City on the Edge of Forever

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I have been treating myself lately to an episode on the weekends. I continue to be amazed at how well done the drama in these shows was. I forgot many of the little things that infused humor into the episodes like how Kirk appealed to Spock's pride to get inspire him to rig the tricorder "sometimes I expect too much of you" he said. Or at the beginning when Kirk started to question the medication and McCoy had treated Sulu before he got it then McCoy looked at Kirk and asked "you were about to give a medical opinion?"

 

They also said a lot without saying much. With a look - or a look away - Kirk knew Spock knew how he was feeling about Edith.

 

I wish the newer series had these little touches that strengthen the character development.

 

On a more serious note I did think it interesting that Edith Keeler's peace initiative would have actually caused Hitler to win WWII and change history. That's not exactly the message I tend to associate with ST.

[Abakai2003 0]

On a more serious note I did think it interesting that Edith Keeler's peace initiative would have actually caused Hitler to win WWII and change history.  That's not exactly the message I tend to associate with ST.

But the message is a true one, with out the aid of the Americans the Alies had no hope of winning the conflict.

 

If you look at when the Americans enterd the las two Wold Wars it might explain president Bushes attitude non....

They where late for the last to World Wars so he's trying to make up for it by being realy punctual this time.

 

but back to the point I loved this eppisode I do like this eppisode and I think your right UH about character development, In the later shows it took them allmost to the 7th season to attane the same level of development.

[prometheus 0]

But the message is a true one, with out the aid of the Americans the Alies had no hope of winning the conflict.

 

Oh really? (I love American arrogance). Yee haa. Yes siree. Thank the Lord for the Americans! Whatever help they gave was about bloody time. As per usual, the Americans stood back and did nothing until they got their own toes stood on. Then they went forward like the big dumb steam roller that they were, shooting everything in sight. Im sure they loved that: shooting and bonking away. Typical.

[Abakai2003 0]

But the message is a true one, with out the aid of the Americans the Alies had no hope of winning the conflict.

 

Oh really? (I love American arrogance). Yee haa. Yes siree. Thank the Lord for the Americans! Whatever help they gave was about bloody time. As per usual, the Americans stood back and did nothing until they got their own toes stood on. Then they went forward like the big dumb steam roller that they were, shooting everything in sight. Im sure they loved that: shooting and bonking away. Typical.

I agree totaly but the fact still remains that without the american force of numbers we would not have lasted much longer, we where being hurt on all fronts.

[prometheus 0]

I think it is a case that the Americans finished off what the British allied forces had begun. A bit like someone loosening a jar for someone!

[Mike 5]

I have been treating myself lately to an episode on the weekends. I continue to be amazed at how well done the drama in these shows was.  I forgot many of the little things that infused humor into the episodes like how Kirk appealed to Spock's pride to get inspire him to rig the tricorder "sometimes I expect too much of you" he said.  Or at the beginning when Kirk started to question the medication and McCoy had treated Sulu before he got it then McCoy looked at Kirk and asked "you were about to give a medical opinion?"

 

They also said a lot without saying much.  With a look - or a look away - Kirk knew Spock knew how he was feeling about Edith. 

 

I wish the newer series had these little touches that strengthen the character development.

 

TOS at it's best for sure. The character interactions seemed to come so easy at times..The chemistry between the big 3 characters was amazing. It is too bad we couldn't transplant those relationships and interactions onto the crew of Enterprise. Oh if it were only that easy..I believe it will be a long time before we see that kind of chemisty on Enterprise. I just hope they strive towards that goal..

[FestivalFreak 0]

I agree with spacetigger, it's going to be a long time until we see charater chemisty on Enterprise. It's something that the actor's must strive for. I think it also has to do with the personnalitys of each member of the cast. They need to "click" well off screen as well as on.

"City on the Edge of Forever" was a very sobering, powerful episode. Kirk's role in it was amazing. The raw emotions running through Kirk and Dr. McCoy are hard to forget.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

The post contained in the spoiler is a rather long reply that has nothing to do with the episode in question but I felt had to reply. I'm putting it in a spoiler only because it is so far off the topic of this episode and I know how annoying that can be at times. Besides the post is kind of rambling and gives a bit of the history of World War II lol

 

Anyway to respond to the issue of this thread, "City on the Edge of Forever" was my favorite of all the TOS episodes. While the premise of why Edith must die is a bit surprising it is logical (no pun intended). The peace movement is great and everyone (almost everyone) wants peace but there are times when peace isn't practical. The Peace movement was really what kept the United States out of the war as long as we were. It wasn't until war was declared on us that we stepped into the battle. So, like the episode says if we delayed even longer then the Nazi's likely would have develope the Atomic bomb first and they had the V2 rocket to carry it. Put those 2 things together and it's not hard to imagine Nazi domination of the world.

 

It was a strong message to put into Star Trek though, but at that time of the 1960's it seems to have been popular to to write stories that involved the Nazis or Nazi-like forces. Look at the episode "Patterns of Force" and the series "Mission Impossible".

 

Click for Spoiler:

As per usual, the Americans stood back and did nothing until they got their own toes stood on.

 

Yeah, we waited to enter into the war until it affected us but before it affected us why should we send our troops to die in another European war? A war that was caused by European appeasement of Hitler? Don't forget, it was the Nazis that declared war on the United States on December 11th of 1941, the U.S. didn't go looking for a war to fight in Europe. Up till then the only country the United States was at war with was Japan and that was because they attacked us.

 

Then they went forward like the big dumb steam roller that they were, shooting everything in sight. Im sure they loved that: shooting and bonking away. Typical.

 

That's actually not the case. It took quite some time before we were ready to fight. Our first real action in WWII was the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo April 18, 1942. For those that may not remember what that was that was when the Army took it's B-25 bombers and put them onto aircraft carriers and went and bombed Tokyo. They did so in a one way mission, there was no way the bombers would have enough fuel to make it back to the carriers, and even if they made it back to the carriers they couldn't land because the B-25's were land based planes and had no business on a carrier in the first place. Most of the planes crashed landed in China and many of the crews were captured and executed.

 

Anyway, the first real American action in the European theater was on Aug 17, 1942. Almost a year after war was declared on the United States. It was more then 11 months before the United States invaded North Africa to fight the Nazis (Nov 8, 1942) and it wasn't until Jan 27, 1943 that the United States began it's first air raid on Germany. The day the European war really started for the United States wasn't until June 6 of 1944 though, that's 2 and a half years after war was declared.

 

Of course none of this takes into account the Lend Lease Act that supplied the European countries that were fighting the Nazis (it was an American pilot in an American plane with British markings that found the Bismark so England could sink it), it doesn't take into account the Flying Tigers that were made up of American Army pilots that were "retired" so they could fight Japan for China.

 

So maybe it is "American arrogance", but it's arrogance that was paid for in blood during 2 world wars. America alone did not win the wars, but without America in those wars this world would be a vastly different place and not for the better I believe.

[startrektrekkie2003 0]

That is one episode that I will never forget.

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

Like VBG I have put this post in a spoiler as it focuses on the points brought up about American involvement in WW2, rather that the topic of the thread (apologies to UnicornHunter):

 

Click for Spoiler:

As per usual, the Americans stood back and did nothing until they got their own toes stood on.

 

That statement is actually incorrect. At the time America there was a large group of people who held with the old isolationist beliefs that originally led to the mass migration of people from Europe. This group actively campaigned (in a similar way to the anti-war movement of today) against war as they were not willing to see fellow Americans die in a war that they considered a matter for Europe to deal with, as they had started the war and had previously appeased the Hitler regime. Many of the people also blamed Europe for the economic depression that had hit the country in the 20s.

 

The isolationists were a very powerful sector but it must be stressed that they did not represent everyone in the US, especially not President Roosevelt, who actively went about deconstructing the legislation that supported this ideal.

 

After much 'arm twisting' by Roosevelt the arms embargo provision of the Neutrality Act was repealed, allowing Britain to order a large amount of arms, munitions and military equipment, especially aircraft (as long as they were on a cash-and-carry basis and the ships exporting the goods were not US marked).

 

A major fact that often seems to be overlooked is the influence of film on American public opinion. After people had seen for themselves the destruction and devastation caused by the Blitz on London there was a mass wave of sympathy in the US that undoubtedly played a factor.

 

Yes the attack on Pearl Harbour did signal a massive shock, however it would be naive to generalise this as the one and only factor to American involvement, as the short sighted isolationist ideals had to be dealt with and ultimately were by President Roosevelt.

 

Then they went forward like the big dumb steam roller that they were, shooting everything in sight. Im sure they loved that: shooting and bonking away. Typical.

 

Even though I'm British I still find that comment extremely insulting. Let us not forget the American courageousness when they were pinned down on the shores of Normandy, the willingness for them to give the ultimate sacrifice to protect our today. No matter how much you wish to criticise US institutions such as the weapons trade or perhaps the government itself, the one thing that is completely out of order is the criticism of the normal soldier who traded his future for yours, allowing you the right to voice your opinion (assuming of course that had Hitler successfully invaded your ancestry would have evaded slaughter after every male in Britain over 'fighting age' had been eradicated).

[NordicBearskin 0]

I'll put in American involvement in a spoiler. (it's short)

 

Click for Spoiler:

America had a small part to play in WW1. Their main force was only deployed when the German army was on the cusp of defeat, streched too far and too thin in a last gamble offensive by the desperate German High Command. Their presence helped no doubt, as did their supplies, but the Allies would have won with or without American intervention. Also, don't forget that America too appeased Hitler and even supported him in the beginning, as did most other European countries, seeing him as a shield against communism. If anyone wants to debate this then please go ahead, I need the revision of my GCSE's!

 

 

Really a new topic dealing with this question should be set up in either Off Topic or Risa.

 

Note: I also admire Roosevelt for his global policy in dealing with Hitler

[mj 7]

I have been treating myself lately to an episode on the weekends. I continue to be amazed at how well done the drama in these shows was.  I forgot many of the little things that infused humor into the episodes like how Kirk appealed to Spock's pride to get inspire him to rig the tricorder "sometimes I expect too much of you" he said.  Or at the beginning when Kirk started to question the medication and McCoy had treated Sulu before he got it then McCoy looked at Kirk and asked "you were about to give a medical opinion?"

 

They also said a lot without saying much.  With a look - or a look away - Kirk knew Spock knew how he was feeling about Edith. 

 

I wish the newer series had these little touches that strengthen the character development.

 

 

That is a major reason why to this day, for me, TOS remains my favorite Trek series.

[tbree_dVelnahr 0]

I think you've put your finger on it! I've been trying to understand what it is that is lacking from all the other subsequent Trek series and you've nailed it. It is all the subleties, the nuances of character development --- the out and out acting ability of the original crew coupled with the calibre of fine writing. This is and will always be the only Trek for me. I've sampled the others and they don't ring true for me. City on the Edge of Forever was indeed one of the series' best having won an award. It is a beautiful story of courage, conviction and strength. It doesn't get any better than this!

 

T'Bree

[edmcgon 0]

I have said it in other threads, but it bears repeating: "City on the Edge of Forever" was, for me, the finest episode of ANY show ever made.

 

Whenever something bad happens for no apparent reason, this episode is what I think of.

[Admiral Kirk 1]

The city on the edge of forever is one of my favs. Has anyone read Harlan Ellison's original script? As for the WWII comment I agree with VBG/