Strange question

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

If you had a vision of God come to you and ask you to kill someone to show your love, do you:

 

a. Kill the person to show your love for God and do his work.

 

b. Assume that God would never ask you to break one of his commandments and believe that the vision that came to you was the work of the Devil.

 

What would you do? :) :)

[MeeMaw 0]

Obedience is better than sacrifice. Look at the story of Abraham and Issac. Issac was the promised son and God asked Abraham to kill him. Abraham had the faith that God knew what he was doing, so he followed through with what God asked. His knife was on the way down when the angel stopped him. He made a way out for Abraham and Issac he'd make a way out for me too. I think it would be one of the hardest decisions I'd have to make though. There would have to have a purpose behind it, not just to find out if I loved him or not. He already knows I do. Abrahams' story is a test of faith, wheither or not he believed what God told him about his 'seed' and his being the father of many nations, not wheither he love God or not. On the other hand, we as people, do not do animal sacrifices for redemption of sin any more so there is no real reason to 'sacrifice' a loved one because God asked you to. He's already done the ultimate sacrifice by his own son's death on the cross, so why would he ask me to do what he's already done himself? He knows how badly it hurts when a loved one dies so there would be no reason what so ever to ask me to go through the same hurtful pain.

Just a thought...

Katy :)

Sorry if I was preaching... it is Sunday morning

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

Well, to be honest becuase of man's sinful nature, I think that sin would keep us from having a "vision from God". I'd also believe that God knows that me and death don't mix well, so ya might as well ask me to jump off a building! :) This is why I would be lead to believe it was something satanic. We don't do sacrifices anymore. God is of life, Satan is of death, thus, I would find it to be an evil vision.

 

Hope that answers your question. :)

[Sarah 0]

I would take that "special" medication that the doctors gave me!!!!

ahh help me I am hearing voices and seeing things that arn't there!!!!

just kidding, I really dont know what I would do.

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

Obedience is better than sacrifice.  Look at the story of Abraham and Issac.  Issac was the promised son and God asked Abraham to kill him.  Abraham had the faith that God knew what he was doing, so he followed through with what God asked.  His knife was on the way down when the angel stopped him. He made a way out for Abraham and Issac he'd make a way out for me too.  I think it would be one of the hardest decisions I'd have to make though.  There would have to have a purpose behind it, not just to find out if I loved him or not. He already knows I do.  Abrahams' story is a test of faith, wheither or not he believed what God told him about his 'seed' and his being the father of many nations, not wheither he love God or not.  On the other hand, we as people, do not do animal sacrifices for redemption of sin any more so there is no real reason to 'sacrifice' a loved one because God asked you to.  He's already done the ultimate sacrifice by his own son's death on the cross, so why would he ask me to do what he's already done himself?  He knows how badly it hurts when a loved one dies so there would be no reason what so ever to ask me to go through the same hurtful pain.

Just a thought...

Katy  :)

Sorry if I was preaching... it is Sunday morning

The story of Abraham and Issac is one of the points that I use as a reason why course a should be taken, of course you could also argue that the 'God' presented in the Old Testament is slightly different in the New Testament.

 

You also have to look at the ten commandments i.e. Thou shalt not kill, hence the question, is it right to kill if you believe you are told so by God? And would God actually tell us and let us carry out such an act? This is why I have such a problem with Joan of Arc being recognised by the Catholic church as I find it hard to believe that anyone who kills others (because of the occupation of France in this case) can be acting under God and Christ, who managed to free people without the need of a violent revolt. However, I believe WW2 can be justified as it prevented the extermination of the Jews, hence, war was necessary in order for man to create a better world for himself.

 

I know, perhaps this is a bit too deep for a Sunday discussion. :)

[Xeroc 0]

I don't believe in a God like that.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

TransporterMalfunction Posted on May 25 2003, 02:46 PM

You also have to look at the ten commandments i.e. Thou shalt not kill, hence the question, is it right to kill if you believe you are told so by God? And would God actually tell us and let us carry out such an act?

 

 

Believe it or not, this is a question I have actually thought about before. The "vision" aspect of your question is inconsistent with my beliefs.

 

As for it being acceptable to kill. I know many faiths interpret the Bible differently - which leads some to be conscientious objectors and others to enlist. It is interesting to note certain passages like proverbs 6:17 that God depises the shedding of innocent blood. What constitutes innocent blood? I guess I'd have to define that as not being the first offender.

 

If I understand what you're saying...you agree that it is okay to kill in defense of life; but not okay to kill in defense of freedom. I am really not familiar with the examples you refer to as God freeing people without war or violence. From what I've read the Old Testament records many wars, episodes of captivity, violence etc.

 

I believe that a person has the right to defend their own life, the lifes of family or others that can't defend themselves and to defend and protect freedom.

 

Would God tell us to kill? An individual vision wouldn't be necessary for anyone that already knows they have a right to defend themselves.

 

When discussing freedom I think it is important to remember that part of that freedom is the freedom to "worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience". If you want to expand your question...ask yourself..."would it be acceptable to take human life in order to preserve the right - the freedom - to teach your faith to your children?" particularly if you believed their eternal souls would be lost if you didn't.

[Klingonmike 0]

Since I don't believe in any gods If what you say happened to me I would think it was an old LSD flashback and ignore it.

[Stelfan 0]

I wouldn't believe it was God, and if someone really convinced me that he would kill me if I didn't do it, then I might have to think about doing it, regardless if that man was God or my grandmother... :)

[Abakai2003 0]

When I talk to God I'm in prayer.

When God Talks to me I'm Insane.

[shinzonfan 0]

There is a movie that deals with something very similar to this called Frailty. It is very interesting.

 

I'm not sure why any god would ask you to kill to show your love for it. If I had a vision that said it was god and wanted me to kill for it, I would have to assume that I have gone insane.

 

This is a weird question TransporterMalfunction. Have you had any visions that we should know about?

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

If I understand what you're saying...you agree that it is okay to kill in defense of life; but not okay to kill in defense of freedom.  I am really not familiar with the examples you refer to as God freeing people without war or violence.  From what I've read the Old Testament records many wars, episodes of captivity, violence etc.

Well I think all things have top be taken into context, for example, allowing the continuation of Hitler's regime would have led to a continuation of anti-semitism and racism in general, and I think it is safe to presume that the condition of the world is in a far better state than it would be had Germany won the Second World War.

 

However, the Bible of the New Testament shows the occupation of other countries by the Roman Empire, yet we do not see Jesus take up arms against the Roman Empire directly as Joan of Arc did against the British. Joan of Arc claimed to be receiving visions from God and took up arms, but that would seem to be in direct violation of what Jesus and the bible teaches. Had she been following the orders of God then surely she would have tried to make others follow the word of God as set out in the Bible and liberate her people through the Christian religion (as Christ did) rather than set about organising a military campaign.

 

Would God tell us to kill?  An individual vision wouldn't be necessary for anyone that already knows they have a right to defend themselves.

 

Of course that is an entirely different matter as defending one's self is an entirely different matter to premeditated killing. Plus, with the case of Joan of Arc, it claimed that the organisation of a military campaign,under God's name,which involved the deaths of many people on both sides is hardly defending one's self and hardly follows the example set out by Christ. Where as WW2 prevented the deaths of millions of people in the long term, to use a term from Star Trek, the good of the few outweighed the good of the many.

 

When discussing freedom I think it is important to remember that part of that freedom is the freedom to "worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience".  If you want to expand your question...ask yourself..."would it be acceptable to take human life in order to preserve the right - the freedom - to teach your faith to your children?"  particularly if you believed their eternal souls would be lost if you didn't

 

Well I think this is going a bit off the main topic but I will share my views anyway. I think that when you look at history you can many examples of attempts to end a certain religion, examples of this can been seen in Communist Russia and the Roman attempt to stop the christian religion. However, these attempts have failed and it is very hard to change someone's beliefs unless they want to. In other words, I am not sure that it is possible to stop someone from teaching/following their religion.

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

This is a weird question TransporterMalfunction.  Have you had any visions that we should know about?

Only the one that keeps telling me to do the Riverdance!

[Theunicornhunter 2]

TransporterMalfunction Posted on May 26 2003, 10:42 AM

Plus, with the case of Joan of Arc, it claimed that the organisation of a military campaign,under God's name,which involved the deaths of many people on both sides is hardly defending one's self and hardly follows the example set out by Christ. Where as WW2 prevented the deaths of millions of people in the long term, to use a term from Star Trek, the good of the few outweighed the good of the many

 

I've always been fascinated by Joan of Arc - although my knowledge of French history is limited - so I'll have to defer to you on those point. I coudn't say whether her "voices" were real or not; though I tend to think not. I do not mean to offend Catholic readers - I simply have a different belief about things. However, whether they were real or not is irrelevant to my main thesis on religious war which is: I think in most "religious" wars - the politicians simply appeal to the religious beliefs of the people to serve their own agenda.

 

However, the Bible of the New Testament shows the occupation of other countries by the Roman Empire, yet we do not see Jesus take up arms against the Roman Empire directly as Joan of Arc did against the British. Joan of Arc claimed to be receiving visions from God and took up arms, but that would seem to be in direct violation of what Jesus and the bible teaches.

 

You are correct, He did not take up arms - but that wasn't His purpose. He came to offer a different kind of freedom - something only He could do. Others could serve as political or military leaders. IMO, I don't think this means we don't have the right to defend ourselves from oppression.

[master_q 0]

This makes me think back to Star Trek Five (A Star Trek connection!).

 

“Do you doubt me?”

 

“I doubt any God who conflicts pain for his own pleasure!”

 

If God asked you to kill someone, then that entity is not God by my definition of who “God” is.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

[ddillard 2]

This makes me think back to Star Trek Five (A Star Trek connection!).

 

“Do you doubt me?”

 

“I doubt any God who conflicts pain for his own pleasure!”

 

If God asked you to kill someone, then that entity is not God by my definition of who “God” is.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

I agree. Any god that would ask you to harm someone is not God.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

This makes me think back to Star Trek Five (A Star Trek connection!).

 

“Do you doubt me?”

 

“I doubt any God who conflicts pain for his own pleasure!”

 

If God asked you to kill someone, then that entity is not God by my definition of who “God” is.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

I agree. Any god that would ask you to harm someone is not God.

I too agree, this was the films greatest message and even if it was poorly executed, I respect Shatner for daring to do it.

[ddillard 2]

This makes me think back to Star Trek Five (A Star Trek connection!).

 

“Do you doubt me?”

 

“I doubt any God who conflicts pain for his own pleasure!”

 

If God asked you to kill someone, then that entity is not God by my definition of who “God” is.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

I agree. Any god that would ask you to harm someone is not God.

I too agree, this was the films greatest message and even if it was poorly executed, I respect Shatner for daring to do it.

It was a bold move on their part...

[MeeMaw 0]

If you had a vision of God come to you and ask you to kill someone to show your love, do you:

 

a. Kill the person to show your love for God and do his work.

 

b. Assume that God would never ask you to break one of his commandments and believe that the vision that came to you was the work of the Devil.

 

What would you do?  :) B)

Okay, we must be stuck on the 'kill' part of this question. I've had a couple of days to think about it and I still stand by my first 'gut' response, but something keeps drawing me back to the original question. If God really needs me to 'kill' to prove/show my love then I wouldn't want to love that 'God'. My love, any love, that is freely given, is WAY better than a love that HAS to be proven. My husband didn't have to kill anybody to 'prove/show' he loved me, he just loves me, Trek and all. B) I think that's a Godlike love. IMHO.

An addional .02 cents worth

Katy

[joeybear 0]

God would never ask one of us to kill another, to prove our worth or otherwise, and I don't care what history says - man often invokes God's name in situations that have nothing to do with his will - love...

[Gotabite 0]

This is a very interesting topic for discussion. And I have enjoyed reading the responses. As for me I am a believer in a God who has never wanted us to kill each other. I believe hHE is deeply sadened by all of the taking of life that we have done, and are still doing through wars, because of anger, vengence,. abuse, hate, etc. The God that I know and try to serve would never ask me to do such a thing. And being the mental health professional that I am; if I heard a voice tell me it was God, I believe that I had suddenly become deluisonal; and that I was having hallucinations;......I'd call one of my psychiatrists friends and ask them to commit me to the closest mental hospital in order to protect my loved one.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I only caught a couple of minutes but I think the first episode of law and order addressed this question...strange.