Variant or Prototype

[trekzone 0]

the following is a transcript of an AIM convo i had with CJLP. Please comment on either side of the argument. (CJLP has agreed)

 

Braltar nirk: You're Austraillia-class ship

Braltar nirk: Is it a prototype?

trekzone2003: yep

Braltar nirk: How come it's NCC and not NX?

trekzone2003: where it say that?

Braltar nirk: Has it gone into production?  If so, then NX would usually be changed to NCC, meaning it's no longer experrimental.

trekzone2003: ah, mesh flaw

trekzone2003: no, its still being designed

Braltar nirk: Every Starfleet "Star Trek" prototype's registry number has begun with NX.

trekzone2003: its a support craft

trekzone2003: i know that

Braltar nirk: NX-01 Enterprise, NX-class

trekzone2003: i know

trekzone2003: that

trekzone2003: its a mesh flaw

Braltar nirk: U.S.S. Excelsior NX-2000, Excelsior-class

trekzone2003: and i didnt make the image

Braltar nirk: U.S.S. Defiant NX-74205, Defiant0class

Braltar nirk: Oh?

trekzone2003: I KNOW!

Braltar nirk: You didn't make the image?

trekzone2003: i didnt make the image, my friend did, its his mesh, he overlooked that

Braltar nirk: Ah

Braltar nirk: How many decks is the ship?

trekzone2003: 10 or 12

Braltar nirk: Those are mighty big shuttlebays then

Braltar nirk: From the size of the 2 shuttlebay doors on top, I would have thought the ship to be 5 or so decks thick.

trekzone2003: where are you looking?

Braltar nirk: TREKZONE.org : The Next Generation : Image

trekzone2003: TNG!

trekzone2003: oh,well - change that soon]

trekzone2003: my bad

trekzone2003: copy and paste

Braltar nirk: No, it's your Austrailia ship

trekzone2003: i knowe

trekzone2003: the page title

trekzone2003: TNG

trekzone2003: its not TNG

trekzone2003: its POS

trekzone2003: and it doesnt say POS

trekzone2003: i used the same page from TNG

trekzone2003: i have to change that

Braltar nirk: Also, if it's a 12-deck ship, how can it be a support-vessel?

trekzone2003: i know its the Aus-class

trekzone2003: its main purpose is to complement with shuttlecraft, peregin fighters and runabouts

trekzone2003: i think its 8 decks

Braltar nirk: Oh, so it's a carrier?

trekzone2003: crew comp of 50 or so, maybe 20 - Admiral Janeway's current ship

Braltar nirk: Support-ship would be like a shuttlecraft or runabout, 12 or so decks = full size ship.

Braltar nirk: Sounds like a carrier.

trekzone2003: no, not really : ENT-E has 28 decks - ENT-D has 42

Braltar nirk: 8 decks looks about right

Braltar nirk: Um, no

Braltar nirk: Ent-E has 24 decks

trekzone2003: close

Braltar nirk: Yes, ENT-D has 42 decks

trekzone2003: whateva

Braltar nirk: Hey, you're talking to a Trexpert

Braltar nirk: 

trekzone2003: so am i

trekzone2003: im a little less knowledgable tho

trekzone2003: but i can hold a covo

Braltar nirk: Personally, I picture Admiral Janeway taking command of a new prototype ship for explorration and heavy combat, developed from her only command - Voyager.

trekzone2003: convo*

Braltar nirk: "Discovery" would be fitting, since they made so many first-discoveries in the Delta Quadrant.

trekzone2003: ah - ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

Braltar nirk: If they do a VOY movie with a new ship, I'd rather see a new name, instead of Voyager-A.

trekzone2003: you dont know about the rest of the season

trekzone2003: Admiral Janeway will be making many a cameo

Braltar nirk: If they do do a Voyager-A, there better be a good reason.  Maybe they want to have both an Enterprise and a Voyager?  lol

trekzone2003: Admiral Janeway will have command of a new - new craft

Braltar nirk: Austraillia?

trekzone2003: Australia!

Braltar nirk: he he

trekzone2003: wait, gotta find the specs

trekzone2003: nope, she gets the U.S.S. Redux

trekzone2003: and then the U.S.S. Murray

trekzone2003: then the Melbourne

trekzone2003: then the Atlantic

trekzone2003: then the Persian

Braltar nirk: WHy does she keep getting transferred?

trekzone2003: experiments gone wrong

trekzone2003: 40 new prototypes

trekzone2003: she is the "captain" of each of these

Braltar nirk: If she lost that many ships, she'd end up being court martialed.

trekzone2003: as the head of the Starfleet Security committee

trekzone2003: she doesnt "loos" them

trekzone2003: they dont work

Braltar nirk: I thought Janeway worked for Starfleet Command?

trekzone2003: she does

trekzone2003: she has been re-assigned for the duration of this experiments

Braltar nirk: OIC\

trekzone2003: actually according to my records

trekzone2003: she has the U.S.S. Prototype, A, B,C,D,E,F

trekzone2003: then the U.S.S. Redux

trekzone2003: Read this, your royal knowledgness

Braltar nirk: Why does the Prototype get rebuilt over and over?

Braltar nirk: What famous thing did it do to get renamed over and over?

Braltar nirk: I mean, rebuilt

trekzone2003: it was the Prototype for all the vessels

trekzone2003: ease and common sense

trekzone2003: and for Starfleet records

Braltar nirk: You can't have one ship be the prototype for multiple classes

Braltar nirk: Each class has to have it's own prototype.,

trekzone2003: you can

Braltar nirk: Nope.

trekzone2003: here you can

Braltar nirk: Prototype = 1st ship of the class.

trekzone2003: http://www.trekzone.org/pos/aboutpos.htm

trekzone2003: http://www.trekzone.org/pos/aboutpos.htm

trekzone2003: http://www.trekzone.org/pos/aboutpos.htm

trekzone2003: http://www.trekzone.org/pos/aboutpos.htm

trekzone2003: read that

trekzone2003: it explains some thing

trekzone2003: s

trekzone2003: brb

Braltar nirk: There's no air in space, so why is "wind sheet" a factor?

Braltar nirk: I read.

Braltar nirk: It doesn't say a thing about a "prototype for multiple designes".

trekzone2003: sheer

trekzone2003: god, your bloody persistent

Braltar nirk: Prototype, by deffinition, means the first of a design.  Each time you have a "new class" of ship, you have a new prototype.  For example, the Defiant can't be the Voyager prototype becuase they're two different classes of ship.

Braltar nirk: Wait

Braltar nirk: Let me finish

trekzone2003: flaw: the DEFIANT cant be the VOYAGER prototype because of the name

trekzone2003: the PROTOTYPE can be a multiple prototype because of the GENERIC name

Braltar nirk: You can have a prototype "test-bed" ship for new technologies, but when it comes to class of ship, each class has it's own prototype.

trekzone2003: "the solar wind and usual debris common in space would bounce off and not affect the ship"

Braltar nirk: Example, Defiant-class's prototype is the Defiant.  Voyager is an Intrepid-class ship, so it's prototype would be the Intrepid, and so on.

trekzone2003: yes, but the PROTOTYPE

Braltar nirk: Still, space is a vacuum.  You're ship could be a flying box, like the Borg Cube, and it'd fly just as easilly.

Braltar nirk: I don't think you grasp what prototype means.

trekzone2003: did you read, or judge?

Braltar nirk: I read

Braltar nirk: It doesn't say anything about an all0design prototype.

trekzone2003: i understand

Braltar nirk: ANswer me this.

trekzone2003: the main focus is the POS

trekzone2003: what?

Braltar nirk: It's U.S.S. Prototype NX-something

Braltar nirk: Right?

trekzone2003: yes

Braltar nirk: So, wouldn't that become the "Prototype-class"?

trekzone2003: NX-92600

trekzone2003: no

Braltar nirk: o.O

trekzone2003: because its not official

trekzone2003: it is a covert operation

Braltar nirk: OIC

trekzone2003: everything will be quelled on the 05/04.12.03

Braltar nirk: So, it's a one-of-a-kind ship?

trekzone2003: there all one of a kind ships

trekzone2003: there will never be anymore because of the design flaws with the U.S.S. Prototype

Braltar nirk: So, then the Prototype never goes into production?

trekzone2003: no

trekzone2003: the 40 different classes never leave the SOL system

trekzone2003: too unstable

Braltar nirk: So, 40 prototypes?

Braltar nirk: 

trekzone2003: like having your parent help you (as a baby) into the swimming pool

Braltar nirk: That's a boatload of experrimental ships

trekzone2003: there was a tug next to each ship on their launch, Ad. Janeway tested the first 20 herself, Commander John Evans tested the last 19 with Commander Miller testing the POseidon

Braltar nirk: Wait, the Poseidon is Akira-class, not a prototype, right?

Braltar nirk: Just making sure

trekzone2003: the Poseidon went through three diferent prototypes

trekzone2003: the Poseidon is Akira-Class variant

Braltar nirk: If it's Akira-class, it's not a prototype.

trekzone2003: it is a variant of the AKira

trekzone2003: which makes it a prototype

Braltar nirk: Nope.

trekzone2003: it does

Braltar nirk: It's still the same design, just modifications.

trekzone2003: its a prototype of the variant

Braltar nirk: In order for it to be a prototype, it'd have to be the "first" of it's design.

trekzone2003: major modifications, dude

trekzone2003: it is

Braltar nirk: If it looks a modified Akira, it's still an Akira.

trekzone2003: "The U.S.S. Poseidon is officially classified as a escort-class starship, unofficially it is a Long Range Armored Tactical & Science interceptor. With over 10 phaser arcs, 5 photon torpedo launchers, 2 Quantum Torpedo launchers and a Pulse Phaser Canon on the saucer alone, it is the most heavily armored starship in the entire Starfleet."

trekzone2003: it has the same "basic" elements, but everything else is different

Braltar nirk: I look at the pics of your Posieden, I see an Akira-class ship.  It doesn't look like a new design to me.

trekzone2003: the new Poseidon is coming soon

trekzone2003: dont judge the pics

Braltar nirk: I thought the pics "are" the ship.

trekzone2003: they are, but i need modifications

Braltar nirk: Also, it can't be a "varriant" of an existing design and be a prototype.  In order for it to be a prototype, it'd have to be a new design, not a varriant.

Braltar nirk: Making modifications doesn't make something new.

trekzone2003: calling it a prototype of the variant

trekzone2003: is correct

trekzone2003: what would you call it?

Braltar nirk: 4 : a first full-scale and usually functional form of a new type or design of a construction (as an airplane)

trekzone2003: it is a new design

trekzone2003: the basic principles are the same

Braltar nirk: Varriants don't have prototypes becuase varriants are usually "unique" and don't go into production.

trekzone2003: but its a variant of the design

trekzone2003: what would you call it?

Braltar nirk: If varriants go into production, they are no longer varriants, but rather an "upgrad" of the existing design.

Braltar nirk: Make sense?

trekzone2003: WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT

Braltar nirk: I'm about to explain

trekzone2003: opk, lets go

trekzone2003: ill br b

Braltar nirk: You say Posiedon is Akira-class varriant.  All this means is that it's an Akira-class ship with special modifications unique to this one ship.  If all Akira-class ships were of this varriant, then it would simply be considerred an "upgrade" for the Akira-class.  If the ship is a prototype, it can't be Akira-class, but something new.

Braltar nirk: You're right in calling it a varriant, but you can make all the changes you want, and it will still be Akira-class.  You'd have to design something new to have a prototype.

trekzone2003: so what do you call the NX-92620 , a, b and c then hmm?

trekzone2003: can i copy and paste this to a thread on STF?

Braltar nirk: Sure!

trekzone2003: thanx

Braltar nirk: If the Posiedon is AKira-class, it can't have a "NX" registry number.  Well, it can if it's experrimental, but as long as it's Akira-class, its not a prototype.

 

 

To fully understand the complaint, here a couple of links

About The Poseidon

Synopsis page, link to images

 

comments, queries, questions

 

BTW: am i right?

Next On Poseidon

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Thanks a long post.

[trekzone 0]

to sum up:

 

can you have a prototype variant - or just a prototype?

[Abakai2003 0]

The X in NX stands for experimental so if the vessel is an experiment then it get the NX reg no matter the space frame

 

BTW the links in the post produce 404's

[trekzone 0]

The X in NX stands for experimental so if the vessel is an experiment then it get the NX reg no matter the space frame

 

BTW the links in the post produce 404's

they should do..a.ll the ones to TREKZONE.org work - to me

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

NX-01 Enterprise NX-class

U.S.S. Excelsior NX-2000 Excelsior-class

U.S.S. Defiant NX-74205 Defiant-class

 

If it's a new design, it's a prototype. If it's a varriant, it's a modification to an existing design. However, a "varriant" can be designated as it's own class if it's different enough from the existing design. Also "NX" designates prototypes and experrimental ships.

[TheDoctor 0]

Whats this about an Australia class?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Whats this about an Australia class?

It's a fan-fiction ship.

[trekzone 0]

i think we figured it out, CJLP!!!

 

it is an AKira-class ship, however if it goes into mass production, it would become a new ship.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

i think we figured it out, CJLP!!!

 

it is an AKira-class ship, however if it goes into mass production, it would become a new ship.

Yes, but only if the "varriant" varries enough from the Akira-class can it be a new class.

[TheDoctor 0]

Whats this about an Australia class?

It's a fan-fiction ship.

Oh yeah. Australia class. If I had my own ship it would be called the USS Tasman. :blink:

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I'd have an "Einstein-class" which would take the Galaxy-class saucer, neck, engineering section, and dual nacelles, but with a new look on a large scale.

[prometheus 0]

Thor class. Heavy cruiser with thick shielding and multiple phaser arrays/torpedo launchers. High warp capability. Would be short and wide. Short warp nacelles low, tucked under the ship. The bridge would be at the centre of the ship and the warp core at the rear in a detachable aft section. A lot like the Steam Runner class, only sleeker lines.

 

I think that the whole 'bridge on top', 'nacelles held on with skinny struts' thing was always impractical, especially in warfare. Having your captain raised at the top of the ship: crazy!

[Captain Bolivar 0]

POINT 1: Ok, I agree that the Prototype is the 1st ship in it's class just as you said CJLP. But because The U.S.S Prototype A is different than the U.S.S. Prototype B they themselves can be different classes. Just as the U.S.S. Enteprise A was a different class that the U.S.S. Enterprise B. So I agree in part with Trekzone and in part with CJLP.

 

POINT 2: Furthermore, as CJLP suggested, if Poseidon is in fact Akira-class, it can't have a "NX" registry number. This is because NX-class ships are experimental ships and Akira class ships are not. It may be a variant, but that doesn't make it an NX-class vessel. For example, if you add a third nacell to the Enterprise D it becomes a variant of the galaxy class ship. But you would NOT see NX on the hull. You would see NCC. So, in favor of CJLP, Poseidon should not have NX on the hull. This of course, is just a triviality, and we should not worry about it. Story is what counts.

 

POINT 3: Trekzone, you said that Poseidon is a prototype of a variant. This is true. Captain, you said that the Poseidon is an upgrade for the Akira-class. This is true too. Now I shall tie the two together! You see, when you "upgrade" a ship it becomes a "variant". But before you can begin full scale production of a variant you need to test it first. To do this you would build a "prototype of the variant vessel". So you are both right to an extent. The thing is however, that Starfleet would not call the ship a "prototype". They would merely just call it the same class name it always had: Akira.

 

P.S. I have a feeling that you will argue with my supporting Trekzone's statement that a variant can be a prototype. Well here is your proof: According to dictionary.com the word prototype has 4 definitions including this, "An original, full-scale, and usually working model of a new product or new version of an existing product." As you can see protoypes include new versions of existing products, or in other words, new variants on existing models.

 

Now, as you've noticed I have not taken sides on this. I have agreed with points on both sides.

 

Take care, both of you.