Barter Economy

[master_q 0]

Barter Economy

 

 

Do you think a Barter economy will become reality in the future?

 

For my self personally I don’t see it happening that easy. Companies, businesses, entrepreneurs, and regular people giving money up . . . . I don’t completely know why Gene Roddenberry wants this kind of economy.

 

I think the negatives would be supplying wants & needs. If we look at economics & the general study of it . . . .would not a barter economy hinder the exchange of good & services because the products some people have to offer are not always acceptable or easy to divide for payment? Would not people slack off?

 

A barter system to me does not have many advantages.

 

People say (and it is true) “Money is the root of all evil,” but that’s the result from supplying all of those “wants”. It is not the money the person is really seeking, but the trade of that money to an object. The wanting of more and more things really would not change if we had a Barter system. (So we would still have a form of greed / We would still have crime to accumulate more and more things / And so on)

 

What do you think?

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[Admiral Kirk 1]

I've had the same thoughts. When the 23rd/24th century characters explain about their economy I find it perplexing. I understand the concept of no physical money. I see credit cards and checks used every day but the complete absence of a supply and demand economy? The way things are right now I doubt we'll be giving up money and our need for things any time soon. A while back I had the idea that earth in the Star trek universe practices an advanced form of socialism.

[Klingonmike 0]

We need to do something about the economy,since Bush became president the economy has been going down the toilet and unemployment has gone up to levels not seen in 9 years! (They just recently mentioned that on CBS.)

I sure do miss Bill Clinton!!! :o

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

People say (and it is true) “Money is the root of all evil,” but that’s the result from supplying all of those “wants”.

That's inaccurate. It's actually:

"The love of money is the root of all evil."

 

 

We need to do something about the economy,since Bush became president the economy has been going down the toilet and unemployment has gone up to levels not seen in 9 years! (They just recently mentioned that on CBS.)

I sure do miss Bill Clinton!!! :o

 

Hmm... Interresting. You are aware that the economy is not as bad as people say, aren't you? Instead of believing CBS blindly, I suggest you do your own homework and research this issue for yourself. Sure, the economy's gone down some, but not as badly as people portray it, and President Bush is not the only factor on this. Also, you are aware that Bill Clinton is responsible for most our country's problems, right? How can you miss a man who sold military secrets to China, cheated on his wife, tried to mothboll the military, and so forth?

[Klingonmike 0]

When Bill was the president the economy was great and unemployment was at an all time low.the country was doing great! it seems 2 years after Bush is in the country is not doing well at all. So what he cheated on his wife,just about every great president has! JFK did,Eisenhower did,Johnson did,even ole George Washington had a few on the side.I'm not saying cheating on your wife is good,but that had nothing to do with running the country,yeah his personal life was rocky,but he did a good job running the country.And I don't believe a word about selling the secrets,thats just republican propoganda.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

When Bill was the president the economy was great and unemployment was at an all time low.the country was doing great! it seems 2 years after Bush is in the country is not doing well at all. So what he cheated on his wife,just about every great president has! JFK did,Eisenhower did,Johnson did,even ole George Washington had a few on the side.I'm not saying cheating on your wife is good,but that had nothing to do with running the country,yeah his personal life was rocky,but he did a good job running the country.And I don't believe a word about selling the secrets,thats just republican propoganda.

Well, based on everything I've read and seen, Clinton nearly ran the country into the hole. Also, if Bush is to blame, what exactly did he do to hurt the country? Libberrating Iraq perhaps?

 

Oh, so we're not entirely off topic... I think the "economy" of Trek's future is more of a merge of barter and credit. :o

[Klingonmike 0]

Bush did not liberate Iraq,the good soldiers of this country and its allies did.Clinton did not run the country into a hole,as I said before the economy was the best it had been in years and the country was very properous.That can not be said about the country now,we went into a recession soon after Bush took office.

I for one look forward to him being voted out of office.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Bush did not liberate Iraq,the good soldiers of this country and its allies did.Clinton did not run the country into a hole,as I said before the economy was the best it had been in years and the country was very properous.That can not be said about the country now,we went into a recession soon after Bush took office.

I for one look forward to him being voted out of office.

True, but Clinton would'a sat back and done nothing. Bush may not have liberrated Iraq himself, but he was the one who orderred the soldiers to go in and do the job swiftly and with minimal casualties if I'm not mistaken.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

Getting back to the original topic; the quote regarding money is "the love of money is the root of all evil" Money in and of itself isn't evil; it's when people seek after material possessions to the exclusion of integrity, compassion, family responsibility etc that material possessions become evil.

 

I think the concept of a future with no money is pure fantasy. If you don't have to work in order to receive clothing, food, entertainment etc why would you get up and go to work. Starships don't build themselves; food doesn't grow itself etc.

 

I do think there could be improvements in the access to wealth but I'm too tired to discuss that.

 

However, here are my thoughts on the current economy. Let's use this example - if I buy a used car and it breaks down the next day - it's probably a result of the prior owners wear and tear - not mine. Then there is the undeniable fact that things in this country changed in Sept 2001 which has had an impact on the economy. It's also evident that had the previous administration hadn't dropped the ball in combating terrorism it might not have come to this.

 

Goodness knows, I'm no particularly fan of "W" but I don't think he is to blame for all our current economic woes.

[Klingonmike 0]

Of course Clinton would have done the same thing,did you forget about Bosnia? The ethnic cleansing going on there and Clinton ordered the airstrikes that brought that evil regime down and had the president of that country arrested and charged with crimes against humanity.

You have no clue what your talking about.

Bill Clinton was a good president and no matter what stories you make up about him will not change that.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Of course Clinton would have done the same thing,did you forget about Bosnia? The ethnic cleansing going on there and Clinton ordered the airstrikes that brought that evil regime down and had the president of that country arrested and charged with crimes against humanity.

You have no clue what your talking about.

Bill Clinton was a good president and no matter what stories you make up about him will not change that.

OK, look. I'm convinced I'm right, you're convinced you're right. However, I'm not well versed in politics and this is off topic. However, if you'd like to start a "Bush VS. Clinton" thread, I'd be happy to do some reading and have a friendly debate. :o

[Klingonmike 0]

We'll just have to agree to disagree,this is why in a social setting people should not discuss politics and relgion.No one can agree on one thing.

I do admit is was a good little debate tho! :o

[master_q 0]

Well for what ever reason we went off topic – to the war of Iraq to the economy we have now in terms of how well it is doing . . . .

 

“Bush did not liberate Iraq,the good soldiers of this country and its allies.”

 

But he sent them there! That’s the real point (How can it be any different then that?)...

 

For the economy I think you have to know that it went bad during Bill’s term and did not start with George. Clinton did nothing when it accord. It was a bobble waiting to happen and he did nothing.

 

The economy is not great because nothing has been past in the senate / house until now (and still the tax cut is in question to if it will survive). It is not Bush’s fault! For the past few years he has been saying the solution to the problem, but the senate has not been acting on it until now. So you can’t really blame Bush.

 

Klingonmike,

-How is someone a good president when he lies to the American public? (Is that a “good” president?)

-He had the ability of fix the economy before the “dot com crash” happened, but did nothing.

-He is more concerned with himself, then the American public! (Now that can’t be disputed)

-He could have dealt with the threat of terror in other countries where hundreds of people died for attacks, but his solution was to throw one or two missiles at them and nothing more. (By doing that he accomplished nothing and just made even more people hate us.)

-And there are so much more, but truly I don’t see how anyone would want a person like Clinton representing America - he had bad morals and ethics . . . He ONLY played politics to advance HIM (There are numerous examples. You might be able to, in your mind, justify a few of them. . . but you could not justify them all as a whole)

 

--------

 

 

For the quote that’s how I allows heard it, but really either way it is equivalent (So the equivalence of them does not really make them “inaccurate” CJLP - they mean the same basic thing - except for the possible interpretation).

 

 

I think we should just stick with the topic at hand (“Barter Econ”) and not Clinton / Bush (we can do that in the off topic board)

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Well for what ever reason we went off topic – to the war of Iraq to the economy we have now in terms of how well it is doing . . . .

 

“Bush did not liberate Iraq,the good soldiers of this country and its allies.”

 

But he sent them there! That’s the real point (How can it be any different then that?)...

 

For the economy I think you have to know that it went bad during Bill’s term and did not start with George. Clinton did nothing when it accord. It was a bobble waiting to happen and he did nothing.

 

The economy is not great because nothing has been past in the senate / house until now (and still the tax cut is in question to if it will survive). It is not Bush’s fault! For the past few years he has been saying the solution to the problem, but the senate has not been acting on it until now. So you can’t really blame Bush.

 

Klingonmike,

-How is someone a good president when he lies to the American public? (Is that a “good” president?)

-He had the ability of fix the economy before the “dot com crash” happened, but did nothing.

-He is more concerned with himself, then the American public! (Now that can’t be disputed)

-He could have dealt with the threat of terror in other countries where hundreds of people died for attacks, but his solution was to throw one or two missiles at them and nothing more. (By doing that he accomplished nothing and just made even more people hate us.)

-And there are so much more, but truly I don’t see how anyone would want a person like Clinton representing America - he had bad morals and ethics . . . He ONLY played politics to advance HIM (There are numerous examples. You might be able to, in your mind, justify a few of them. . . but you could not justify them all as a whole)

 

--------

 

 

For the quote that’s how I allows heard it, but really either way it is equivalent (So the equivalence of them does not really make them “inaccurate” CJLP - they mean the same basic thing - except for the possible interpretation).

 

 

I think we should just stick with the topic at hand (“Barter Econ”) and not Clinton / Bush (we can do that in the off topic board)

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

Well said!

 

"Money is the root of all evil."

"The love of money is the root of all evil."

 

One qoute implies that money is evil. The other qoute implies that the "love of money" is evil, not money itself. I've allways believed it's the love of money that is the root of evil, not money itself. :o

 

Now, let's get back on topic, people.

[Lollypop 0]

The bubble had to burst sometime.

[Lollypop 0]

20% of the people have 80% of the money. It's another example of the famous 80/20 rule. It applies to just about everything in life. I can't remember who came up with this rule, maybe someone else can enlighten us.

 

Found it.. :o

 

http://www.paretolaw.co.uk/principle.html

[Klingonmike 0]

Sorry I'm just not going to try and defend my favorite president to the Bush lovers.I know he's a good man and thats all that matters to me.

[ARMS 0]

The federation is communist, communism that works, yes it is possible, but people need to open their minds.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

The federation is communist, communism that works, yes it is possible, but people need to open their minds.

The Federation is fantasy...it works because it's written that way. It is not the real world.

[ensign_beedrill 0]

For those of you disputing the quote, I have it right here from it's original source, the Bible.

 

"But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." -- 1 Timothy 6:6-10

 

Here's one of my favorite quotes about money:

 

"This planet [Earth] has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pices of paper that were unhappy." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

 

I agree that a barter economy might not be feasible. Some things are not as wanted as others. Say, for instance, that there's a guy who makes cheese. So he trades cheese for the things that he needs. But not many people like cheese. They don't want it. They don't want to trade with him. Poor guy, now he doesn't have what he needs. See the problem? With money, we have that covered. Money is something everyone can want. I don't know much about economy, but I think that's a good analogy...

 

But what about replicators. If everyone has a replicator, what's the need for money? You can just... replicate what you need. That's the part I don't get.

 

If you don't have to work in order to receive clothing, food, entertainment etc why would you get up and go to work.

 

Maybe in the future, humans will be more driven. I'd work for no money if I had everything I needed, as long as it was a job I liked. Maybe the knowledge that they are furthering the development of mankind is all the payment they need. Maybe it's the satisfaction of a job well done. Maybe it's the satisfaction of doing something for others. Things do not always need to be done for material gain.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

If you don't have to work in order to receive clothing, food, entertainment etc why would you get up and go to work.

 

Maybe in the future, humans will be more driven. I'd work for no money if I had everything I needed, as long as it was a job I liked. Maybe the knowledge that they are furthering the development of mankind is all the payment they need. Maybe it's the satisfaction of a job well done. Maybe it's the satisfaction of doing something for others. Things do not always need to be done for material gain.

I suppose it's in the realm of possibilities but I personally doubt it. Only a handful of people on these boards can think of a living person they admire and yet within two hundred years we're all going to be altruistic -

 

As for replicators...someone has to build them, after someone mines or processes the raw materials, and ship them and keep track of who needs them and where; and manage how many need to be built within what time frame and someone has to make sure people are trained to both build and repair them and of course they need the tools and equipment which someone will have to manufacturer after someone else has to teach them how to.........

 

Personally I think providing equal access to money would be more effective than eliminating it.

[master_q 0]

The federation is communist, communism that works, yes it is possible, but people need to open their minds.

No, that’s not true.

 

There are many very large differences between the two systems.

 

 

As you know Communist is a "Command Econ", but in a Barter Econ it really would not be one. In other words the government would not own everything. In the ST Universe it would be accurate to say "that is my house and I own it", but in a command econ you could not technically say that.

 

Even in the exchange of services they would be hindered in the barter econ compared to the command one. There would be a lack of organization in this general exchange when we compare these two econs.

 

In the ST Universe while we would have some kind of work there would be rights and that’s a major one.

 

The list goes on, but I think you get the point.

 

 

It is true that some problems that face a command econ would face a barter one, but there are major differences. Both have (or would have - barter) unemployment problems, . . .

But there are a lot of differences

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[ARMS 0]

I wish i lived in a country, were everyone got the essential food, clothing, shelter, safe drinkin' water and health care to stay alive and well.

 

And if you wanted ellaborate food and drink, nice clothing and added health care (comparable to say, bupa), you would have to work for it.

 

That'd be heaven...

[master_q 0]

I wish i lived in a country, were everyone got the essential food, clothing, shelter, safe drinkin' water and health care to stay alive and well.

 

And if you wanted ellaborate food and drink, nice clothing and added health care (comparable to say, bupa), you would have to work for it.

 

That'd be heaven...

Maybe in the future everyone will get those essentials (and that would be great), but I do not see a barter system working in the future.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I wish i lived in a country, were everyone got the essential food, clothing, shelter, safe drinkin' water and health care to stay alive and well.

 

And if you wanted ellaborate food and drink, nice clothing and added health care (comparable to say, bupa), you would have to work for it.

 

That'd be heaven...

In the US we have a system where people can get some level of those things by drawing money from those that do work. Heaven isn't the word I would use for it.

 

Heaven to me is where everyone is willing to participate and do their equal share; in return everyone that shares whatever skill or talent they possess for the common good, however simple or elaborate, receives a comfy life; because if everyone co-operated there would be more than enough to go around.