Did "First Contact" alter the timeline?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Some people said that First Contact alterred the timeline, some say ENT is in this "alterred" timeline. Sure, there may be subtle differences like Cochran knowing about the Enterprise from the future, Lilly seeing the Borg, the ENT episode "Regeneration" and so forth...

 

Howevre, if this is indeed an alterred timeline to the point where there are vast differences, then how come the Enterprise-E returned to the future to find everything intact? How come DS9 seasons 5-7 and VOY seasons 3-7 were not changed? Thinks also seemed fine in the last 2 movies. So, why do people claim it's an alterred timeline? You can't change the timeline "so the NX-class and the ENT events can happen" and the future remain the same. The changes would be so fast that the future would be unravelled into something completely different.

 

What's your view on this?

[Jack_Bauer 1]

Nothing changed because things were supposed to happen that way. Its a pre destination paradox. the Enterprise-E was alwas meant to go back in order to ensure the existence of the Federation and Cochrane was always supposed to know about the Borg (it is rumoured that this is what split the mirror universe from our own, in the mirror universe Cochrane tells the Vulcans about the Borg and they become a militaristic empire). So in a way our universe created the mirror universe. Man, my head hurts.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Perhaps. However, something had to create that pre-destination paradox. Originally, First Contact had to happen differently without Borg interferrance. Then the Borg go back in time. Events prior to First Contact are different, but once Vulcans arrive on Earth, things happen as they should with the exception of the NX-01 Enterprise's run-in with the Borg.

[B4_ 0]

That's a very hard question to answer.A lot of fans say yes,and begin pointing out different things that weren't supposed to happen,such as mankind's first contact with Klingons,the appearance of the Borg and Ferengi pre-TNG,etc.

But I say no.We've never had hard proof that humans didn't meet Klingons earlier than the date given in the Star Trek Encyclopedia (which was just conjecture,I believe on Michael Okuda's behalf).And many of the other perceived continuity errors and historical revisions can likewise be explained away.For instance,on the episode "acquisition",nobody knows that it is Ferengi who have boarded Enterprise.Nobody knew about the Borg in "Regeneration".A good storyteller,and I believe Enterprise has them,can weave a great many wonderful tales from all of the loose ends from The Original Series and the other series'.

The events of First Contact were always meant to happen.Geordi LaForge and William Riker were always the men who accompanied Zefram Cochrane on his first warp flight (lucky bastards).Its paradox.Don't think about it too much.It will only result in a headache.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

The events of First Contact were always meant to happen.Geordi LaForge and William Riker were always the men who accompanied Zefram Cochrane on his first warp flight (lucky bastards).Its paradox.Don't think about it too much.It will only result in a headache.

I disagree. I saw history was slightly alterred. :lol: However, not enough to effect the existing shows and movies.

 

Also, there's no mention of a pre-Federation Enterprise. In previous shows and movies. Maybe one of the slight changes is that the NX-01 originally had a different name, then due to First Contact, Cochrane honors "the people from the future" by naming the NX-01 Enterprise after their ship?

[mr_tinkles 0]

The fact that no one mentioned a pre-Federation Enterprise doesn't mean anything.And Zefram Cochrane isn't even around in the time of Enterprise (well,he is,but he won't be seen again until TOS).

Edited November 5, 2003 by mr_tinkles

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

The fact that no one mentioned a pre-Federation Enterprise doesn't mean anything.And Zefram Cochrane isn't even around in the time of Enterprise (well,he is,but he won't be seen again until TOS).

Well, you're right, I forgot he had left for "parts unkown". Maybe he requests that the first warp 5 capable ship be called Enterprise?

[first_redneck_in_space 0]

I don't know.Would a fella who was embarrassed and disgusted that somebody erected a statue in his honor want a ship named after him?I kinda doubt it.

Besides,I'm pretty sure Cochrane left Earth/Alpha Centauri decades before the Warp-5 Program got underway.First contact is about as far removed from Enterprise,as Enterprise is from TOS,timewise.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I don't know.Would a fella who was embarrassed and disgusted that somebody erected a statue in his honor want a ship named after him?I kinda doubt it.

Besides,I'm pretty sure Cochrane left Earth/Alpha Centauri decades before the Warp-5 Program got underway.First contact is about as far removed from Enterprise,as Enterprise is from TOS,timewise.

Didn't Cochrane work wirh Henry Archer? :lol:

[Captain Bolivar 0]

I agree that Enterprise might be named so due to Cochrane. But because we never heard this Enterprise before in other Star Treks doesn't mean its a new timeline. B & B wanted to call the show Enterprise and have the ship called Enterprise, so B & B ignored the fact that no other Enterprise was ever mentioned in Trek. So I tend not to look at that as a reason why the timeline might be altered. In fact I have a theory that the time line is the way it always has been. Let me explain.

 

Q introduced Picard to the Borg in a distant area of space in "Q Who". The Enterprise D caught the attention of the Borg in that episode, but that does not explain why the Borg came to Earth in "Best of Both Worlds" to assimilate it so soon. The Borg had plenty of other closer planets in Borg space to assimilate and dominate. The Federation wouldn't have been of much concern.

 

I believe it was the interplexing beacon sent during the episode "Regeneration" that promped the Earth and Wolf 351 attack in "Best of Both Worlds". It would take a long time for that message to reach Borg space (about 60 years). Once it did reach Borg space, the Borg may not have had the 6 Hubs, thus the Borg had to travel in a more conventional way to Earth (about another 60 years). They finally arrived to engage Starfleet and Earth in "Best of Both Worlds" as a response to the message sent by the few Borg drones in "Regeneration" which was a consequence of "First Contact"

 

What I'm describing is a paradox. The Borg travel to Earth's past in "First Contact" to assimilate Earth because their first attempt in "Best of Both Worlds" failed. But that first attempt in "Best of Both Worlds" was caused by the Borg transmission of a message to the Delta Quadrant in "Regeneration" which was a direct consequence of "First Contact".

 

This time paradox is known as circular causation. Read about what circular causation is and what other time travel theories are at this page.

Circular causation is listed as theory A on the page.

 

This seems to be a very good site dealing with time travel. So check out its home page by clicking here.

[Captain Ericks 0]

I always had a question about the Enterprise. In the DS9 episode where the Defiant goes back in time to the era of the TOS, Sisko specifically said that the saw the first Enterprise. But if the timeline was changed, then his statement would be explained.

 

And Archer said that it would take some 200 years for the beacon to reach the Delta quadrent, delaying the attack until the 24th century.

 

But it is I think a pre-destination paradox. The Borg went back in time, essentially to make up for a failed invasion. The Borg then tried to send a tranmission to the borg living in that century, which failed. Their second attempt to contact the collective was succesful, but was delayed by two hundred years, which eventually caused the original invasion on Earth. Oiy Ve!

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Commander Bolivar, I disagree, I don't think there's a paradox.

 

The way I see it, a Borg cube is a few years from the Federation. Q sends the Enterprise-D out there, to show humanity what they aren't ready for. This allows Starfleet to prepare for the Borg invasion in "The Best of Both Worlds". The 2nd Borg invasion happens in First Contact, where the Borg attempt to alter the past to assimilate the future. The Enterprise stops them, however, Borg debris and a few drones survive the explossion and fall to Earth. These surviving Borg are thawed out a century later, in 2153, and assimilate a cargo ship. NX-01 Enterprise stops them, but not before the Borg transmit Earth's coordinates, which would take about 200 years to reach Borg space.

 

With this all said, this is what I think happens:

 

Timeline A - Borg come to the Alpha Quadrant, looking for civilizations to assimilate. We have 2 invasion attemps by the Borg, the 2nd leading to Earth's history.

 

Timeline B - We have a Borg sphere and the Enterprise-E "appearing" from the future. First Contact is almost prevented by the Borg, but the Enterprise crew repairs history. A century later, some surviving Borg assimilate some scientists and their transport. They are stopped by the NX-01, but not before transmitting Earth's coordinates to the Borg. 200 years later, the Borg come to the Alpha Quadrant, seeking humanity based on a message from Borg 200 years ago, with Earth's coordinates.

 

In conclussion, I say the timeline was damaged, but only with the "First Contact" event, the ENT episode "Regeneration", and the Borg's original interrest in Humanity.

 

You could say the timeline was slightly changed, but not enough to effect the shows nor movies, or you could call it a predestined paradox. Personally, I say the timeline was alterred.

 

Actually, every time you enter the past, by just "being there", you're alterring the timeline. Something to think about, eh?

[Captain Bolivar 0]

In regards to your post Commander Ericks:

 

You are right, Archer did say it would take 200 years. I was just estimating the speed of subspace transmissions. I guess they do not travel at the equivalent of "high warp". Must be more like warp 3 or something. Thanks for pointing that out. That validates my theory a little more. Also, I think your also right in that Sisko said that was the first Enterprise, but you must remember that the writers who wrote that never could have known that "Enterprise" would be the fifth series. Personally, I don't like to over analyse these kind of glitches in the Star Trek timeline. Thats not to say that I don't like to analyse to the extreme though. My previous post in this topic would be evidence of that.

 

In regards to your post CJLP:

 

What your describing is, from how I understand temporal mechanics, no different than my theory. You said that timeline A created a new timeline (Timeline B ) which provokes timeline A once again via the subspace message sent from the transport in Archer's time. Timeline A again leads back to timeline B. B then leads to timeline A etc. Since each timeline can't exist without the other because each create the other, they must be part of a circular causality. I think you've simply understood my theory in terms of components: a timeline A and B. So basically, all I'm saying is that I agree with you even though you disagree with me. Now that is a paradox. Oh, and please don't take offense if I'm being argumentative, I mean no harm by it.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Commander Bolivar

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

The way I see it, Timeline A leads to Timeline B. How does Timeline B lead to Timeline A?

[Captain Ericks 0]

[glow=blue] 

In regards to your post Commander Ericks:

 

Also, I think your also right in that Sisko said that was the first Enterprise, but you must remember that the writers who wrote that never could have known that "Enterprise" would be the fifth series.

I reallize that. But it just bothered me. It was more with why the fifth series was called Enterprise. It doesn't bother that much, and this just scritches the bothersome itch I have had.

[Captain Ericks 0]

The way I see it, Timeline A leads to Timeline B.  How does Timeline B lead to Timeline A?

If there is a paradox, and the borg were meant to go into the past, then the Borg wouldn't come to the Alpha quadrant in the first place. However because they recieved the subspace transmission, the collective decided that humanity would be the first target in the alpha quadrent.

 

I think that's right.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I disagree. I don't believe "Regeneration" was the original reason for the Borg to be interrested in Earth. The past has to happen before the future, and you can't have people in the past, from the future, before the future happens.

 

So, with this said:

 

Timeline A - Borg are currious about humanity due to the Hansens being assimilated and Q flinging the Enterprise into the path of a cube.

 

Timeline B - Borg recieve Earth's coordinates and investigate.

[Captain Bolivar 0]

I disagree.  I don't believe "Regeneration" was the original reason for the Borg to be interrested in Earth.  The past has to happen before the future, and you can't have people in the past, from the future, before the future happens.

 

So, with this said:

 

Timeline A - Borg are currious about humanity due to the Hansens being assimilated and Q flinging the Enterprise into the path of a cube.

 

Timeline B - Borg recieve Earth's coordinates and investigate.

CJLP:

Your right, it doesn't seem intuitive. But this is the most popular theory on time travel. It prevents the who idea of killing your mom before she gives birth to you. Technically, according to this theory, my theory holds possible. Maybe it isn't what B & B intended. Your hypothesis could be the correct one. It depends on which theory of time travel is correct. Likely, neither could happen in real life. But, like most scientists, I prefer to go with what seems more probable. To me, circular causality makes the most sense, and the least at the same time. Hard for me to explain that. But thats how I feel. Ughh, time travel is a tough topic that could be debated until the end of time itself.

 

Here is my question about your "timeline A timeline B" idea:

 

If timeline A creates timeline B which erases timeline A in favour of timeline B. Then how did timeline B come to exist if timeline A doesn't exist?

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

To answer your question, it'd be more like Timeline A "morphing" into Timeline B for lack of a better word. Those in the past making the changes to the timeline are uneffected as they aren't in the "changing future".

 

So, you could go back and keep your parents from ever meeting, then return to the present only to discover that no one knows who you are, and from the world's perspective, you never existed. How to fix this? Simple, go back in time and stop yourself from preventing your parents from meeting. Then we have a problem. There's two of you!

[Captain Ericks 0]

To answer your question, it'd be more like Timeline A "morphing" into Timeline B for lack of a better word.  Those in the past making the changes to the timeline are uneffected as they aren't in the "changing future".

 

So, you could go back and keep your parents from ever meeting, then return to the present only to discover that no one knows who you are, and from the world's perspective, you never existed.  How to fix this?  Simple, go back in time and stop yourself from preventing your parents from meeting.  Then we have a problem.  There's two of you!

But if that prevented you from being born, then wouldn't you have ceased to exist the second your parents relationship was prevented? But then if you were the one to prevent your parents form meeting and you didn't exist, then wouldn't you have been born anyway? I was thinking about that; that it's impossible to go back in time and kill your younger self. I don't know if that's true, but it actually make's sense.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Commander Ericks

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

To answer your question, it'd be more like Timeline A "morphing" into Timeline B for lack of a better word.  Those in the past making the changes to the timeline are uneffected as they aren't in the "changing future".

 

So, you could go back and keep your parents from ever meeting, then return to the present only to discover that no one knows who you are, and from the world's perspective, you never existed.  How to fix this?  Simple, go back in time and stop yourself from preventing your parents from meeting.  Then we have a problem.  There's two of you!

But if that prevented you from being born, then wouldn't you have ceased to exist the second your parents relationship was prevented?

Why would you just poof out of existance? Say you split up your parents in the past. Why would you go, "Oh no! AAAHHH!" and go poof? I see no logical reason for this to happen.

 

But then if you were the one to prevent your parents form meeting and you didn't exist, then wouldn't you have been born anyway?

You would prevent your parents from meeting, so from history's point of view, you never existed, so why do you still exist? Simple, you were no longer a component of the future when the future changed. By being in the past, you were protected by changes to the future. While you didn't exist, you still do in the past as a time traveler. You still with me? It would be like crossing to a reallity where you never existed, only you're in the same reallity, except time is alterred.

 

I was thinking about that; that it's impossible to go back in time and kill your younger self. I don't know if that's true, but it actually make's sense.

 

In theory, you could travel back 1 year, kill yourself, then return to the present, and scare the heck out of everyone, becuase they all think you're dead, which you are, from their perspective. Go back a year, stop yourself from killing yourself, then travel with your other time travelling self and wind up with two of you!

[Captain Bolivar 0]

Yes that is the whole theory behind circular causality. You cannot alter the past in such as way that disallows you to alter it. Thus, you cannto kill your parents before you are born. You could go into the past, but his could NEVER be accomplished. Anything you do in the past MUST lead to the exact same timeline from which you came from; therefore, you have always been a part of the past. If you attempted to kill your past self, something would prevent you from doing so. Under this theory, timelines cannot change. And when applying my theory with the Borg, the timeline doesn't. It has always been a part of history that the Borg were on Earth during first contact.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Well, it all boils down this this, I believe:

 

You believe in pre-destined paradoxes.

I believe in alternate timelines, to be specific, changing the timeline.

 

I believe that in order to have a pre-destined paradox, you have to do the following:

 

Timeline A creates Timeline B which leads to Timeline C, in turn, cuasing Timeline B which leads to Timeline C, and so forth. There has to be an original timeline to "create" the cusallity loop. Would you agree here?

[TJ Phaserman 2]

im lost

[Captain Ericks 0]

Simple, you were no longer a component of the future when the future changed.  By being in the past, you were protected by changes to the future.  While you didn't exist, you still do in the past as a time traveler.  It would be like crossing to a reallity where you never existed, only you're in the same reallity, except time is alterred.

 

You still with me?

HELL NO!!!

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Simple, you were no longer a component of the future when the future changed.  By being in the past, you were protected by changes to the future.  While you didn't exist, you still do in the past as a time traveler.  It would be like crossing to a reallity where you never existed, only you're in the same reallity, except time is alterred.

 

You still with me?

HELL NO!!!

Here's an order of events to illustrate my post so that you may understand.

 

2003 - You travel back to 1951.

1951 - You prevent your parents, or grandparents, from ever meeting.

2003 - You return to the future to see how things turned out. You have no home, car, family, nothing. No one believes you exist. Your credit cards don't work, it's like you don't exist. "Why am I still here then?" you ask. Simple. Becuase you were in the past, making the changes, you were not "erased" when the future changed. Had you been in present while someone else changed history, then you would be fully erased. Deciding you don't like this, you travel back to 1951.

1951 - You stop your time travelling self, who just arrived from 2003 the first time, from splitting up your parents. Not knowing what to do next, you both return to 2003.

2003 - You both return to the present... except for one little problem. There is now two of you. One from a timeline where you changed history, then changed it back, and a second you who was prevented from changing the history by a future version of you, the original you.

 

See, I don't believe in temporal paradoxes, while they can happen, something has to trigger the event. It couldn't "have allways been that way" becuase the past has to come before the future, and you can't have people from the future in the past before the future.

[Captain Ericks 0]

Yeah, I'm with ya' up to the 'two of you' part. The rest I suppose would have to be explained in Star Trek techno-jargon, which wouldn't help me in the long run too much.

 

Oh well.

[Captain Ericks 0]

Wait! no!

 

There was a Voyager episode where three temporal events in the timeline effected each other and were caused by each other in a continuous pattern. It was the Episode were we first meet captain Braxtan and they're transported back to 20th century Earth. I don't remember the exact sequence of events but I think it was something like this.

 

A. An explosion in the 29th century, at which a piece of Voyager's hull is found.

B.Cpt. Braxtain tries unsuccesfully to push Voyager out of the timeline (I'm pretty sure that's not how it went, but humor me), and Braxtain's ship os sent in to a vortex of some sort, which Voyager is brought into aswell (ditto)

C. The Braxtain's ship crashes on Earth, and is found by a computer expert who uses it to upgrade Earth communication system (Internet, cell phone, etc.), and when he attempts to go to the future and brings back more technology, however a problem ensues and the Timeship going to the 29th century causes an explosion and starts in all over again.

 

I'll have to check this somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that this should be true.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Wait! no!

 

There was a Voyager episode where three temporal events in the timeline effected each other and were caused by each other in a continuous pattern. It was the Episode were we first meet captain Braxtan and they're transported back to 20th century Earth. I don't remember the exact sequence of events but I think it was something like this.

 

A. An explosion in the 29th century, at which a piece of Voyager's hull is found.

B.Cpt. Braxtain tries unsuccesfully to push Voyager out of the timeline (I'm pretty sure that's not how it went, but humor me), and Braxtain's ship os sent in to a vortex of some sort, which Voyager is brought into aswell (ditto)

C. The Braxtain's ship crashes on Earth, and is found by a computer expert who uses it to upgrade Earth communication system (Internet, cell phone, etc.), and when he attempts to go to the future and brings back more technology, however a problem ensues and the Timeship going to the 29th century causes an explosion and starts in all over again.

 

I'll have to check this somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that this should be true.

Yes, and this episode was wrong.

 

Yes, there's a causallity loop, but the very fact that Janeway was able to stop it, means, that someone had to create it. Originally, something destroys the solar system, Braxton finds Voyager debris, who knows how it got there, he goes back in time, we have the A, B, C timeloop, then back to A, B, and when C comes arround... Janeway breaks the loop. Who knows how long it took her to break it though, as that loop could'a played hundreds of times! :blink:

[prometheus 0]

According to Star Trek Monthly (UK) November 2002, this question was raised. I think the answer there was that yes, the timeline WAS altered but it had never been reconciled with Enterprise. In the end, the conclusion was simply that the time line was altered, but everything that flowed after the alteration was exactly the same as before. Altered! But exactly the same to the human eye.