After Gene Roddenberry Trek

[HRH The KING 0]

It was a very good show, I agree.

 

They should have kept it running, but unfortunately in 1994, Paramount made their biggest mistake and ended the show because they wanted to make TNG movies. Thus followed:

 

Generations: Terrible movie. Essentially Rick Berman indulging his hatred of the Original Series and being so spiteful to kill off Captain Kirk for no good reason other than satifisfying his own egomania.

 

First Contact: A success. The best of the TNG movies.

 

Insurrection: Boring, dull, full of plotholes and added nothing substantial to the franchise. While DS9 was exciting and thrilling with it's superbly written episodes, this movie features the crew of the Enterprise plodding around the most tedious planet in the galaxy. A Dominion related storyline would have been preferable.

 

Nemesis: The less said about this, the better. Thankfully, the last TNG movie.

[gul_nodrog 2]

Generations: Terrible movie. Essentially Rick Berman indulging his hatred of the Original Series and being so spiteful to kill off Captain Kirk for no good reason other than satifisfying his own egomania.

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If Rick Berman hated the original series, why was he involved in Star Trek:TNG, Star Trek: DS9, Star Trek: Voyager or Star Trek: Enterprise in the first place?

 

I mean, if he did/does hate TOS why get involved in Star Trek anything? I'm not saying that you are wrong about him. I honestly don't know much about Berman other than his name at the end of the episode. I don't read much "Trek" news ... I just watch the shows (except Enterprise .... ick). Aside from interviews with Berman on the DVD extras, I really have never paid much attention to his blather at all.

 

Did he say somewhere in some magazine or interview that he didn't like TOS? Or was it just that he had a mandate that no TOS stuff be mentioned on TNG when it first started to allow TNG to stand on its own?

 

On a side note: I got my first look/listen to that Bragga dude on the Season 6 special features last night. Now there's a guy I don't think that I would like very much ... what a punk.

[HRH The KING 0]

If Rick Berman hated the original series, why was he involved in Star Trek:TNG, Star Trek: DS9, Star Trek: Voyager or Star Trek: Enterprise in the first place?

 

Berman's always seen it as just "a job". He has no real interest in keeping up the ideals of Star Trek. He's just basically a stooge of Paramount and he's allowed the franchise to decline to the point of death because he can't give anything fresh and interesting to Star Trek.

 

I mean, if he did/does hate TOS why get involved in Star Trek anything? I'm not saying that you are wrong about him. I honestly don't know much about Berman other than his name at the end of the episode. I don't read much "Trek" news ... I just watch the shows (except Enterprise .... ick). Aside from interviews with Berman on the DVD extras, I really have never paid much attention to his blather at all.

 

Click For Spoiler

Well, he was chosen by Paramount to replace Gene Roddenberry after his death, although he worked with Gene in the last years of his life. Once Gene died, Berman took over the franchise and kept it going pretty well for three years with Michael Piller's assistance. However 1994 was when it all started breaking down.

 

Did he say somewhere in some magazine or interview that he didn't like TOS? Or was it just that he had a mandate that no TOS stuff be mentioned on TNG when it first started to allow TNG to stand on its own?

 

I don't think he's ever said it publically that he doesn't like TOS, but one of the ideas is that he's always felt "in the shadow" of Roddenberry and the killing of Kirk was seen as his revenge over that. He thought it would be a fresh start but it was only the start of the slide. VOY was always dissapointing, DS9 owed more to Michael Piller than Rick Berman, and in fact when Berman left that show to better, more talented people, it improved as he concentrated on VOY. After that failure, he again took revenge by ending DS9, which was really the only explanation for it's end, since Paramount never made any DS9 movies.

 

Then, he creates ENT, which has been a dismal failure.

 

On a side note: I got my first look/listen to that Bragga dude on the Season 6 special features last night. Now there's a guy I don't think that I would like very much ... what a punk.

 

You're absolutely right.

 

Brannon Braga and Rick Berman, between them managed to alienate Ron Moore, one of the talented writers of Trek:

 

Ronald Moore, on Braga after being forced out of Trek:

 

"I have very hurt feelings about Brannon. What happened between he and I is just between he and I. It was a breakdown of trust. I would have quit any show where I was not allowed to participate in the process like that. I wasn’t allowed to participate in the process, and I wasn’t part of the show. I felt like I was freelancing my own show. ... I was very disappointed that my long-time friend and writing partner acted in that manner, that crossed lines to the point where I felt like I had to walk away from STAR TREK, which was something that meant a lot to me for a very long time, from my childhood right through my entire professional career."

 

They also managed to force Ira Stephen Behr out of the franchise. He was the head of Deep Space Nine, and didn't even bother transferring to VOY because he probably knew how bad things were on that show.

 

 

Mod Note: I've added the spoiler part of the way in due to the legnth of the post.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Takara_Soong

[gul_nodrog 2]

I love Ron Moore and Ira Stephen Behr. How they feel about Trek just pours out of them when you watch interviews. Michael Pillar, too.

 

As far as Behr moving over to Voyager after DS9, good Lord, why would he even have wanted to? After the work he did on DS9, how could he have gone over to schlock it on Voyager???

 

Hey, I watched Voyager, but there is just no comparison between DS9 and Voyager. One is prime rib, the other is cube steak.

 

Now that you've told me about that little weasel Bragga and how he and Berman more or less forced Ron Moore out of Trek, I KNOW I wouldn't like him. Sounds like Berman just latched onto Mr. Johnny Come Lately and cast aside the people who really made TNG/DS9 the shows they were. (Wasn't Bragga shacking up with Jeri Ryan during Voyager's run? Probably explains the whole demise of the Janeway/Chakotay flirtation.)

 

Boy, this is all way off topic for the original post .... yes, TNG was an awesome show! :)

[HRH The KING 0]

I love Ron Moore and Ira Stephen Behr. How they feel about Trek just pours out of them when you watch interviews. Michael Pillar, too.

 

I agree. All three of those guys are very talented.

 

As far as Behr moving over to Voyager after DS9, good Lord, why would he even have wanted to? After the work he did on DS9, how could he have gone over to schlock it on Voyager???

 

That's a good point actually.

 

Hey, I watched Voyager, but there is just no comparison between DS9 and Voyager. One is prime rib, the other is cube steak.

 

Well, I just felt that VOY was actually a decent premise for a show, but it depended greatly on one thing, great characters, and it just lacked those.

 

Now that you've told me about that little weasel Bragga and how he and Berman more or less forced Ron Moore out of Trek, I KNOW I wouldn't like him. Sounds like Berman just latched onto Mr. Johnny Come Lately and cast aside the people who really made TNG/DS9 the shows they were.

 

Well, Rick Berman also alienated Leonard Nimoy too. Since Berman upset him, he's had virtually nothing to do with Trek for years.

 

(Wasn't Braga shacking up with Jeri Ryan during Voyager's run? Probably explains the whole demise of the Janeway/Chakotay flirtation.)

 

He certainly was.

 

Yeah, the Janeway/Chakotay thing just vanished into nothing at all. Weird.

[Takara_Soong 4]

Click For Spoiler

Berman's always seen it as just "a job". He has no real interest in keeping up the ideals of Star Trek. He's just basically a stooge of Paramount and he's allowed the franchise to decline to the point of death because he can't give anything fresh and interesting to Star Trek.

 

Well, he was chosen by Paramount to replace Gene Roddenberry after his death, although he worked with Gene in the last years of his life. Once Gene died, Berman took over the franchise and kept it going pretty well for three years with Michael Piller's assistance. However 1994 was when it all started breaking down.

 

I don't think he's ever said it publically that he doesn't like TOS, but one of the ideas is that he's always felt "in the shadow" of Roddenberry and the killing of Kirk was seen as his revenge over that. He thought it would be a fresh start but it was only the start of the slide. VOY was always dissapointing, DS9 owed more to Michael Piller than Rick Berman, and in fact when Berman left that show to better, more talented people, it improved as he concentrated on VOY. After that failure, he again took revenge by ending DS9, which was really the only explanation for it's end, since Paramount never made any DS9 movies.

 

Then, he creates ENT, which has been a dismal failure.

 

Brannon Braga and Rick Berman, between them managed to alienate Ron Moore, one of the talented writers of Trek:

 

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I'd like to know what do you base all of your pronouncements on?

 

I've read many interviews (including ones with Majel Barrett) that said Gene Roddenberry chose Rick Berman out of a list of candidates (some suggested by Paramount). Do you really believe Mr. Roddenberry would have allowed anyone to be forced on him?!? You also seem to have a mistaken impression that Gene Roddenberry was running TNG's day-to-day operations up until his death. He wasn't. His involvement with the series lessened over time due to his ill health.

 

Rick Berman

 

Dennis Okuda

 

Rick Berman has devoted most of his adult life to Trek. Do you really believe a person who sees it as "just a job" could maintain an atmosphere where so many talented people would want to spend their entire careers? You mention Ron D. Moore, Michael Piller and Ira Stephen Behr as having left. What about the people like Peter Lauritson, Dan Curry, Michael Okuda, Ronald B. Moore, Michael Westmore, Herman Zimmerman, etc. In Hollywood terms, the fact so many incredibly talented people have stayed for the length of time they have is unheard of. Besides, with only one series currently in production, what positions would you have Ron D. Moore, Michael Piller and Ira Stephen Behr in? You can’t have 5 or 6 people as co-executive producers on a series.

 

You quote part of an interview that Ronald D. Moore gave. What he said could be interpreted in many ways. It is possible that Ronald D. Moore had difficulties adjusting to being “just” a writer and not being in charge as he had been at DS9 where he had been co-executive producer. BTW, if there is such bad blood between Brannon Braga and Ronald D. Moore, then why would they work together on Mission Impossible 2? Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga wrote the story while the screenplay was written by Robert Towne.

 

Your logic is beyond me regarding your comments on how you think Rick Berman “feels”. Why would anyone stay in a position they didn't like and felt "overshadowed" in for over 15 years!!! He didn't have to take the position, he didn't have to stay once he did. Trek isn't the ONLY job in the entertainment industry you know. As for Kirk’s death, if killing Kirk represented killing the shadow, then why would Rick Berman be trying to get William Shatner to guest on Enterprise. That would be like resurrecting this overshadowing you allege. You don’t seem to have much regard for William Shatner either. If he had any problems with Kirk being killed in Generations, why did he do the movie? It was only after some fan outcry that he changed his tune.

 

I honestly don't know where you get your information. Rick Berman has never left any Trek show. He was in charge of DS9, Voyager and TNG (series and movies) all at the same time. He put people in charge of individual projects while he was overseeing them all. If Berman wanted to kill a series like DS9, why would he name so-called "better, more talented people" as producer and co-executive producer. DS9 ended after 7 seasons just like TNG and Voyager. It was hardly revenge.

 

As far as Behr moving over to Voyager after DS9, good Lord, why would he even have wanted to? After the work he did on DS9, how could he have gone over to schlock it on Voyager???

 

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What would Ira Stephen Behr’s position at Voyager been if he had gone over to it? He was the Producer and then Co-Executive Producer of DS9. Do you really think he would have gone there to write?

 

Brannon Braga has been with Trek since 1990. How is that a Johnny Come Lately. Star Trek is the only place he’s worked (other than working on the MI2 story with Ronald D. Moore) – he started his career there after winning an Academy of Television Arts & Sciences Writing Internship.

 

Well, Rick Berman also alienated Leonard Nimoy too. Since Berman upset him, he's had virtually nothing to do with Trek for years.[/b]

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Can you provided anything more than your opinion to substantiate that. Mr. Nimoy has been concentrating on his photography for years.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Takara_Soong

[HRH The KING 0]

Click For Spoiler

I'd like to know what do you base all of your pronouncements on?

 

I'll tell you.

 

I've read many interviews (including ones with Majel Barrett) that said Gene Roddenberry chose Rick Berman out of a list of candidates (some suggested by Paramount).

 

He did, like I said, Berman was a "yes" man for Gene, until he died.

 

Do you really believe Mr. Roddenberry would have allowed anyone to be forced on him?!?

 

Of course. Paramount often overruled Gene Roddenberry.

 

You also seem to have a mistaken impression that Gene Roddenberry was running TNG's day-to-day operations up until his death. He wasn't. His involvement with the series lessened over time due to his ill health.

 

Actually I'm far from mistaken. Like I said, the studio often overruled Roddenberry.

 

Rick Berman

 

His comments on that audio file were laughable. He's shown zero respect for Gene Roddenberry and the franchise.

 

The other audio file didn't work.

 

Rick Berman has devoted most of his adult life to Trek. Do you really believe a person who sees it as "just a job" could maintain an atmosphere where so many talented people would want to spend their entire careers?

 

Of course he sees it as a job. All he's done is maintain an atmosphere inside the franchise where people want to leave.

 

You mention Ron D. Moore, Michael Piller and Ira Stephen Behr as having left.

 

I certainly did.

 

What about the people like Peter Lauritson

 

One producer remaining after three have been driven away doesn't impress me.

 

Dan Curry, Michael Okuda, Ronald B. Moore, Michael Westmore, Herman Zimmerman, etc.

 

These are all people connected in some way to either special effects, production design, costumes and technical aspects of the franchise. They are not involved in the creative process of writing for Trek.

 

In Hollywood terms, the fact so many incredibly talented people have stayed for the length of time they have is unheard of.

 

Not really, many shows run for a long time, and they generally keep the same production design and technical staff.

 

Besides, with only one series currently in production, what positions would you have Ron D. Moore, Michael Piller and Ira Stephen Behr in? You can’t have 5 or 6 people as co-executive producers on a series.

 

I would have Michael Piller as Executive Producer and Behr and Moore as Producers. All three could work together on scripts and stories, preferabley not on ENT, but on a show which is actually worth watching.

 

That only makes three, not five or six.

 

You quote part of an interview that Ronald D. Moore gave. What he said could be interpreted in many ways.

 

It seemed pretty clear to me.

 

It is possible that Ronald D. Moore had difficulties adjusting to being “just” a writer and not being in charge as he had been at DS9 where he had been co-executive producer.

 

Actually, the split came because Moore was concerned because of Braga's lack of concern for continuity in the franchise, and besides, Deep Space Nine is more highly regarded than ENT in terms of it's writing and even it's ratings. So, I could understand Moore's anger with the direction the franchise began to move in under Braga.

 

BTW, if there is such bad blood between Brannon Braga and Ronald D. Moore, then why would they work together on Mission Impossible 2? Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga wrote the story while the screenplay was written by Robert Towne.

 

They wrote that screenplay in 1999, the same year DS9 ended and just before they fell out.

 

Besides, their script wasn't used anyway. They received credit, but the final movie was not the one they wrote.

 

Your logic is beyond me regarding your comments on how you think Rick Berman “feels”.

 

Based on the state of Trek. The fact is that over the past eleven years, the franchise has fallen deeper and deeper. So either, he WANTS it to fail, which I doubt, or he wanted to take it in his own direction and it's failed miserably.

 

Why would anyone stay in a position they didn't like and felt "overshadowed" in for over 15 years!!!

 

It might have something to do with the money he's being paid.

 

He didn't have to take the position, he didn't have to stay once he did.

 

No, and it's a shame he did take the position. If Trek wants to improve, Paramount must change the leadership.

 

Trek isn't the ONLY job in the entertainment industry you know.

 

I'm fully aware of that.

 

As for Kirk’s death, if killing Kirk represented killing the shadow, then why would Rick Berman be trying to get William Shatner to guest on Enterprise.

 

Because he made a mistake killing Kirk, and now he's desperately trying to bring Shatner back to give his failing show a lift.

 

That would be like resurrecting this overshadowing you allege.

 

It certainly is that.

 

You don’t seem to have much regard for William Shatner either.

 

Not at the moment. But looking at him in his prime, he was quite outstanding.

 

If he had any problems with Kirk being killed in Generations, why did he do the movie?

 

Money.

 

It was only after some fan outcry that he changed his tune.

 

Well, good for him for listening to the fans. Braga and Berman might try that approach too.

 

I honestly don't know where you get your information. Rick Berman has never left any Trek show.

 

He shifted his attention from DS9 to concentrate on VOY. At that time, general control and creative elements were handed over.

 

He was in charge of DS9, Voyager and TNG (series and movies) all at the same time.

 

His role with DS9 was mainly nominal. ISB had pretty much all the control over that excellent show. VOY was a poor series, so were the TNG movies except FC.

 

He put people in charge of individual projects while he was overseeing them all.

 

Yes, and the people put in charge of DS9 showed him how it should be done. The credit for the high standards of writing and producing on that show does not go to him.

 

If Berman wanted to kill a series like DS9, why would he name so-called "better, more talented people" as producer and co-executive producer.

 

It was possibly motivated by need. He had to cede control of DS9 because VOY was sold as the flagship of UPN and there was greater pressure for it to succeed because in essence, it had an entire network to carry.

 

DS9 ended after 7 seasons just like TNG and Voyager. It was hardly revenge.

 

TNG ended because the studio foolishly wanted movies. VOY ended because it had never really caught on. IMO, DS9 ended because it was eclipsing VOY and Berman wanted it gone.

 

What would Ira Stephen Behr’s position at Voyager been if he had gone over to it?

 

I think Producer with Ron Moore and Michael Piller would have been OK. They may have been able to get something from that show.

 

He was the Producer and then Co-Executive Producer of DS9.

 

I know.

 

Do you really think he would have gone there to write?

 

Yes. As a producer and a writer, he could have been very useful.

 

Can you provided anything more than your opinion to substantiate that. Mr. Nimoy has been concentrating on his photography for years.

 

Excerpt from a interview done a few years back with Leonard Nimoy concerning Trek

 

"Nimoy licenses the character from Paramount; that's the extent of his relationship with the studio.

 

"Which is a shame," Nimoy says, "since Rick Berman and I used to be friends."

 

 

Mod note: I've put this in a spoiler due to its length.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Takara_Soong

[HRH The KING 0]

Cool!!!!

 

That's a good idea.

 

I'll do that from now on.

 

Thanks! B)

[Stephen of Borg 2]

Berman made First Contact. Good movie

[gul_nodrog 2]

I find the heading on this topic kind of weird, since "After Gene Rodenberry Trek" has a kind of negative connotation to it and that Trek includes some of the best Trek in the history of the franchise -- DS9 and First Contact. Shouldn't we have called it "Berman Bashing" instead? B)

 

Click For Spoiler

As I stated in my previous post, I don't read much about Trek in magazines, so I really know little about this entire "mess," "thing," "situation," or whatever with Berman or Braga.

 

I can only speak about what I intuit from watching the special features on the DVDs and from watching 4 Trek series religiously.

 

I call Braga a "Johnny Come Lately" because at the time TNG was on he came on board "later" than most of the others. (And it's the most insulting way I could think of in referring to him.) And am not against all post-Gene Trek. I don't care about Gene Roddenberry's "vision" ( B) don't shoot me, but I just don't) ... I think he would turn in his grave if saw DS9's last four seasons! However, it was the best of Trek to me. B)

 

I am basing my opinions on Berman and Braga pretty much on the interviews they give on the special features of the DVDs (TNG). Braga did not show up until Season 6 on those special features and I have to say there is definitely something about him that I quite simply do not like. He has an air and a look that make my skin crawl. Opposite of those feelings are the ones I get from watching Ron Moore and Michael Pillar speak, and Ira Stephen Behr along with those two on the DS9 DVDs.

 

What I do hold Berman responsible for (as the grand poobah in charge of the franchise) is the lack of caring about the details or the history behind the story when he is approving these scripts for the movies.

 

In Generations, Scotty watches Kirk "die" when the Nexxus takes him. However in "Relics" where Scotty shows up on TNG (Season 6), he thinks Kirk is still alive "I knew James Kirk would get the Enterprise out of mothballs and come to rescue me" -- something like that. It's the little things like that which make Trek what it is that I don't think the Rickster understands. Likewise, wouldn't it have been a nice homage to the original series if CAROL MARKESON (TWOK) had been the woman with Kirk in the Nexxus? Not some no name chick we've never heard of. Fans would have eaten it up with a spoon, but I don't think he "gets" that.

 

And it felt to me like Berman was trying to flout his "authority" over the franchise by completely dismantling the character development of Worf over at DS9, dismissing it outright, by having Worf revert to the token bumbling drunk Klingon in Nemesis. After everything the character had been through on DS9, I wondered if this so-called "Trek" fan involved in writing Nemesis had even watched DS9? He sure didn't care anything about the fans of the series ... I was highly offended by Worf's portrayal.

 

It all smacks of Berman's disregard and lack of respect for the fans and the story. And there is nothing wrong with the assumption that this is "just a job" for Berman. I have had many jobs that were "just jobs" to me ... You can tell by listening to him that he does not have the same attitude toward Star Trek that many of the other folks who were working on the writing end did.

 

It seems to me that Berman's problem may be that he is somewhat of a micro-manager, perhaps has too much of an ego, likes being the head cheese too much, maybe has some insecurities. Any of these would explain the feeling that he eliminates or nudges out those whose "stars" may rise above his own.

 

This is my two cents based on personal observation only. I do not claim to have any authoritative knowledge ... just a fan talking here.

Edited January 5, 2005 by gul_nodrog

[Takara_Soong 4]

Click For Spoiler

I find the heading on this topic kind of weird, since "After Gene Rodenberry Trek" has a kind of negative connotation to it and that Trek includes some of the best Trek in the history of the franchise -- DS9 and First Contact.  Shouldn't we have called it "Berman Bashing" instead? B)

 

I call Braga a "Johnny Come Lately" because at the time TNG was on he came on board "later" than most of the others. (And it's the most insulting way I could think of in referring to him.) And am not against all post-Gene Trek.  I don't care about Gene Roddenberry's "vision" ( B) don't shoot me, but I just don't) ... I think he would turn in his grave if saw DS9's last four seasons!  However, it was the best of Trek to me. B)

 

I am basing my opinions on Berman and Braga pretty much on the interviews they give on the special features of the DVDs (TNG).  Braga did not show up until Season 6 on those special features and I have to say there is definitely something about him that I quite simply do not like.  He has an air and a look that make my skin crawl.  Opposite of those feelings are the ones I get from watching Ron Moore and Michael Pillar speak, and Ira Stephen Behr along with those two on the DS9 DVDs.

 

What I do hold Berman responsible for (as the grand poobah in charge of the franchise) is the lack of caring about the details or the history behind the story when he is approving these scripts for the movies.

 

In Generations, Scotty watches Kirk "die" when the Nexxus takes him.  However in "Relics" where Scotty shows up on TNG (Season 6), he thinks Kirk is still alive "I knew James Kirk would get the Enterprise out of mothballs and come to rescue me" -- something like that.  It's the little things like that which make Trek what it is that I don't think the Rickster understands.  Likewise, wouldn't it have been a nice homage to the original series if CAROL MARKESON (TWOK) had been the woman with Kirk in the Nexxus?  Not some no name chick we've never heard of.  Fans would have eaten it up with a spoon, but I don't think he "gets" that.

 

And it felt to me like Berman was trying to flout his "authority" over the franchise by completely dismantling the character development of Worf over at DS9, dismissing it outright, by having Worf revert to the token bumbling drunk Klingon in Nemesis.  After everything the character had been through on DS9, I wondered if this so-called "Trek" fan involved in writing Nemesis had even watched DS9?  He sure didn't care anything about the fans of the series ... I was highly offended by Worf's portrayal. 

 

It all smacks of Berman's disregard and lack of respect for the fans and the story.  And there is nothing wrong with the assumption that this is "just a job" for Berman.  I have had many jobs that were "just jobs" to me ... You can tell by listening to him that he does not have the same attitude toward Star Trek that many of the other folks who were working on the writing end did. 

 

It seems to me that Berman's problem may be that he is somewhat of a micro-manager, perhaps has too much of an ego, likes being the head cheese too much, maybe has some insecurities.  Any of these would explain the feeling that he eliminates or nudges out those whose "stars" may rise above his own.

 

This is my two cents based on personal observation only.  I do not claim to have any authoritative knowledge ... just a fan talking here.

294648[/snapback]

 

I didn't use the title you suggested to name this thread as I hoped this would be a discussion of Trek since Gene Roddenberry's death and not simply taking potshots at one man. The term "bashing" to me has much more negative connotations to me than the topic title I chose.

 

Click For Spoiler

Brannon Braga joined the writing team in 1990. Ronald D. Moore and Michael Piller joined in 1989. Ira Stephen Behr was involved in the writing of 4 TNG scripts before going to DS9. He was never a member of the TNG writing team.

 

Brannon Braga has been bashed in this thread for Voyager yet he was co-executive producer for seasons 5 and 6 only. Michael Piller was a co-creator and co-executive producer of Voyager and wrote a number of episodes during the first three seasons. He then became a creative consultant until the series ended. He was co-executive producer at DS9 for the first two seasons ONLY before going to Voyager. Check the credits for the DS9, his name doesn't appear after season 2. Rick Berman was sole executive producer of DS9 until Ira Stephen Behr was added as a co-executive producer in season 5. Michael Piller was not forced out of Trek by anyone, BTW. Here is a portion of a June, 2002 chat he did at st.com:

 

Q: Do you think that you will return to the Star Trek universe again, either writing a new story for Enterprise, or a screenplay for future Trek movies? Or perhaps even direct a Trek movie?

 

MP: I have no interest in directing at all. ... I would never rule out any possibility when it comes to Star Trek, but I felt that I had done just about everything I could do in space when I left.

 

Q: Did you ever regret leaving Star Trek?

 

MP: Any time you leave a family, whether it's your own family to go off to college or the Star Trek family to go off and explore other worlds, there will always be bittersweet feelings. But I know it was the right thing to do.

 

Q: Have you watched Enterprise, and if so, what do you think of it?

 

MP: I think Brannon and Rick are doing a great job

 

Q: You were indeed one of the greatest Star Trek writers of all. Were you very happy with the success of both DS9 and Voyager throughout their seven year runs?

 

MP: Thank you so much. I share the honors of the success of those shows with many, many talented writers and crew members and cast members. I believe Deep Space Nine will be appreciated more as time goes on, rather like the tradition of the original Star Trek.

 

I certainly don't want anyone to think I'm bashing Ron D. Moore, Michael Piller or Ira Stephen Behr because I'm not. I acknowledge their great contributions to Trek. I'm just trying to point out that no one is perfect and that I feel some people are being unfairly picked out for critisism.

 

I'm certainly not going to shoot you because you don't care about Gene Roddenberry's vision. I may get shot for this but I don't agree with the way some have turned Gene Roddenberry into almost a God-like figure who was perfect and could do no wrong. He had character flaws and made mistakes just like we all do. Gene Roddenberry didn't want to cast Patrick Stewart as Picard or have a Klingon on the bridge of the Enterprise-D. Luckily for us, he was convinced by others to do it. (If you've seen the first season cast photo you'll see that Worf isn't in it, because he wasn't added until later.) Gene Roddenberry is also the one who gave us Wesley Crusher. Personally I care about the vision in respect to the hopefulness for the future. I also know that visions can change and evolve. If Mr. Roddenberry were still alive we have no idea what his vision would look like today. Still hopeful though I'm sure.

 

I'm going to move on to your comments about Generations. I'm sure you probably know that the script was originally written having Spock with Kirk and Chekov. When Leonard Nimoy turned down the part, it was changed to Scotty. The PTB acknowledge the difficulties with the TNG episode Relics in which Scotty didn't seem to know that Kirk was dead. It has been suggested, and accepted by many, that since Scotty had been trapped in the transporter for so long that he was disoriented and momentarily forget about Kirk's death. He did mention Kirk just after he had been re-materialized as you mentioned.

 

As for the woman in the Nexus with Kirk, that was William Shatner's idea. Rick Berman is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't (used darn because of board censor lol). He uses Shatner's idea and gets bashed but if he didn't he probably would have been bashed for ignoring the great Captain Kirk's idea.

 

I don't think "ignored" is the right word to talk about the way the character of Worf was written in the movies. Maybe it would have been better to not have Worf in the movies after he joined DS9 since people did complain about the way he "just showed up". I think it is mostly the format of a movie - being approximately 2 hours long and not being able to focus on many characters - that left the changes in Worf unexplored. Also, if you look at the ratings of DS9 compared to TNG, there were many TNG fans who would have been unaware of Worf's development on that series. Writing him too differently would then bring on a bunch of different bashes at the movies.

 

Now for Nemesis, Worf wasn't drunk in the movie, he was hungover. Klingons have been known to party pretty hardy so it isn't unbelievable that he could have a hangover. You are correct that John Logan didn't watched DS9. The Trek he watched growing up was TOS and TNG. As I said above, if you compare the ratings of TNG and DS9, you will find he wasn't the only one who loved TNG but didn't watch DS9 (myself included). Also when considering Nemesis, don't forget the interference from Paramount. Paramount, not Rick Berman, hired Stuart Baird to direct. Stuart Baird then brought in a number of people he was comfortable with - none of whom knew anything about Trek. For example, when I saw the end credits I was shocked that someone other than Junie Lowry-Johnson did the casting for Nemesis (she got credit for the "original casting"). She's been casting Trek since the first season of TNG and still casts Enterprise.

 

No one will ever convince me that a person who stays in a position for as long as Rick Berman has can consider it to be "just a job" especially in the entertainment industry. You say you have had a number of jobs that you had considered to be "just jobs" which just goes to prove my point. You left those jobs. People can argue that he's paid a lot to stay or whatever but, in the end, if you aren't happy with your job eventually you're going to leave. Also, why would anyone stay in a position where they are so much under a microscope by fans and are the butt of so many negative comments if he didn’t love his job.

 

You can't think of the entertainment industry as being like any other business. Longevity is virtually non-existent. Despite what some people think, having a core group of "behind the scenes" people staying for 15-20 years would be considered unusual at a big, multi-national corporation but in the entertainment industry, it is unprecedented.

 

Personally, I don’t think it would have matter who had taken over from Gene Roddenberry. Whoever took over was going to be judged, criticized, etc. just because they are not Gene Roddenberry. Over time, I don’t think even his son would have been spared the grief that Rick Berman has been given by fans.

[gul_nodrog 2]

^I just meant that the inference was that folks who didn't like Rick Berman or that Brannon Braga character just didn't like them because they were not Gene Roddenberry and felt that any Trek that came after Roddenberry was substandard ... obviously, I do not feel that way because my favorite Trek is DS9.

 

I agree ... they should have left Worf out of Insurrection and Nemesis. Give him a cameo like Sulu got in ST: VI and left it at that. But I guess it's all about the money for everyone involved (these are their jobs after all).

 

Mainly, I just don't get the "warm fuzzies" from Berman or Braga that I get from Behr, Moore, & Pillar. Right or wrong, my impression is that B&B do not care as much about Trek's past as others involved in the projects do. Right or wrong, that is how I feel.

 

When I posted originally in this thread, I was just coming off of watching the first interview I'd ever seen with Braga and my impression of him was not a good one ... he just kind of creeped me out. And I'd never heard anything about him before this post got started ... except that he was an item with Jeri Ryan.

 

There are so many people out there writing really great Trek novels, people who really love the whole Trek universe and know it backward and forward ... if Paramount, Berman or whoever is really in charge would get their heads out of their rears and look these folks up, I think we could see a real Trek renaissance.

[Takara_Soong 4]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens at Paramount once Sherry Lansing leaves. Her contract expires at the end of 2005 but she has already announced she's leaving. We'll have to see how her replacement feels about Trek.

 

Talent manager and sometime producer Brad Grey is about to undergo the test of fire experienced by superagent Michael Ovitz a year ago -- going from seller of talent to buyer. According to a weekend report in the Los Angeles Times, Grey is about to be appointed head of Paramount Pictures, succeeding Sherry Lansing. The newspaper reported today (Monday) that officials of Paramount's parent company Viacom and Grey were finalizing a deal on Sunday that will be presented to Viacom's compensation committee for approval today.

 

Here is a link to Brad Grey's profile at IMDB.

[HRH The KING 0]

I agree with Nodrog about the treatment of Worf. Built into a great character through TNG and DS9, only to be the "class clown" in the INS and NEM. B)

 

 

This is the problem as I see it.

 

Rick Berman is the head of the franchise, so he bear the responsibility for it's failures, and it's virtually impossible to deny that Star Trek is in trouble.

 

Paramount also bear the responsibility for its weakness. Bad decisions like the ending of DS9 and TNG have damaged the franchise badly. With the exception of FC, the TNG movies did not perform well. VOY flopped, ENT even more so.

 

Rick Berman needs to be replaced, Braga along with him. Ideally, I'd like to see Behr, Echevarria, Piller, and Moore make a return, but it depends greatly on the premise of a new series, which I would say should be set about 40 years after TNG.

 

Although personally, I prefer the idea of Star Trek "mini movies", each with a different story or adventure from the Trek universe. I've already mentioned before on this site that Straight-To-DVD releases would be preferable to sinking millions into "the blockbuster" movie. Another one would be a colossal disaster, since I just don't have the faith that Berman and Braga could deliver a success.

Edited January 6, 2005 by The King

[Takara_Soong 4]

Click For Spoiler

I agree with Nodrog about the treatment of Worf. Built into a great character through TNG and DS9, only to be the "class clown" in the INS and NEM.  B)

 

 

This is the problem as I see it.

 

Rick Berman is the head of the franchise, so he bear the responsibility for it's failures, and it's virtually impossible to deny that Star Trek is in trouble.

 

Paramount also bear the responsibility for its weakness. Bad decisions like the ending of DS9 and TNG have damaged the franchise badly. With the exception of FC, the TNG movies did not perform well. VOY flopped, ENT even more so.

 

Rick Berman needs to be replaced, Braga along with him. Ideally, I'd like to see Behr, Echevarria, Piller, and Moore make a return, but it depends greatly on the premise of a new series, which I would say should be set about 40 years after TNG.

 

Although personally, I prefer the idea of Star Trek "mini movies", each with a different story or adventure from the Trek universe. I've already mentioned before on this site that Straight-To-DVD releases would be preferable to sinking millions into "the blockbuster" movie. Another one would be a colossal disaster, since I just don't have the faith that Berman and Braga could deliver a success.

294744[/snapback]

 

The word "failure" is so subjective. You don't like Enterprise so you deem it to be a failure. Because Enterprise is shown on a network, it's ratings are deemed by some to be a failure. If Enterprise were in syndication, it's current ratings would make it the highest rated sci-fi program. Most people I've spoken to think Enterprise would be far better off syndicated.

 

TNG, DS9 and Voyager were not cancelled. After TNG went 7 seasons (it almost ended after 6), it was decided that each subsequent series would be for 7 seasons. If you have read any posts in the Enterprise forum regarding the possible cancelling of the series, you would have seen a number of responses by people saying they hope the series goes the full 7 seasons. They didn't just pull that number out of the air.

 

Voyager was the first Star Trek series to appear on UPN and not in syndication. It's ratings were hurt because of the lack of coverage area of UPN. Even now, there are many areas in the States that don't get UPN. If people in those areas are lucky, they get Enterprise in the middle of the night on a FOX station.

 

And remember, all television ratings are down compared to what they were before the 500 channel universe was brought to us.

 

Sure it would be nice to see some of those people you mention back with Trek but the likelihood of that happening is slim because they all have their own projects they are working on. Michael Piller is executive producer of The Dead Zone. Ira Stephen Behr and Rene Echevarria are executive producers of The 4400 which will be starting its second season in June, 2005. Ronald D. Moore is executive producer of Battlestar Galactica (as he was with the mini-series) that starts this month.

 

Star Trek is, and always will be, a cash cow for Paramount. I saw some figures that are a bit out of date now at IMDB that amazed me. Yes, Nemesis did not do as well as hoped at the box office. It brought in just over $43 million in the North American market. According to IMDB, US video rentals for Nemesis during the first 6 months brought in another $48 million.

 

I've never been able to find figures on DVD sales for the movies or the series box sets but I'm sure Paramount has made quite a tidy profit from them.

[HRH The KING 0]

Click For Spoiler

You don't like Enterprise so you deem it to be a failure.

 

Not at all. I think you'd be hard pressed to call ENT a success. It has the lowest viewing figures of any Trek show. It's a failure.

 

Because Enterprise is shown on a network, it's ratings are deemed by some to be a failure. If Enterprise were in syndication, it's current ratings would make it the highest rated sci-fi program. Most people I've spoken to think Enterprise would be far better off syndicated.

 

Well, again, that's the failure of Paramount too. Their handling of Star Trek in recent years has been nothing short of abysmal.

 

TNG, DS9 and Voyager were not cancelled.

 

I never said they were cancelled in the sense of being "pulled abruptly" from the screen. But in TNG and DS9's case, I believe both shows were ended too prematurely, when they still had many good years in them. VOY was always a weak show and it's end was merciful.

 

After TNG went 7 seasons (it almost ended after 6), it was decided that each subsequent series would be for 7 seasons.

 

I know, and IMO, this idea that all Trek shows MUST last seven seasons is nonsense. If a show is of very high quality, then keep it running for as long as possible.

 

If you have read any posts in the Enterprise forum regarding the possible cancelling of the series, you would have seen a number of responses by people saying they hope the series goes the full 7 seasons.

 

I have read them indeed. I've seen the pro-ENT sites, I've seen the anti-ENT sites.

 

They didn't just pull that number out of the air.

 

I never said they did.

 

Voyager was the first Star Trek series to appear on UPN and not in syndication.

 

A dreadful mistake. Like I've said before, the "premise" was good, but the characters? Terrible.

 

It's ratings were hurt because of the lack of coverage area of UPN. Even now, there are many areas in the States that don't get UPN. If people in those areas are lucky, they get Enterprise in the middle of the night on a FOX station.

 

That was probably a factor, but I think it was a poor show anyway, and that played a part too in it's weakness.

 

And remember, all television ratings are down compared to what they were before the 500 channel universe was brought to us.

 

That's right.

 

Sure it would be nice to see some of those people you mention back with Trek but the likelihood of that happening is slim because they all have their own projects they are working on.

 

I know....it's a real shame.

 

Star Trek is, and always will be, a cash cow for Paramount.

 

Therein lies the problem, they've OVER-killed Trek. Too many movies, too many shows. Oversaturating the market with Trek, just diluted it's quality.

 

I saw some figures that are a bit out of date now at IMDB that amazed me. Yes, Nemesis did not do as well as hoped at the box office. It brought in just over $43 million in the North American market. According to IMDB, US video rentals for Nemesis during the first 6 months brought in another $48 million.

 

NEM was a disaster at the box office. These are the figures:

 

Total Budget = $ 60,000,000

 

Worldwide Gross = $67,312,826

 

Overall profit = $7,312, 826

 

The biggest flop of any Trek movie ever released.

 

Now, you mention the $48 million home rental numbers, I haven't been able to find it's total, but remember this, ST:NEM had a promotional budget of around $30 million, so even taking that into account, then the movie only made around $20 million, and whatever way you look at it, that is abysmal.

 

I've never been able to find figures on DVD sales for the movies or the series box sets but I'm sure Paramount has made quite a tidy profit from them.

 

Perhaps, but the shows are made on a smaller general budget and even the other movies were more successful than NEM.