The Voyage Home

[Stelfan 0]

The Voyage Home is IMO one of the best ST movies ever, however there is one thing about the movie that irritates me..

 

It is just to easy to time travel, I have always felt as if time travel was totally impossible, there has not even been an attempt at it in the TNG or any of the other 24'the century series. Yet it is not very hard in the 23rd century..

 

What are your thoughts and opinions?

 

By the way, my apologies for asking this question in The Undiscovered Country thread.. I was pretty tired.. *feel stupid* :)

Edited January 7, 2004 by Stelfan

[gul_nodrog 2]

I thought time travel looked much more difficult in The Voyage Home than it does any other time we see it. All that whoop-de-doo and dream sequence stuff was just weird.

 

Two time travel eps that come to mind are "Children of Time" and "Trials & Tribbleations" (DS9). In both cases you just see a flash of light on the bridge or something like that and voila, there they are in the past or the future.

 

I do find it funny that Kirk and Co. make it look like it's just as easy as deciding to go to a different "when." However, The Voyage Home is an awesome movie (probably my favorite) and one that makes me laugh every time I watch it. Just a joy to watch.

[Mike 5]

Perhaps they did make it look and seem too easy. "Slingshot around the sun and you're in time warp"..The Voyage home was a great movie though..This has me wondering why TNG never did any time travel episodes..It would have been even more easy for them being in the 24th century..It actually never dawned on me until I was responding to this post..They really didn't do any time travel episodes did they?..Well of course in 'First Contact' they did but not in the TV series..

[Cramase 0]

It is all rather curious how time travel is only available in certain situations, i mean, theres plenty of time both in the movies and the series where time travel would have been useful, but it wasnt even raised, even though its seems to be as easy as just releasig some chroniton particles in front of you - a la First Contact

[Stelfan 0]

It is all rather curious how time travel is only available in certain situations, i mean, theres plenty of time both in the movies and the series where time travel would have been useful, but it wasnt even raised, even though its seems to be as easy as just releasig some chroniton particles in front of you - a la First Contact

Yeah, it seems quite easy in FC too.. Now when they have done it one time, why not do it again? Just re-create what the Borg did..

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Perhaps they did make it look and seem too easy. "Slingshot around the sun and you're in time warp"..The Voyage home was a great movie though..This has me wondering why TNG never did any time travel episodes..It would have been even more easy for them being in the 24th century..It actually never dawned on me until I was responding to this post..They really didn't do any time travel episodes did they?..Well of course in 'First Contact' they did but not in the TV series..

Star Trek: The Next Generation time travel episodes:

 

Season 2 - "Time Squared"

Season 3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Season 5 - "Cause and Effect"

Season 5 - "Time's Arrow, Part I"

Season 6 - "Time's Arrow, Part II"

Season 6 - "Timescape"

Season 7 - "All Good Things..., Part I"

Season 7 - "All Good Things..., Part II"

 

There were others that involved time travel, the above are the ones were it's a central plot.

[Mike 5]

Perhaps they did make it look and seem too easy. "Slingshot around the sun and you're in time warp"..The Voyage home was a great movie though..This has me wondering why TNG never did any time travel episodes..It would have been even more easy for them being in the 24th century..It actually never dawned on me until I was responding to this post..They really didn't do any time travel episodes did they?..Well of course in 'First Contact' they did but not in the TV series..

Star Trek: The Next Generation time travel episodes:

 

Season 2 - "Time Squared"

Season 3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Season 5 - "Cause and Effect"

Season 5 - "Time's Arrow, Part I"

Season 6 - "Time's Arrow, Part II"

Season 6 - "Timescape"

Season 7 - "All Good Things..., Part I"

Season 7 - "All Good Things..., Part II"

 

There were others that involved time travel, the above are the ones were it's a central plot.

Really? Pretty incredible that I didn't think of those episodes. You're right of course..However I don't believe that "Yesterdays Enterprise" was a time traveling episode. Wasn't it just a different reality rather than traveling thru time??

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Perhaps they did make it look and seem too easy. "Slingshot around the sun and you're in time warp"..The Voyage home was a great movie though..This has me wondering why TNG never did any time travel episodes..It would have been even more easy for them being in the 24th century..It actually never dawned on me until I was responding to this post..They really didn't do any time travel episodes did they?..Well of course in 'First Contact' they did but not in the TV series..

Star Trek: The Next Generation time travel episodes:

 

Season 2 - "Time Squared"

Season 3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise"

Season 5 - "Cause and Effect"

Season 5 - "Time's Arrow, Part I"

Season 6 - "Time's Arrow, Part II"

Season 6 - "Timescape"

Season 7 - "All Good Things..., Part I"

Season 7 - "All Good Things..., Part II"

 

There were others that involved time travel, the above are the ones were it's a central plot.

Really? Pretty incredible that I didn't think of those episodes. You're right of course..However I don't believe that "Yesterdays Enterprise" was a time traveling episode. Wasn't it just a different reality rather than traveling thru time??

No. It was the same reallity, only a different timeline. The time travel is when the Enterprise-C exits and then re-enters the termporal rift.

 

Also, here's something for you guys to think about: Sela, the daughter of Natasha Yar from an alternate timeline, should have allways existed from TNG's point of view.

 

Here's a timeline:

2344: Enterprise-C engages Romulans in order to protect a Klingon outpost, a blast of torpedoes blows open a temporal rift, which pulls in the Ent-C.

2366: Enterprise-C emerges from the termporal rift, discovered by the Enterprise-D durring a war with the Klingon Empire. Less than 100 have survived, only Captain Garrett and Lt. Castieo survived from the senior officers. Captain Garrett is killed in a Klingon attack, leading to Castieo taking command. Back on the Enterprise-D, Guinnan explains to Natasha Yar that she's not suppose to be there, that she's suppose to be dead. Since Tasha "should" have had an empty death, Captain Picard gives her permission to travel back with the Enterprise-C.

2344: The Enterprise-C returns, only to be destroyed by the 4 Romulan Warbirds she had previosly engaged, but Tasha Yar was among the few survivors.

2345: Natasha Yar gives birth to a half-Romulan daughter, Sela.

2349: Natasha Yar takes Sela, and attempts to escape, but Sela causes Natasha's escape to fail, leading to Natasha's death.

2366: "Yesterday's Enterprise"

2368/69: "Redemption"

2369: "Unification"

[Cramase 0]

True, there are a number of episodes that involve time travel, but how many of them involve intended time travel? Where they make a concious decision and attempt to travel in time? Thats what we were originally talking about

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

To me, time travel is time travel, I don't think it really matters why they travel through time, just as long as they do. However, I believe "Time's Arrow" and "Yesterday's Enterprise" are the only episodes where they travel through time on purpose.

[Cramase 0]

The thing I hate about time travel is how easy it is to create paradoxes. I mean, in ST:FC The borg go back in time to assimilate earth in the past, but if earth was assimilated in the past, then they would never have had to travel back in time in from the 24th century. But if they didnt, then earth wouldnt have been assilimated in the past, and they would have had to go back etc. etc. etc. it just goes on and on.

Theoretically, creating a temoral paradox would cause the universe to explode. Lets hope time only ever goes in one direction eh?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

The thing I hate about time travel is how easy it is to create paradoxes. I mean, in ST:FC The borg go back in time to assimilate earth in the past, but if earth was assimilated in the past, then they would never have had to travel back in time in from the 24th century. But if they didnt, then earth wouldnt have been assilimated in the past, and they would have had to go back etc. etc. etc. it just goes on and on.

Theoretically, creating a temoral paradox would cause the universe to explode. Lets hope time only ever goes in one direction eh?

I don't believe that would create a paradox. Infact, I don't believe the popular "grandfather paradox" is even possible.

 

Timeline A: Invent a time machine, grab a pistol, and travel back 60 years.

 

Timeline B: You've arrived in 1944, find your grandfather, and shoot him. Then you return to 2004, only to find that your father never existed, there's no signs of you ever existing, and no one knows who you are!

 

That is what I believe would actually happen. You need to think beyond the conventional cause-and-effect way of things.

[Cramase 0]

No way, how could you exist if your father was never born? If you had a different father, that would make you a different person. If you were a different person, you would not have gone back and shot your grandfather (who isnt your grandfather anymore since you have a different father) If your 'grandfather' isnt shot, then your original father lives, and you go back to being the person you originally were. If you were the person you originally were, then you would have gone back in time and shot your grandfather..... (you get the point)

 

You have to use the conventional cause-and-effect method because there is no other method to use - Every cause has an effect = Fact

[ensign_beedrill 0]

It is just to easy to time travel, I have always felt as if time travel was totally impossible, there has not even been an attempt at it in the TNG or any of the other 24'the century series. Yet it is not very hard in the 23rd century..

It's not easy. It is very, very difficult and extremely dangerous. It is much too risky to try (unless of course in dire circumstances or you are Kirk... or both). Remember the discussion Kirk and McCoy had? McCoy was very skeptical about going back in time. He was afraid they might get too close to the sun and pretty much said that the plan was crazy... insane. That sort of shows how dangerous it is.

 

It also involves very complex calculations with many variables. When they were going back to their own time, the mass of the ship had changed because of the added water and whales. Spock couldn't get exact figures and had to guess. I wouldn't hinge my life on a guess just to travel back in time, even if it was Spock's guess. Spock's guess got them crashing into Earth. They almost collided with the Golden Gate Bridge. It's lucky they landed in the water... they nearly missed hitting land and taking out several buildings and many people.

 

It's not easy at all to time travel this way. Most captains probably wouldn't consider this option because of all of the chances involved. One slightly off calculation and WHAM! you're frying in the sun.

[Cramase 0]

Ok, so that's the 'slingshot round the sun idea' out the window for safety reasons, but what about the method used in ST:FC? That didnt seem to involve much danger

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

No way, how could you exist if your father was never born? If you had a different father, that would make you a different person. If you were a different person, you would not have gone back and shot your grandfather (who isnt your grandfather anymore since you have a different father) If your 'grandfather' isnt shot, then your original father lives, and you go back to being the person you originally were. If you were the person you originally were, then you would have gone back in time and shot your grandfather..... (you get the point)

 

You have to use the conventional cause-and-effect method because there is no other method to use - Every cause has an effect = Fact

Allow me to explain further:

 

Timeline A: Invent a time machine, grab a pistol, and travel back 60 years.

 

Timeline B: You've arrived in 1944, find your grandfather, and shoot him. Then you return to 2004, only to find that your father never existed, there's no signs of you ever existing, and no one knows who you are!

 

When you're in the past, you become a component of that time perriod. The changes to the future do not effect you becuase you are not a part of that changing future. In effect, you would be from a "previous timeline" not effected by changes in the future due to being in the past. Does this make sense to you? When time travel is involved, linear cause-and-effect doesn't allways apply.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Ok, so that's the 'slingshot round the sun idea' out the window for safety reasons, but what about the method used in ST:FC? That didnt seem to involve much danger

In ST:FC, Geordi says he recreated the temporal rift created by the sphere. That doesn't mean they know how to create a rift to a different time perriod and place.

[Cramase 0]

In ST:FC, Geordi says he recreated the temporal rift created by the sphere. That doesn't mean they know how to create a rift to a different time perriod and place. 

 

True, although that does raise an interesting question though. Surely the rift created by the sphere was designed to travel back to a specific time and place, how would re-creating it allow them to get back again?

 

If you dont get what i mean, imagine entering the co-ordinates into a transporter and beaming yourself somewhere, if you then used a transporter at that location and entered the co-ordinates again, you would simply re-materialise in the same place - You justhave to imagine that the co-ordinates are the temporal rift 'settings'

 

Also... If the Borg can create temporal rifts the whatever time period they want, why didnt they travel back to a time when noone would have been able to resist them??

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

In ST:FC, Geordi says he recreated the temporal rift created by the sphere. That doesn't mean they know how to create a rift to a different time perriod and place. 

 

True, although that does raise an interesting question though. Surely the rift created by the sphere was designed to travel back to a specific time and place, how would re-creating it allow them to get back again?

 

If you dont get what i mean, imagine entering the co-ordinates into a transporter and beaming yourself somewhere, if you then used a transporter at that location and entered the co-ordinates again, you would simply re-materialise in the same place - You justhave to imagine that the co-ordinates are the temporal rift 'settings'

 

Also... If the Borg can create temporal rifts the whatever time period they want, why didnt they travel back to a time when noone would have been able to resist them??

I assumed the rift was two-way, so all they had to do was open the same rift, and fly back through it. It would be as if they never left from Earth's point of view.

 

They did, the only reason why they were stopped was becuase the Enterprise-E was protected by the temporal wake, and as a result, followed them back into the past. Others have suggested that the Borg could go back in time in their space, then travel to Earth. Maybe the Borg didn't have transwarp conduits that go to Earth at that time in history, or maybe they would have had to worry about not-yet-assimilated cultures of the time. In any event, I allways thought the cube was coming to assimilate the UFP, with the sphere going back in time as a "backup plan".

[Cramase 0]

I suppose it's one of those things that could be argued about forever without anyone coming to a satisfying conclusion

[Admiral Kirk 1]

I love ST IV! It's very different form the other films.

[Cramase 0]

Yeah, it just happens to be my favourite TOS film, I dont know why, I just really like it more than the others Edited January 9, 2004 by Cramase

[DrWho42 13]

I guess the laws of physics work differently in the TOS movie era.....

doctorwho42avenger@hotmail.com

'In the spaces between space itself, in the timeless region outside time, a blue box spins through the void. Both creature and machine, yet strangely neither, this blue box is a TARDIS, a travelling machine skimming across the surface of space-time, occaisonally dipping below the surface to spend a while in the murky depths of reality, where days pass in order and the laws of science stay constant. This TARDIS disguises itself as a police box, an old communications device from a planet called Earth, a thing of wood and blue paint with a flashing light on top. Inside, the TARDIS - which, what with the rules of physics having no bearing outside conventional space-time, is bigger inside than out - adopts a different guise, that of a technological marvel, gleaming white futurism decorated in a refined Victorian manner.' -Doctor Who: Hope written by Mark Clapham

[Stelfan 0]

I guess the laws of physics work differently in the TOS movie era.....

doctorwho42avenger@hotmail.com

:unsure: I guess so

[VaBeachGuy 12]

I thought time travel looked much more difficult in The Voyage Home than it does any other time we see it.  All that whoop-de-doo and dream sequence stuff was just weird.

 

Two time travel eps that come to mind are "Children of Time" and "Trials & Tribbleations" (DS9).  In both cases you just see a flash of light on the bridge or something like that and voila, there they are in the past or the future.

 

I do find it funny that Kirk and Co. make it look like it's just as easy as deciding to go to a different "when."  However, The Voyage Home is an awesome movie (probably my favorite) and one that makes me laugh every time I watch it.  Just a joy to watch.

107109[/snapback]

 

I agree, they (The TOS crew) had to calculate all the variables to make it to the correct era and all of that and then there was no guarantee that they would make it to the proper time anyway.

 

Plus it was based on the established method of time travel set up in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" from TOS.