Theory why 5, 9, & 10 bombed with fans.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

The Motion Picture - Reunites crew after 10 years.

The Wrath of Kahn - Sequal to TOS episode.

The Search for Spock - TWOK sequal, Spock comes back to life.

The Voyage Home - TSFS sequal, time travel adventure to present day. "Save the whales!"

The Final Frontier - Stand-alone adventure with little to due with the series, bombs in theaters.

The Undiscovered Country - TNG is in it's 5th season, movie shows how peace came to be between the UFP and Klingon Empire.

Generations - TNG goes to the big screen with El'Aurrians, the Duras sisters, Captain Kirk, and much more.

First Contact - The Borg are back!

Insurrection - Stand-alone adventure with little to due with the series, bombs in theaters.

Nemesis - Stand-alone adventure with little to due with the series, bombs in theaters.

 

Notice what 5, 9, & 10 have in common? Notice how these are the movies the fans feel let them down?

 

My theory is that these were good movies, but fans subconscieously looked for a way to tear them down since they didn't add to the franchise beyond a stand-alone story.

 

What do you think?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

As written that's a nice theory. If it's true then it seems the fans just don't want stand alone films and tptb would do well to take notice and only do films which have everything to do with the respective series or the saga as a whole.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Funny thing is, I enjoy stand alone stories and felt that the 3 disliked by fans had lots to do with the series, just not directly.

[Data 0]

As written that's a nice theory. If it's true then it seems the fans just don't want stand alone films and tptb would do well to take notice and only do films which have everything to do with the respective series or the saga as a whole.

Maybe so, AE.

[Yillara Skye 1]

As written that's a nice theory. :lol: If it's true then it seems the fans just don't want stand alone films and tptb would do well to take notice and only do films which have everything to do with the respective series or the saga as a whole.

See that is my problem, these films(5, 9, & 10) seem like they are merely standalones but there are ties to other films and the series...well at least 9 & 10 do.

 

So are they really truly standalones? I guess that is up to each fan to decide. In NEM, Janeway brings up the "easy" assignments the Enterprise crew get: the Sona(ST INS) & the Borg(FC & the series) are amongst the ones mentioned. OK so that might not count as a major thing linking them...but still. The emotion chip...that carried over through(at least in some way) through all but apparently one of the TNG films and of course had mentions in the series. Riker & Troi's romance...that has mentions from day one of the series, got rekindled in INS & marriage in NEM.

 

Yes, those are little things...but still are continuations.

 

I mean maybe you are right, AE that the fans dont want standalones they want continuing sagas like they had on the small screen. But except for continuing stories on (I think, not sure since I only read synopsis of these at times) DS9 & VOY(maybe ENT??), TOS and TNG's episodes could be watched as short tv movies just about...except for TNG's two parters, they did not continue the same storyline each and every week(though there were little things here and there to tie the season or even the series together on some level---thus essentially standalone). DS9 & VOY had episodes where you had to watch a couple in a row, or even a whole season to know what was going on. Heck, I tried a second time to get into DS9 & VOY(before our area lost UPN..so it is pretty much hopeless to catch ENT unless I want to watch it at something like 1am), but the storyline had holes in it for me. It was a case of OK, so who are these people?, and why are they doing this?...only to read at ST.com and discover I needed to catch the earlier episodes of that season to know the story arc(thus VOY and DS9 are the continuing sagas). So it is a little hard for me to decide on whether or not the issue of standalone or continuation is the sole cause for the failure at the box office.

 

 

I hope my post does not get people all confused. ..if it does I am so sorry. It is a little difficult for me to put this all in words without getting people to look at it and go HUH?!

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

All Very Good Points Here.

 

Meh, I Enjoyed Them All Though.

 

'Course...This Is Just My Opinion, But I Think The 'Nemesis' Box Office Records Were Also Killed By 'The Two Towers'

Edited January 3, 2004 by Sam The Smuggler

[Yillara Skye 1]

'Course...This Is Just My Opinion, But I Think The 'Nemesis' Box Office Records Were Also  Killed By 'The Two Towers'

You do have a bit of a point there, also the film was shown in less theaters than a lot of the other top 10 films.

 

For example: Maid in Manhattan beat out Nemesis in their first weekends by appx $2million. But Nemesis was shown in appx 270 less theaters than Maid. Put the theater count to equal amounts, and Nemesis would have more than likely been the #1 film that weekend. True in the long run it was fighting the likes of "Harry Potter" and "LOTR... 2002 was a rather jam packed year as far as new films go.

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

also the film was shown in less theaters than a lot of the other top 10 films.

Yeah, It Never Even Came Here. I Had To Go Out Of Town, As I've Stated Before Somewhere.

 

As For'Insurrection', I Liked It. Wasn't Overly Bad Or Overyly Good. Just A Fun Movie To Watch.

 

And 'Final Frontier' Doesn't Bother Me Anywhere Near As Much As It Seems To Most Other People

[Ace 0]

Yeah, It Never Even Came Here.  I Had To Go Out Of Town, As I've Stated Before Somewhere.

Same here. My town has always carried the Trek films, but for Nemesis I had to drive to a theatre an hour away. I definitely thought that had something to do w/ the box-office numbers.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

'Course...This Is Just My Opinion, But I Think The 'Nemesis' Box Office Records Were Also  Killed By 'The Two Towers'

You do have a bit of a point there, also the film was shown in less theaters than a lot of the other top 10 films.

Also NEM might have had a fighting chance against the Big Boys it opened against if they had not chopped it up and had allowed it to be the more epic tale it was written to be.

And 'Final Frontier' Doesn't Bother Me Anywhere Near As Much As It Seems To Most Other People

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Yillara_Soong, I've seen every VOY episode. With the exception of two-parters, there's not an episode I can think of that you can't enjoy as a stand-alone story. Yes, VOY had story arcs, but you could basically walk in on any episode and enjoy the show without getting lost. So far, the only heavy arcs in Trek that'd require the viewing of pasts episodes, I'd feel are:

 

DS9 Seasons 5-7 (Dominion War arc)

ENT Season 3 (Xindi arc)

 

Sure, it helps to have background info for the newer series, but it's not neccessary to enjoy the show. Just thought I'd clear this up for you.

[Stelfan 0]

Good theory Cap., not that it would work on me since I enjoyed both Nemesis and Insurrection. I don't think Nemesis is that stand-alone though, since we have the Very wellknown Romulans in it, but I see your point.

[Yillara Skye 1]

Yillara_Soong, I've seen every VOY episode.  With the exception of two-parters, there's not an episode I can think of that you can't enjoy as a stand-alone story.  Yes, VOY had story arcs, but you could basically walk in on any episode and enjoy the show without getting lost.  So far, the only heavy arcs in Trek that'd require the viewing of pasts episodes, I'd feel are:

 

DS9 Seasons 5-7 (Dominion War arc)

ENT Season 3 (Xindi arc)

 

Sure, it helps to have background info for the newer series, but it's not neccessary to enjoy the show.  Just thought I'd clear this up for you.

Well, like I had mentioned in my post before...I was not entirely sure which of the later series it was.. I was pretty sure it was DS9, but ENT and VOY was a toss up.

 

I thank you for clearing up which I was trying to think of.

 

Again like, I posted before... I think it is an individual issue, deciding what counts as a standalone. VOY had the ongoing deal with the Borg, so to me that was a continuous story arc...albeit that the main reason for that was the growth of 7 or 9 as a character. I say it had an arc, you say it did not...So no big deal..to each their own, I guess.

 

Also NEM might have had a fighting chance against the Big Boys it opened against if they had not chopped it up and had allowed it to be the more epic tale it was written to be

Very true, if had been left at the nearly three hours...it could of made for one hell of an epic, whether it would have beaten out LOTR...not too sure of that, those films were excellent( I loved all three films of LOTR), however, it would have been an interesting competition.

 

Yeah, It Never Even Came Here. I Had To Go Out Of Town, As I've Stated Before Somewhere.

Same here, the theater was scheduled to have it here....but a few days prior I went there to confirm times. They had gotten everything for it, but the movie got removed off their list. I ended up travelling over 45minutes to see the film.

Edited January 3, 2004 by Yillara_Soong

[gul_nodrog 2]

Opening a week or a few days before LOTR: Two Towers was pretty silly. If I were tptb, I'd have saved Nemesis for January. By that time I'd seen Two Towers 4 times and was ready for something else. Although I saw Nemesis on opening night, I know there were other folks who were so busy with all the other movies opening during December that by the time they might have gone to see Nemesis it was already out of the theaters!

 

I have an additional theory about why the last two movies didn't do very well ... I think the fan base has become so fragmented and polarized because there are now five or six different factions of us.

 

1. TOS fans - my husband works with one of those. He's never seen an episode of TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT but he owns everything they ever put out about the original series.

 

2. TNG fans - typically also like TOS

 

3. DS9 fans - resent Voyager for coming along and stealing their thunder in a very competitive sci-fi market. Usually like TNG also. Hold our very little hope that they will ever see anything related to DS9 on the big screen. Thus they resent any inclusion of VOY in the movies.

 

4. VOY fans - resent any intimation that DS9 or TNG was the better show and thus hate everything related to DS9 and only tolerate things related to TNG in the hope that VOY will get a movie some day.

 

5. ENT fans - new guys who've never watched TNG/DS9/VOY and in some cases TOS. ENT fans may also like the other series, but not being an ENT fan, I could not speak to that.

 

6. Fans who'll watch anything TREK ... their numbers, I fear, are dwindling.

 

NOW BEFORE YOU GUYS JUMP MY CASE please realize that I am broadly generalizing these groups. I know that there are some of us who try to bridge the gap between each of the shows and find something to like in all of them, but I think that most of us fall within these categories, whether we want to admit it or not.

 

What do you guys think? Me, I think it would be impossible to come up with any movie that will please the entire fan base. I think it would be a lot smarter to do a DS9 miniseries on TNN. And a Voyager miniseries. SEPARATE please ... I'm really not into my food touching. There would be a lot more time to devote to each character, nothing would feel truncated or contrived ... everyone is happy. Personally, I'd rather see them do that than try to make another movie that flops. It's bad for the franchise.

[Mike 5]

Interesting theory CJLP, you may have something there. But, aren't all of them stand alone adventures with the exception of 2,3,4?

 

gul_nodrog, do you really think Star Trek nation is that fragmented? After reading your post my first reaction is to reject this idea right away. Then I start to think about myself and what series I really like the best. You see I've always felt that I like anything that has to do with Star Trek. And I do..But I do feel the strongest about TOS, DS9 and ENT..Doesn't mean that I don't like TNG and VOY..But honestly I can't remember the last TNG episode or movie I've watched. And I've seen very little of Voyager. I am going to buy the DVDs so my opinion might change but I think I will always like TOS and DS9 the best..So after all that..Are us Trek fans fragmented? Perhaps we are. We all have own own views and our own favorite series..I think we all know that there will never be a DS9 movie in the theatres so I'll take whatever Trek I can get and try to like it. And then pop in a DS9 or TOS DVD...

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Yillara_Soong, I've seen every VOY episode.  With the exception of two-parters, there's not an episode I can think of that you can't enjoy as a stand-alone story.  Yes, VOY had story arcs, but you could basically walk in on any episode and enjoy the show without getting lost.  So far, the only heavy arcs in Trek that'd require the viewing of pasts episodes, I'd feel are:

 

DS9 Seasons 5-7 (Dominion War arc)

ENT Season 3 (Xindi arc)

 

Sure, it helps to have background info for the newer series, but it's not neccessary to enjoy the show.  Just thought I'd clear this up for you.

Well, like I had mentioned in my post before...I was not entirely sure which of the later series it was.. I was pretty sure it was DS9, but ENT and VOY was a toss up.

 

I thank you for clearing up which I was trying to think of.

 

Again like, I posted before... I think it is an individual issue, deciding what counts as a standalone. VOY had the ongoing deal with the Borg, so to me that was a continuous story arc...albeit that the main reason for that was the growth of 7 or 9 as a character. I say it had an arc, you say it did not...So no big deal..to each their own, I guess.

You're correct, VOY did have story arcs, like with the Borg. However, what I loved about VOY is that you could watch any arc episode without needing background info.

 

Anywho, if you want a show were you can watch any episode, I'd recommend TOS, TNG, & VOY. If you want an arc-based show, then I'd recommend DS9 & ENT.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

gul_nodrog, do you really think Star Trek nation is that fragmented? After reading your post my first reaction is to reject this idea right away. Then I start to think about myself and what series I really like the best. You see I've always felt that I like anything that has to do with Star Trek. And I do..But I do feel the strongest about TOS, DS9 and ENT..Doesn't mean that I don't like TNG and VOY..But honestly I can't remember the last TNG episode or movie I've watched. And I've seen very little of Voyager. I am going to buy the DVDs so my opinion might change but I think I will always like TOS and DS9 the best..So after all that..Are us Trek fans fragmented? Perhaps we are. We all have own own views and our own favorite series..I think we all know that there will never be a DS9 movie in the theatres so I'll take whatever Trek I can get and try to like it. And then pop in a DS9 or TOS DVD...

Yes we are and it's a very sad thing for me to have to say.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Opening a week or a few days before LOTR: Two Towers was pretty silly.  If I were tptb, I'd have saved Nemesis for January.  By that time I'd seen Two Towers 4 times and was ready for something else.  Although I saw Nemesis on opening night, I know there were other folks who were so busy with all the other movies opening during December that by the time they might have gone to see Nemesis it was already out of the theaters!

 

I have an additional theory about why the last two movies didn't do very well ... I think the fan base has become so fragmented and polarized because there are now five or six different factions of us.

 

1.  TOS fans - my husband works with one of those.  He's never seen an episode of TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT but he owns everything they ever put out about the original series.

 

2.  TNG fans - typically also like TOS

 

3.  DS9 fans - resent Voyager for coming along and stealing their thunder in a very competitive sci-fi market.  Usually like TNG also.  Hold our very little hope that they will ever see anything related to DS9 on the big screen.  Thus they resent any inclusion of VOY in the movies.

 

4.  VOY fans - resent any intimation that DS9 or TNG was the better show and thus hate everything related to DS9 and only tolerate things related to TNG in the hope that VOY will get a movie some day.

 

5.  ENT fans - new guys who've never watched TNG/DS9/VOY and in some cases TOS.  ENT fans may also like the other series, but not being an ENT fan, I could not speak to that.

 

6.  Fans who'll watch anything TREK ... their numbers, I fear, are dwindling.

 

NOW BEFORE YOU GUYS JUMP MY CASE please realize that I am broadly generalizing these groups.  I know that there are some of us who try to bridge the gap between each of the shows and find something to like in all of them, but I think that most of us fall within these categories, whether we want to admit it or not.

 

What do you guys think?  Me, I think it would be impossible to come up with any movie that will please the entire fan base.  I think it would be a lot smarter to do a DS9 miniseries on TNN.  And a Voyager miniseries.  SEPARATE please ... I'm really not into my food touching.  There would be a lot more time to devote to each character, nothing would feel truncated or contrived ... everyone is happy.  Personally, I'd rather see them do that than try to make another movie that flops.  It's bad for the franchise.

You hit the nail on the head. I totally agree!

 

I would call myself a "franchise" fan. So far, I've enjoyed all 5 shows and all 10 movies. That doesn't mean I like it "just becuase" it's Trek, it means that I like everything "so far".

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

Yeah, Me Too. I've Liked Everything So Far Too.

 

One Of My Brother's Only Likes TOS & TNG. He Has Seen The Others, But Just Couldn't Get Into Them.

[tbree_dVelnahr 0]

I think what might have kept Star Trek V from being a runaway hit was the ending. We were built up for a moment, yet when we got around the corner, nothing was there. It was anti-climatic in the sense we felt unfulfilled at the end. They didn't find God, nor was there an adequate explanation for the failure. Nor did we learn just who or what that evil entity captured on the planet was. Too many loose ends to satisfy the audience. This had nothing to do with it being a so-called stand alone story. All of the original series' episodes were stand alone . This movie just lacked that powerful ending we have come to expect from Trek. But I still watch it and enjoy it for the great moments between characters. I'd give this film a three out of five stars. It isn't the greatest movie experience, but then again I've seen much worse out there! And it does have some wonderful moments.

 

T'Bree

[Red Shirt Volunteer 0]

I have to say I think it was the poor choice of actors to play villains for those 3 movies. Check out the database at startrek.com - they don't even have pics for some of these people! I did think Tom Hardy was good in "Nemesis," but he was unproven and a new character and so not exactly a big draw. Check out the names in the other movies:

 

TMP: Nobody, but it was the first one so it had nostalgia working for it.

II: Kirstie Alley, Ricardo Montalban.

III: Christopher Lloyd, Mark Lenard.

IV: Theory falls apart here. Well, the whale did some good work.

VI: Christopher Plummer, Kim Cattrall.

Generations: Macolm McDowell.

First Contact: Alfre Woodard, Alice Kriege, James Cromwell.

[edmcgon 0]

Red Shirt,

While I agree with your view that the villain makes the movie (in most cases), the villain also has to directly threaten the Enterprise. For example, Ricardo Montalban in II, Christopher Plummer in VI, and Alice Krieg in FC were good actors playing very dislikable characters (and I liked Tom Hardy in "Nemesis" also). But F. Murray Abraham, a great actor by most definitions, in "Insurrection" just did nothing for me, because the Enterprise was an afterthought for his character. I just never felt threatened by him.

 

It takes a truly great story to work without a villain: IV worked because it was a classic "fish out of water" story (pun intended), along the lines of a "Crocodile Dundee". "Star Trek I" did not work because it was lame.

[Red Shirt Volunteer 0]

Hi edmcgon,

 

I also wanted to say that TMP was just lame, but held back. And, yes, those 3 movies lacked any real threat threat to the crew. Although "Nemesis" seemed to contain one, the fact is that after "First Contact" I think it's impossible for a lot of fans (at least for me) to consider anything, species or natural phenomenon, a threat. After you defeat your arch-enemy, namely the Borg, what is there left to worry about? It's sad but I don't think I can feel any tension whatsoever in another TNG movie.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Hi edmcgon,

 

I also wanted to say that TMP was just lame, but held back.

I liked it.

 

And, yes, those 3 movies lacked any real threat threat  to the crew.

What about Sybok, Adhar Ru'afo, and Shinzon?

 

Although "Nemesis" seemed to contain one, the fact is that after "First Contact" I think it's impossible for a lot of fans (at least for me) to consider anything, species or natural phenomenon, a threat.

Why?

 

After you defeat your arch-enemy, namely the Borg, what is there left to worry about?

Um... It would be very arrogant to think no one can ever bring harm to them becuase they survived the Borg.

 

It's sad but I don't think I can feel any tension whatsoever in another TNG movie.

Why?

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

Very nice hypothesis....

You should write a paer on that....

lol

[Captain Bolivar 0]

I agree with most of what CJLP said (hi CJLP). Shinzon posed a VERY big threat to the Enterprise CREW! If their radiation weapon discharged the crew would have melted in SECONDS NO IF AND'S OR BUTS. Secondly, it isn't necessarilly about the danger to the entire crew. Shinzon threatened Picard's individuality and mental state to a severe degree. The events in that movie will change Picard far more than the events of Wolf 359 and his assimilation (IMO)

[stoned_vulcan 0]

thats just your opinion of why they bombed i loved nemesis personally.. and i felt that the reason some of the odd numbered movies were bad was because they were poorly acted...