MATH AND EMOTIONS

[Jeanway 0]

During an extemely emotional ordeal I experienced a few years ago, I enrolled in some higher math classes at college. I was surprised that my crying stopped and I was feeling happier. I think this was better than taking drugs. Has this happened to you?

[nik 0]

Oh yes! To me, there are two very beautiful, almost perfect languages - math and music - and they really aren't too different. It's amazing to be able to understand the symphony of the universe......if we just take time to listen. Yes....... yes indeed!

[Jeanway 0]

nik, can you explain the basic math as it is applied to music, you know the '4'. I read about this once, a long time ago. Are you familiar with what i'm talking about?

 

Also how do you dissolve mineral salts? I mean rock hard stuff?

 

And the math thing, do you think it has to do with which side of the brain is getting the most exercise.? If you let the emotional side rest and calm down the logical side takes over. Sounds logical to me, I know that's what happened.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Jeanway

[nik 0]

Well, let me say that I'm not a musician. I don't study music, and I can only play a few instruments (but I'm trying to learn guitar - want to buy an electric.... different story).

 

However, there are a few thinkg I find fascinating, and I imagine that any real musician could put these aspects into "professional" words. The first is tonality. I'm always interested in things that produce waves, and sound is a wave. Each note on the scale is a vibration at a specific frequency (an 'A' is 440 Hz). An increase by an octave doubles the frequency (our ears are logarithmic, as are our eyes). But what I find more fasinating is the idea of note combinations (chords, for example). In physics, we call these "beats." For example a 'C' note at 261.6 Hz goes well with a 'G' at 392 Hz. The ratio of 'G'''s frequency to 'C''s is very nearly 3:2. So if we plot the "superposition" wave pattern of this combination, we get a very nice enveloped wave - a beat. Howeve a 'C' and an 'F#' don't produce such a beat at a frequency similar to the note frequency. Pythagoras was big on these ratios, and was fascinated that planetary motion followed a similar pattern (Bode's Law - music in nature, remember!). During his time, the musical scale was produced by using ratios of the numbers 1:2:3:4 - the tetrad, and I believe this is what you refer to, is referred to in music. More complex ratios could be made by ratios of those ratios,

e.g., 1/3 of 1/3 or 1/2 of 3/4, etc. So, to get the notes based on the the tetrad, one can ascribe ratios of vibrational frequencies (of a string if you wish). This is called the Pythagorean Scale, but is limited because the ratios must be made of numbers less than 4.

 

That is, if C has a specific frequency , then we define each subsequent notes to have a frequency ratio of roughly 9:8 to the note above it:

c=1:1, d=9/8 of C, e=9/8 of d or 81/64. (This is not exact, but close). I believe that today, the scale can use values of ratios up to 5. Today, the scale is exponential.

 

Well, there's more to music than that, and we can discuss more, but it is indeed a huge topic.

 

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I think the solution of mineral salts depends a lot on the salt and solvent, but I believe many salts dissolve in water. By definition, a salt is an ionic molecule of a metal and a non-metal (sodium chloride, silver nitrate, copper phosphate......) My chemist friends could tell you immediately what a salt dissolves in or not, and there are tables.

 

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When I do math, find that the focus involved typically is distracting enough that it sometimes allows me to forget other things, indeed ignore other things. When deeply focussed, it's almost like being in a trance, and I hear nothing else. Someone has to nudge me to get my attention. So yes, it is like exercise and devotion to a specific activity allows the other to be ignored (apathy is not the right word, but close). I find it very invigorating to come out of a calculation, almost restful.

 

I'll talk to some of my chemist friends and see if I can find out a good reference or solution table for salts. No wait! I got it! You can look it up in the CRC Physics and Chemistry reference manual! Any college (or public, maybe) library.

When I think of solution, I think of the electron wave-functions and their relative strengths in the vicinity of those of the solute, but that's a very complicated calculation, so this is typically relinquished to experiment. And why not? It's an easy test.

 

Fine questions, Jeanway. Rather difficult, actually.

[Jeanway 0]

Well, let me say that I'm not a musician.  I don't study music, and I can only play a few instruments (but I'm trying to learn guitar - want to buy an electric.... different story).

 

However, there are a few thinkg I find fascinating, and I imagine that any real musician could put these aspects into "professional" words.  The first is tonality.  I'm always interested in things that produce waves, and sound is a wave.  Each note on the scale is a vibration at a specific frequency (an 'A' is 440 Hz).  An increase by an octave doubles the frequency (our ears are logarithmic, as are our eyes). But what I find more fasinating is the idea of note combinations (chords, for example). In physics, we  call these "beats."  For example a 'C' note at 261.6 Hz goes well with a 'G' at 392 Hz.  The ratio of 'G'''s frequency to 'C''s is very nearly 3:2.  So if we plot the "superposition" wave pattern of this combination, we get a very nice enveloped wave - a beat. Howeve a 'C' and an 'F#' don't produce such a beat at a frequency similar to the note frequency. Pythagoras was big on these ratios, and was fascinated that planetary motion followed a similar pattern (Bode's Law - music in nature, remember!). During his time, the musical scale was produced by using ratios of the numbers 1:2:3:4 - the tetrad, and I believe this is what you refer to, is referred to in music. More complex ratios could be made by ratios of those ratios,

e.g., 1/3 of 1/3 or 1/2 of 3/4, etc. So, to get the notes based on the the tetrad, one can ascribe ratios of vibrational frequencies (of a string if you wish).  This is called the Pythagorean Scale, but is limited because the ratios must be made of numbers less than 4.

 

That is, if C has a specific frequency  , then we define each subsequent notes to have a frequency ratio of  roughly 9:8 to the note above it:

c=1:1, d=9/8 of C, e=9/8 of d or 81/64.  (This is not exact, but close).  I believe that today, the scale can use values of ratios up to 5.  Today, the scale is exponential.

 

Well, there's more to music than that, and we can discuss more, but it is indeed a huge topic.

 

------------------------------------------

I think the solution of mineral salts depends a lot on the salt and solvent, but I believe many  salts dissolve in water.  By definition, a salt is an ionic molecule of a metal and a non-metal (sodium chloride, silver nitrate, copper phosphate......)  My chemist friends could tell you immediately what a salt dissolves in or not, and there are tables. 

 

---------------------------------------

 

When I do math, find that the focus involved typically is distracting enough that it sometimes allows me to forget other things, indeed ignore other things.  When deeply focussed, it's almost like being in a trance, and I hear nothing else.  Someone has to nudge me to get my attention.  So yes, it is like exercise and devotion to a specific activity allows the other to be ignored (apathy is not the right word, but close).  I find it very invigorating to come out of a calculation, almost restful.

 

I'll talk to some of my chemist friends and see if I can find out a good reference or solution table for salts.  No wait!  I got it!  You can look it up in the CRC Physics and Chemistry reference manual!  Any college (or public, maybe) library.

When I think of solution, I think of the electron wave-functions and their relative strengths in the vicinity of those of the solute, but that's a very complicated calculation, so this is typically relinquished to experiment.  And why not?  It's an easy test.

 

Fine questions, Jeanway. Rather difficult, actually.

 

 

Thank you nik.

 

It sounds like that is what I was talking about, the vibrations. But I have heard it explained a little differently than that. It's all about 4, the tetrad. I know about harmonics, I played the flute for a while and taught myself how to read music. I played in a small Jazz band in college, just for a short time, it was so fun making music with other people. Playing in a band is very different than playing alone. It was a Jazz band but we did play other stuff too. Bode's Law, I do remember but it's been a while. This is why you can tune a guitar or stringed instument to itself. I've strummed a little and played keyboard some also. Just fooling around with cords and things like that too.

 

So can you find this table for the salts? B) Instead of table salt.

 

 

Yes, I felt the same way. Most people labour over formulas and equations, break a sweat, I do too, but I think it's fun. This is why I'm weird. :blink: Give me good word problem and I'm off It's so fun. But you must give the formulas when you give us a problem nik. Poor Fen is still asking me what 'c' is.

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

Same within organ music

[ARMS 0]

Maths would upset me more.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

Math would work for some people but not for others. I think applying yourself to something that interests you whether math, music, art, science etc is a great form of "therapy". We humans tend to be happy when we're learning and growing.

 

For me it was taking chemistry.

[fenriz275 0]

Math usually caused a lot of "emotional" moments for me :blink:

[Jeanway 0]

Math usually caused a lot of "emotional" moments for me :)

 

 

 

 

 

I started to really enjoy math when I stopped being afraid of it. It is or can be intimidating if you don't understand the basics. Many times I had to go back and start again but that only made my foundation stronger.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

During an extemely emotional ordeal I experienced a few years ago, I enrolled in some higher math classes at college.  I was surprised that my crying stopped and I was feeling happier. I think this was better than taking drugs. Has this happened to you?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying that math is a cure to emotions? Emotions aren't a bad thing ya know. :)

[Jeanway 0]

During an extemely emotional ordeal I experienced a few years ago, I enrolled in some higher math classes at college.  I was surprised that my crying stopped and I was feeling happier. I think this was better than taking drugs. Has this happened to you?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying that math is a cure to emotions? Emotions aren't a bad thing ya know. :)

 

 

 

 

 

Well, now that you asked. I lost 3 of my closest family in a short period of time and if you don't think that's difficult then you are very wrong. I was one big emotion walking around, it helped me whether you want to believe it or not, it did.

and I was very happy to make this discovery. Try it the next time your devasted.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

During an extemely emotional ordeal I experienced a few years ago, I enrolled in some higher math classes at college.  I was surprised that my crying stopped and I was feeling happier. I think this was better than taking drugs. Has this happened to you?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying that math is a cure to emotions? Emotions aren't a bad thing ya know. :)

Well, now that you asked. I lost 3 of my closest family in a short period of time and if you don't think that's difficult then you are very wrong.

I didn't say it wasn't difficult.

 

I was one big emotion walking around, it helped me whether you want to believe it or not, it did.

I didn't say it didn't help you.

 

and I was very happy to make this discovery.

I'm still not clear on what the discovery is.

[Jeanway 0]

My crying stopped and I was feeling happy. What's so hard to understand? :lol:

[fenriz275 0]

My crying stopped and I was feeling happy. What's so hard to understand?

Stop, you're confusing me. I can't wrap my head around this concept.

 

Click for Spoiler:

please :lol:

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

My crying stopped and I was feeling happy. What's so hard to understand? :lol:

Your thread is saying that math cured you of emotions. One can't be cured of emotions as they are part of who we are. If you're saying that math cured your sadness, now that would make sense.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

My crying stopped and I was feeling happy. What's so hard to understand? :lol:

Your thread is saying that math cured you of emotions. One can't be cured of emotions as they are part of who we are. If you're saying that math cured your sadness, now that would make sense.

..., all these years I thought sadness was an emotion.????

****

Jeanway, most of us understood what you're saying....

Edited April 27, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[Jeanway 0]

Thank you, I know. I thought it was something I'd like to share, it helped me and might help someone else. That's all I meant. It cured my SADNESS, leaving other emotions intact. :lol:

[nik 0]

  Also how do you dissolve mineral salts?  I mean rock hard stuff?

Here's the table I promised. Actually, it's the online version of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics - a nice compilation of tables and general information.

 

CRC Handbook

 

Click on the link that says "Properties of Inorganic Compounds" and you will get a PDF file (careful... it's 537 pages). The last column in the table describes experimental

solubility of various compounds in various substances. Not to bad. I hope this helps.

[Jeanway 0]

Thanks nik. Alot of people will appreciate this. Hey, did you find that atom you were looking for?

Edited April 29, 2004 by Jeanway

[nik 0]

Thanks nik.  Alot of people will appreciate this. Hey, did you find that atom you were looking for?

Atom? I don't seem to recall looking for an atom..... Perhaps I WASlooking for an atom, and simply forgot that I was. I'll have to go back and check my "to do" list to see if I was indeed looking for an atom, and if so, which one. I hate it when I put things on my "to do" list and then forget to do them, or just lose the "to do" list. If I was indeed looking for an atom, thanks for the reminder.

[Jeanway 0]

Excuse me, nik. A' low energy beam of protons', that's what you were after You needed for an experiment, right? so what

was that all about, anyway?

[nik 0]

Excuse me, nik.  A' low energy beam of protons', that's what you were after You needed for an experiment, right? so what

was that all about, anyway?

Oh, right! Yes, that was successful. As you requested, I posted a summary in the

"Nik at Night" forum. Geesh! I must really be out of the game today..... Everything's going over my head! Sorry!

[Jeanway 0]

Excuse me, nik.  A' low energy beam of protons', that's what you were after :blink: You needed for an experiment, right? so what

was that all about, anyway? :blink:

Oh, right! Yes, that was successful. As you requested, I posted a summary in the

"Nik at Night" forum. Geesh! I must really be out of the game today..... Everything's going over my head! Sorry!

 

 

 

Naa, just takes a little time to get used to us, that's all nik, your doing just fine for a phycisits :) Perhaps a night out with Capt.Wright might help. You two can get " BOXED " together :o

Edited May 1, 2004 by Jeanway

[nik 0]

Naa, just takes a little time to get used to us, that's all nik, your doing just fine for a phycisits Perhaps a night out with Capt.Wright might help. You two can get "  BOXED "  together

I bet the Captain and I would get along great!

[edmcgon 0]

I seem to recall there was a study several years ago which showed that math skills and music skills accessed the same part of the brain.

 

Jeanway,

I will agree that math does effect my emotional state. I tend to be very content (I would even say unemotional) while concentrating on a math problem. After completion, I gain a sense of accomplishment, so I am pleased (sometimes ecstatic depending on the level of difficulty).

 

I can see how that would help during a time of emotional stress. It would provide you an opportunity to shut off the emotional faucet (so to speak).

[Q stole my bike 0]

Physics always makes me happy...and it requires some math knowledge to understand, so I know what you mean.

[Doc Niel 0]

Again,

Another reason to believe that Math and life itself are intertwined.