see those deleted scenes on your DVD sometime.