Is God responsible for natural disasters?

[BlueCrystal 0]

God is not responsible for natural disasters on this planet or the bad things that happen to people sometimes. We are all subject to fate. Could God prevent some of the disasters? Most likely he can but fate and faith go hand in hand. If I knew for certain I would survive climbing Mt. Everest or living beneath a active volcano I wouldn't have to have faith in God to survive and I would take him for granted and expect him to look after me. Daniel and I debated this issue many times and the world God made for us may be just child's play to what awaits us. There is a much bigger picture to fate than just one planet and her peoples.

[HRH The KING 0]

King, I think you're missing the point on the concept of "right" and "wrong" it doesn't matter what a society decides is "right" - there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong if our creation is merely the occurence of chance - what that means is that the definition can change with every whim of society.

 

It's true that definitions change, but this also applies to the Bible. It talks freely of slavery and killing homosexuals which are not acceptable in today's Western society. WEAREBORG was talking about Adam and Eve so this suggests a literal interpretation of every word. This is something I do not agree with.

 

If you don't believe in God that is certainly a valid opinion but what I have a problem with is your logic. You say that God can only exist if He behaves in a certain way - a way you decided a God should act. It's the why a god should act in a certain way that fails in logic.

 

Not quite. I don't believe in a god, and part of the reason I don't is the amount of suffering in the world that is NOT man-made, like diseases, conditions and disasters such as the one seen on Boxing Day. My problem was with people who believe in a god, and that's because I find it impossible for a person to believe in a benevolent god being who created the universe and allows massive amounts of people to die in their thousands. It's been suggested that your god have no control over natural law, therefore he would not be NOT all-powerful. It was mentioned earlier that this god being sent a plague of locusts to punish those who didn't believe in his, therefore he would NOT be all-good, and why would god have control over insects and not over a tsunami? Also, my problem is with suggesting that god will assist in the locating of the lost. Why should a person believe that? Why wouldn't a benevolent god have protected them in the first instance.

 

The lack of substantial and convincing arguments point to one of two things.

 

1) God allows people to die in their thousands and thus allows mass suffering and misery.

 

2) God does not exist.

 

I believe the second point is correct.

 

My logic is clear. I am using the example of the Asian Tsunami to say that a god does not exist, because if one did, it would surely have prevented such suffering. If for arguments sake, a god DID exist and allowed such misery, then IMO, that being is not worthy of worship since it will not intervene to protect people.

 

As for free will and choice - that was a decision your spirit made before you came to this Earth and the fact that you are here indicates you consented to come here. I do not expect you to believe or accept this. But I did expect you to try to understand the logic.

 

There is no logic in that. I did not consent to anything, and the fact I am here is proof of nothing other than the fact my parents conceived me.

 

What you have failed to answer is what you think the purpose of life should be if there was a god.

 

I've failed nothing. If there was a god, the purpose of life would be happiness. With an all-powerful god keeping watch over humanity, there would be no need for suffering.

 

What would be the point in us coming here and experiencing nothing but good times as you indicate would be the case if God did exist.

 

Well, why would anyone want to experience bad times? Do people alive today actively seek out pain and misery? Why would anyone want to inflict suffering on themselves?

 

What is the purpose? I know your answer will be there is no purpose because God doesn't exist. But at the same time you keep offering if God did exist He wouldnt' allow suffering so you must have some underlying concept of what the purpose of life would be if there was a God and that is what I'm trying to discover.

 

If god did exist, there would be no need for him to allow suffering since he would have unlimited power, so he could stop suffering from occuring. He wouldn't need to create evil, and humanity could live in peace and happiness. That would be the purpose of life under a god.

 

My basic idea, is that the disaster on Boxing Day occured because there is NO god, since I do not believe that a god being would allow such suffering. If it existed and if it allowed such suffering, then IMO it would not be worthy of worship since it will not help people in their time of need and misery.

 

Some natural disasters could be created by God in order to punish certain people, like when He sent the plagues on Egypt so that Pharoah would free the Jews. But some natural disasters just occur, thanks to the forces of nature that God made. So, I guess, those disasters could be considered to have been created by God indirectly, but I doubt God said, "Okay, I think a tornado will hit such-and-such trailor park in Arkansas this Friday at exactly 7:17 PM."

 

If he exists, I think it's more likely that He set down these laws of nature and then sat back and watched to see what would happen. Or, some would say, He sat back and let happen what would happen naturally.

 

But why? What would be the purpose? If he possesses wisdom and if he created time, then he presumabley created the past, present and future, so it would know what would happen if it sent a Tsunami rippling across the Indian Ocean. If he set the laws of nature and then sat back and does nothing to intervene when they cause massive disasters, then he is either NOT all-powerful because he CANNOT prevent them, or he's NOT all-good because he allows suffering and CAN prevent a disaster but chooses not to.

 

It is inherantly contradictory and does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

I do not buy this idea of grand plans, mysterious ways and great designs etc etc.

 

Jeez, so many quotes in posts, I can barely see where one begins and the other ends!

 

:(

 

First, was God responsible? No, I don't believe so.

 

I don't think it was responsible either. I think the fact that disaster occured is a pretty good indication that no god being exists. IF for arguments sake it did exist, then it WOULD be responsible for those deaths, because if as some people have suggested it created "natural laws", which in turn created the earthquake and tsunami, then it still bears the responsibility for the deaths in Asia, which are now as high as 23,000.

 

Take into account that just becasue God created the earth, universe, and all the natural laws, does not mean that he is responsible for the tsunami.

 

I beg to differ. If your god could control locusts, it could control water too.

 

If you remember from the Bible, Jesus was asked about why a tower had fallen and killed a group of people. Why did they deserve such a thing? Jesus pointed out that God did not send the tower to smite this group, but that time and unforseen occurrance befall all of us, God is not just sending things our way to get some sort of cruel pleasure out of it.

 

It can't be unforseen, because a god who created everything in the universe would have created time as well, so he would know what will happen in the future.

 

So because he knew that a group of people were to die then he would be responsible for those deaths.

 

Assuming he exists, since I believe he doesn't, then yes, those people died in unfortunate circumstances. If a tower fell on people it was either because of weaknesses in it's structure, or someone brought it down upon them. Those are human created occurances.

 

So then why is stuff, like wars, crime, disease, etc happening if God can prevent an occurrance or wipe such a thing from the earth forever?

 

He can, but what would that prove?

 

If your god existed, it would prove he DID exist. But IMO, if your god existed, there would be no need for those things. There would be no need for war because he would provide enough land and resources for humanity. There would be no crime because he would not create evil which is the cause of some crimes, and he would not create any of the other causes of crime. He would not create diseases for people to suffer from either. Why wouldn't he do those things? Because it's supposed to be benevolent. It can't be evil because it would have had to create that evil in the first instance and make it a part of himself.

 

The reason that the world is in such a state is because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve in Eden, instigated by Satan.

 

Which I do not believe occured. "IF" it did, then why would all humanity be forced to suffer because of the actions of two people? If you commit a crime, does that mean I have to stand trial for your actions as well, simply because we are of the same species? Why would a god allow "Satan" to do such things? If he's all powerful, he could destroy Satan with merely a thought.

 

It's a very good story, but IMO, that's all it is.

 

The issue behind the whole occurrance was soverignty, could man live separate from God?

 

But why? Why give people a chance to turn against god. It has no logic to it.

 

Why would god allow his own creation to reject him? It was said earlier that he sent a plague of locusts to punish those who rejected him. So they don't have frew will because anything your god disapproves of is punished most severely. Were the people of Asia punished on Boxing Day too?

 

You say later that there is more at work here than one planet and her people so what was so special about humanity? Why create them?

 

The answer IMO, is that a god being did not create humanity. No choice was given.

 

Even assuming your god gave Adam and Eve that choice, why should it apply to me? Do you allow other people to choose who you vote for at an election? Do you seek the permission of another person before you speak? If a person wouldn't allow others to do such things for them, then why should I allow Adam and Eve to make decisions for me?

 

The answer is that they made no such choice. They did not exist. There was no garden of Eden. No casting out of paradise. No Satan and no god.

 

So, God has allowed mankind to rule himself, with what result. Man dominating man to his injury, with God taking a laisse-faire approach sometimes, but also sometimes interveneing when it furthers His purpose.

 

Not all suffering is caused by man. A natural disaster like an earthquake and tsunami were not insigated by man. A child born with a terrible disability or condition was not necessarily the fault of man. They do kill each other in war, but that is for two general reasons. Evil, and resources. But if your god did not create evil and scarcity of resources along with other things like greed, then there would be no need for war. If god existed, he would have created these things. He would have created the causes of war and created the free will he gave to humanity. Therefore, he would be responsible.

 

Also, take into account that the Bible says that Satan has been evicted from heaven, and so now is on the earth, like a "roaring lion seeking to devour someone" and "misleading the entire inhabited earth." Satan also at this time is described as the "ruler of the world."

 

In myth, Satan was cast from heaven. What would be the purpose? Was god unwilling or incapable of killing him? It doesn't matter where Satan is and what he is doing. Your god is all-powerful and he could remove and destroy your Devil figure if he choose to. If he chooses not to, then he is NOT all-good.

 

So just because time and unforseen occurrance happen, it does mean that God is responsible. What we can look forward to is the future when God will step in and right the wrongs that we all have to deal with, like evil, sickness, and death. It's all in the Bible so I encourage you all to check it out.

 

When will god do that? How many more people have to suffer before he decided to step in and sort things out, things that cause misery, things that he created?

 

I encourage you to look critically at religion and question these contradictions.

 

God is not responsible for natural disasters on this planet or the bad things that happen to people sometimes.

 

If he existed, then he would be responsible.

 

We are all subject to fate. Could God prevent some of the disasters? Most likely he can but fate and faith go hand in hand.

 

No, they don't. As I said before, god would have presumabley created everything in the universe, including time, so "fate" would be visible to him. Why have faith in something that allows misery and suffering. What purpose does it serve other than an unproven hope that everything will be OK after you die?

 

And what would happen to me? I don't believe god exists but "if" I was wrong for the sake of argument, would I be allowed into heaven too? Or would I be punished simply for questioning his existence? Would I be punished for using my mind which god also created?

 

If I knew for certain I would survive climbing Mt. Everest or living beneath a active volcano I wouldn't have to have faith in God to survive and I would take him for granted and expect him to look after me.

 

If you decide to climb Mt. Everest or live beneath an active volcano, it has nothing to do with god at all. Those are choices you make yourself. If you knew for certain god existed beyond all doubt with proven and clear evidence and if he gave you assurances that he would protect you when you fell from Everest or when that volcano erupted, you'd be OK. But the fact is, in reality, you might not be OK, because he is not out there looking over you IMO.

[italiangirl 0]

I think something that needs to be considered here, is that NOT everyone has the same "definition" of God.

 

God means many things to many people, thus this makes your argument a bit too stringent.

 

God no longer fits into what the church dictates for us to believe.

 

We are in a time of free thought in regards to spirituality, and I know, for me, that literal interpretation of the bible literally can't be done.

 

Especially when most of it was put together 300 years after The Christ died, and there were "men" deciding what went in, and what went out.

 

Therefore, I think this argument really is at a stalemate.

 

No side is going to convince the other of the "rightness" of their believes.

 

And due to "free will", I find that very appealing. :(

Edited December 27, 2004 by italiangirl

[HRH The KING 0]

Therefore, I think this argument really is at a stalemate.

 

No side is going to convince the other of the "rightness" of their believes.

 

 

Yeah, I think this will go round and round in circles. B) :(

Edited December 27, 2004 by The King

[italiangirl 0]

And besides, you're enjoying this too much!! B) :(

[HRH The KING 0]

B) :(

 

True, true.