ENT and the timeline changes

[A l t e r E g o 9]

I hear it all the time; "ENT screwed up the timeline", well here's your chance to finally list them once and for all.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

So far, the only example I've seen is the episode "Regeneration" and that was caused by the movie FIRST CONTACT, not ENT.

[vold 0]

Nah, theres nothing wrong with Regenerations.

 

It explains why the Borg came to the Alpha Quadrant so early assimilated Guinan's world & the 2 outposts at the Neutral Zone at TNG Season 1.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Nah, theres nothing wrong with Regenerations.

 

It explains why the Borg came to the Alpha Quadrant so early assimilated Guinan's world & the 2 outposts at the Neutral Zone at TNG Season 1.

"Regeneration" is a change to the timeline. All it did was alter the reason why the Borg first come to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

In the original timeline, the Borg could never have been in the 21st and 22nd centuries and were first encounterred by the Federation in 2364. It wasn't till a sphere, followed by the Enterprise-E, travelled from 2373 to 2063 and alterred history that "allowed" for the events of the 8th movie and "Regeneration" to happen, making subtle changes to the timeline.

[chunderfish 0]

Well I think that Xindi trench is a pretty big change to the timeline. I can't see how something that catastrophic would not be referred to in the future - and here's a challenge - I bet there's an external shot of Earth lurking somewhere in the other four series where we see Florida, Cuba and Venezuela happily intact!!! (I immediately went to First Contact but the Earth doesn't get round to America).

 

In fact the whole Xindi undertaking of season three seems so huge that it must have repercussions which of course we never hear of. Having said that, the season isn't over yet and they may have already thought of and answered this problem and yet the only way I can see them doing it is by having the whole thing not really have happened.

[vold 0]

"Regeneration" is a change to the timeline.  All it did was alter the reason why the Borg first come to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

In the original timeline, the Borg could never have been in the 21st and 22nd centuries and were first encounterred by the Federation in 2364.  It wasn't till a sphere, followed by the Enterprise-E, travelled from 2373 to 2063 and alterred history that "allowed" for the events of the 8th movie and "Regeneration" to happen, making subtle changes to the timeline.

It's a timeloop thing

 

"Pogo Pradox".

 

Look if its a change, then TNG - Voyager shouldn't exist & things should change too, but it didn't.

 

Hence its still a same timeline. Its merely something that has to happen.

 

Enterprise is about the past, so the future is "written"

 

If this is a series after Voyager's time, then i agree theres lots of changes could happen.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

Chunderfish, First Contact is set 90 years prior to the attack so it wouldn't prove anything. I also remember Daniels saying that the attack wasn't supposed to happen so who knows what will come of this in the future.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Well I think that Xindi trench is a pretty big change to the timeline. I can't see how something that catastrophic would not be referred to in the future - and here's a challenge - I bet there's an external shot of Earth lurking somewhere in the other four series where we see Florida, Cuba and Venezuela happily intact!!! (I immediately went to First Contact but the Earth doesn't get round to America).

 

In fact the whole Xindi undertaking of season three seems so huge that it must have repercussions which of course we never hear of. Having said that, the season isn't over yet and they may have already thought of and answered this problem and yet the only way I can see them doing it is by having the whole thing not really have happened.

ST:FC is set before the Xindi conflict. TOS-era is 100 years later, TNG-era is 200 years later. Just becuase they don't talk about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

"Regeneration" is a change to the timeline.  All it did was alter the reason why the Borg first come to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

In the original timeline, the Borg could never have been in the 21st and 22nd centuries and were first encounterred by the Federation in 2364.  It wasn't till a sphere, followed by the Enterprise-E, travelled from 2373 to 2063 and alterred history that "allowed" for the events of the 8th movie and "Regeneration" to happen, making subtle changes to the timeline.

It's a timeloop thing :P

You're correct, it is indeed a timeloop created by the events in FIRST CONTACT. (the movie, not the event )

 

"Pogo Pradox".

A what?

 

Look if its a change, then TNG - Voyager shouldn't exist & things should change too, but it didn't.

Why would the shows cease to exist when Picard and crew clean up the damage with the exception of some missed Borg debris?

 

Hence its still a same timeline. Its merely something that has to happen.

Of coarse it's the same timeline, it's just been slightly alterred. Realistically, even tiny alterrations would have vast conxequences, but this is STAR TREK we're talking about. :)

 

Enterprise is about the past, so the future is "written"

This doesn't hold as long as the TCW arc is going.

 

If this is a series after Voyager's time, then i agree theres lots of changes could happen.

Well of coarse.

[vold 0]

All i can say to you is, we the viewers are considered the infinite century, where we are looking in the past to see what happens, in other words its all

"written down" lol

 

in other words, whatever we see is ment to be. We're looking at the history of a universe out there.

 

You don't know a Pogo Paradox?

Watch "Relativity" where the 29th century quiz 7 of 9 about time anomalies.

 

Pogo Paradox is 1 of them, an event to change something actually creates that particular thing they intended to end.

 

Time Traveling got many different anomolies, loops, total change, etc.

 

it all depends how u "change time"

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I believe in those temporal anomalies, just not the paradox, pre-destined paradox, nor infinite time-loop.

[vold 0]

Who said anything about predestine.

 

Its just something that had all happened to someone way in the future, watching the past. that's all, they "Us" just watch what already has happened. So what ever changes they make, to the people way in the future, is just something that happened in their past.

 

& what u mean by infinite timeloop? i didn't say anything about that. Whatever that is

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Who said anything about predestine.

 

Its just something that had all happened to someone way in the future, watching the past. that's all, they "Us" just watch what already has happened. So what ever changes they make, to the people way in the future, is just something that happened in their past.

 

& what u mean by infinite timeloop? i didn't say anything about that. Whatever that is

A pre-destined paradox is a form of infinite timeline, which is a timeloop that has no beginning nor end. If the Borg from "Regeneration" are responsible for the Borg's interrest in Humanity, then years later, the Borg send a sphere back to 2063, then in 2152 they wake up and send the message, then centuries later... The future must happen after the past. Thus, logical suggest that you must have an original timeline, then an alterred timeline where the paradox may exist.

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

What about the founding of starfleet? Why is there a starfleet in 2153-2355 while it was founded in 2161

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Starfleet was founded some time in the early-half of the 22nd century.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

What about the founding of starfleet? Why is there a starfleet in 2153-2355 while it was founded in 2161

You're confusing the founding of Starfleet with the founding of the United Federation of Planets. The Federation is what was (or rather will be) founded in 2161.

 

There's something everyone has to remember though, this is a television show. It was made to fit into place with the other 4 series but it's still a TV show. The timeline isn't a real timeline and events that aren't written down yet doesn't mean that they didn't (or won't) happen, it just means that we haven't learned of it yet. The Star Trek timeline is a living timeline and every movie, every episode that is made changes it one way or the other. It could be argued that TNG changed the TOS timeline on several occasions because of times when the script would say "that event happened 100 years ago", yet when you look back at the TOS timeline you see that the event spoken of must have been 94 years ago or 106 years ago.

 

If you worry about keeping the timeline static then the show, the franchise can't grow beyond what it is. Nothing new can be added to it to make it better.

 

I would like for someone to point out actual changes to the established timeline, not additions to the timeline like the Xindi war but changes. Something like if Enterprise had said that Zaphram Cochran died in the attack on Florida rather then vanishing into space as was established in TOS. Show me actual changes that Enterprise has made.

[trekzone 0]

Well I think that Xindi trench is a pretty big change to the timeline. I can't see how something that catastrophic would not be referred to in the future - and here's a challenge - I bet there's an external shot of Earth lurking somewhere in the other four series where we see Florida, Cuba and Venezuela happily intact!!! (I immediately went to First Contact but the Earth doesn't get round to America).

 

In fact the whole Xindi undertaking of season three seems so huge that it must have repercussions which of course we never hear of. Having said that, the season isn't over yet and they may have already thought of and answered this problem and yet the only way I can see them doing it is by having the whole thing not really have happened.

lets digress for a moment, the VOY episode "The Chute" - a major character changing event for Kim and Paris.....why was it never mentioned again?

 

that is a very extreme and hollow argument....leave the **** series alone until it is complete....then judge....how dare YOU judge a series based on a work in progress - where you havent seen all the episodes (even if their not made).

 

EDITED BY MODERATOR

[chunderfish 0]

lets digress for a moment, the VOY episode "The Chute" - a major character changing event for Kim and Paris.....why was it never mentioned again?

 

that is a very extreme and hollow argument....leave the bloody series alone until it is complete....then judge....how dare YOU judge a series based on a work in progress - where you havent seen all the episodes (even if their not made).

Em - excuse me - I don't actually see what point you are trying to make nor indeed why you feel the need to be quite so rude in making it.

 

And I DARE to make judgements because without making them I would have no opinion to voice and therefore no contribution to make. I love this show and am just trying to join in with the discussion.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Well I think that Xindi trench is a pretty big change to the timeline. I can't see how something that catastrophic would not be referred to in the future - and here's a challenge - I bet there's an external shot of Earth lurking somewhere in the other four series where we see Florida, Cuba and Venezuela happily intact!!! (I immediately went to First Contact but the Earth doesn't get round to America).

 

In fact the whole Xindi undertaking of season three seems so huge that it must have repercussions which of course we never hear of. Having said that, the season isn't over yet and they may have already thought of and answered this problem and yet the only way I can see them doing it is by having the whole thing not really have happened. :wub:

lets digress for a moment, the VOY episode "The Chute" - a major character changing event for Kim and Paris.....why was it never mentioned again?

 

that is a very extreme and hollow argument....leave the **** series alone until it is complete....then judge....how dare YOU judge a series based on a work in progress - where you havent seen all the episodes (even if their not made).

 

EDITED BY MODERATOR

Dude... what's your problem?

Edited February 8, 2004 by TransporterMalfunction

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Yeah TZ that was a tad harsh but I do agree with you about waiting for the series to end before a FINAL overall judgement of ENT is rendered.

 

I do in fact believe tbtp have a plan to bring it all together and knock our socks off, that is, if they could stop being distracted and needing to keep reworking it every other episode.

 

As for the thread topic, I still have not seen anything to suggest that the line: "ENT has totally screwed up the timeline" has a shred of truth to it.

[trekzone 0]

well it may be harsh, but people that bag the work of Paramount and B&B will likely get the show axed.....wow, im surprised that my thoughts are considered outcast..

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I'm not sure what you mean, I'm not familiar with the Austraillian way of saying things. Please rephrase.

Edited February 9, 2004 by Captain Jean-Luc Picard

[trekzone 0]

well it may be harsh, but people that bag the work of Paramount and B&B will likely get the show axed.....wow, im surprised that my thoughts are considered outcast..

people that constantly and publicly say that the show is bad will get it cancelled

 

wow, im surprised that my thoughts are considered outcast..

 

clear enough?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I have not heard the word "bag" used in the place of "complain about" - that was the confussion, you don't have to be condescending about it. A simple explanation of your statement would have done nicely.

 

As for your statement, people who complain about the show will not get it cancelled. UPN not being satisfied with ENT's ratings and fans who campaign for the show's cancellation will probably be what gets it cancelled.

[fredbroca 0]

Right now I believe that Danels said that because of the Xindi arc time is now changing but that is how TPTB are useing to do anything they want with the timeline. The one thing that bothers me is this thing with mindmelding as they don't do it. Now I did miss one of the ep. in the second season when Tpol went to court so maybe they explaine it their but why in the enterprise time they do not know how to mindmeld but in TOS it is a comon thing. Sorry if this is a nit instead of a timeline thing.

[trekzone 0]

actually it is currently "stigmatic" because of the select few that can do it.

 

after that episode, they may have sweeping changes on Vulcan...

[Red Shirt Volunteer 0]

Well I think that Xindi trench is a pretty big change to the timeline. I can't see how something that catastrophic would not be referred to in the future - and here's a challenge - I bet there's an external shot of Earth lurking somewhere in the other four series where we see Florida, Cuba and Venezuela happily intact!!! (I immediately went to First Contact but the Earth doesn't get round to America).

 

In fact the whole Xindi undertaking of season three seems so huge that it must have repercussions which of course we never hear of. Having said that, the season isn't over yet and they may have already thought of and answered this problem and yet the only way I can see them doing it is by having the whole thing not really have happened.

I think the timeline is pretty solid, but I have to agree with Chunderfish that these are two major events that leave B & B some accounting to do. On the other hand, it doesn't really bother me if they do make some changes for the sake of a better series, as long as they don't throw away the spirit of the show - and I think they've done a pretty good job of keeping it together so far. I have better things to do with my time than cross-reference Stardates from old episodes and/or books (as some do) and Ent events.

 

I'm curious to see how they resolve the Xindi issue and the scar from the weapon, but not expecting anything great. I think they're going to have to wipe the Xindi out entirely and destroy all records or go back in time and prevent that initial contact with whoever it was that told them Earth would attack them to make me believe it. The main thing is that the episodes this season have been vast improvements on previous efforts and the Xindi storyline is helping the show, although viewers are still low as you can see here:

 

Enterprise Ratings

 

Let's avoid the whole UPN vs. quality of Ent. argument as the reason why ratings are dropping if we can. The point is that the number of viewers are kind of stabilising now.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

Someone please explain how women's uniforms went from same as men in ENT to miniskirts in TOS and then back to same as men in the movies and later series?

[vold 0]

Truthfully, its just plain old fashion clothing in TOS's time of making.

 

Its easily disregarded from the story.

 

but then again we can just say, the females want to put some feminine touches to the ship.

 

or they got complains of too tight.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

Someone please explain how women's uniforms went from same as men in ENT to miniskirts in TOS and then back to same as men in the movies and later series?

 

 

If you want to nitpick uniform discrepancies they you can't overlook glaring goofs occurring in future series. First of all what about the changes made between TOS and TMP which are separated (story wise) by about a year and a half? Secondly, how do we explain the changes of uniform between TMP and TWOK? Finally, throughout the three series TNG, DS9 & VOY new changes to the uniforms were made almost every other season yet in TNG: Tapestry we are shown new ensigns still wear the same basic uniform design as they wore in TUC some 70 years earlier?

Edited February 9, 2004 by Alterego