mj 7 Posted November 27, 2004 I probably shouldn't say anything, because all of you seem to like it but I had tonight off ,as I worked the a.m. . I was disappointed ...I'm happy for you guys that liked it, though; wish I agreed! Heron 283983[/snapback] Please do not refrain from expressing a contrary opinion if that is the way you feel. You are not the only one who was not crazy about the episode, and some members actually do not like Enterprise as a Star Trek series. Please feel free to express your opinion ( within board rules, of course). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heron 0 Posted November 28, 2004 (edited) Thanks , Mj And I really WANT to like it..... Things like the *mind meld* being used as often as it is, detracts from how unusual it was in TOS. Why would Spock have had to explain it to Kirk if it had been known of and was so *everydayish* for that long? Plus, extracting the Katra was a huge ceremonial thing in Search for Spock; requiring Spock's return to Vulcan and the participation of the High Priestess, T'Pau , to transfer it. In Enterprise, it was attempted by someone who wasn't anything of the sort? No special ceremony? No big deal? Why the big deal of it , years later, then ? There was respect for putting humans in danger through vulcan ceremonial practices in TOS... look at Amok time...; look at *Search for Spock* where Bones chose the *danger*. These, supposedly religious , Vulcans on Enterprise would force the danger on Archer inorder to get what they wanted?? That's out of character... I just wish that they would try harder to adhere to things that aren't going to make some original fans say " hey...!!!" There is more....like T'Pol's mom acting even more human than Amanda; but I won't say more about it, because it isn't my intention to rain on anyone's parade ;and I didn't miss that there appear to be quite a few who liked it...and I'm glad for you guys. My opinion is really only of value to myself and I appreciate the *needs of the many* . The *one* may just have to stop watching if it doesn't improve rather than putting everyone else through my disappointment. Heron Edited November 28, 2004 by Heron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted November 28, 2004 9.0 I thought the pacing was down a little from Forge (searching for the artifact was overly drawn out imo) and the soundtrack seemed too repetitive but no big deal there. Click For Spoiler I was a bit put off with the Rebel factions over-emotionality; showing a emotional contrast between the Rebels and the (so-called) High council may have better served the point being made but hey war is hell right, it can't be easy for them knowing what their up against. At first I didn't get Archers harsh words to T'Pau, it seemed out of character with the way he was acting while he led T'Pol to the sanctuary but later I came to understand Surak is really the one pulling Archers strings, he musta let Archer 'loose' on her for reasons of achieving his goal. All in all a pretty good middle episode... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jefffitz 0 Posted November 28, 2004 I'm giving a 9 because it's an in-between episode that promised much but skimped on the delivery. It was very cool (don't get me wrong) but I think this story could be condensed an episode. I felt there was too much filler- why didn't they make this a 2 parter? If they are producing less episodes this season, then why are they wasting time stretching out story lines- this seems a most illogical practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Bolivar 0 Posted November 28, 2004 (edited) I am NOT HAPPY with the Vulcans. Ever since T'Pol started showing emotion last season we haven't seen ONE stoic Vulcan. Even the most rigid, stoic ones are all emotional now. Well gee, ain't that fantastic. Now we have two Earth's... one with round eared folk and one with pointed eared folk and stupid haircuts. Everybody is just plain out of character. Soval was completely rigid and boom... guess what... it was a SCAM! Most of the Vulcan's as of late show MORE emotion than the humans. Hoshi was well controlled even when she used by the Xindi. T'Pol can't keep from crying in EVERY damned episode. Sure, her case is different. But now it's like all of them are about to do the same freakin thing. Makes me angry. I don't even feel like I'm watching Vulcan's... The episode plot itself was fantastic... but we NEED at least SOME NORMAL vulcan's that are controlled at least a TINY bit more than the average human. If I had to rate this now... I'd give it a 5. But because I missed last weeks episode I will refrain from rating the episode and the next for now. I need to be able to put the episode in FULL context. Edited November 28, 2004 by Captain Bolivar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cougar 0 Posted November 28, 2004 Perhaps the Syrranites are less emotional, many theorize that any vulcan after ENT is a syrranite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theunicornhunter 2 Posted November 28, 2004 I watched it for the second time. Click For Spoiler Who was Syran, here's a nitpicky question. Surak mentioned him and then T'Pau mentioned Syran led them there to look for the (artifact). Well if Syran were a predecessor to Surak and it was Surak's Katra not Syran's that has been preserved - how exactly did Syran lead them there. And did anyone notice the "what goes around comes around scene" when T'Pau was telling Archer she wished he would co-operate with the procedure but regardles it would happen I was thinking of the epi Similitude and how Archer threatend to force Sim into the procedure. Did you catch the character development part where Trip tells Travis not to mention the rocky ride to Malcolm until after they're underway (because Malcolm gets motion sickness) And one more nitpicky question - the scene where they've found the artifact and the floor shakes and Archer says "let's go" - I listened to that several times - it sounds like a different actors voice - I know they read over a lot of those lines - did anyone else notice this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Takara_Soong 4 Posted November 28, 2004 I watched it for the second time. Click For Spoiler Who was Syran, here's a nitpicky question. Surak mentioned him and then T'Pau mentioned Syran led them there to look for the (artifact). Well if Syran were a predecessor to Surak and it was Surak's Katra not Syran's that has been preserved - how exactly did Syran lead them there. 284311[/snapback] Click For Spoiler Syran wasn't a predecessor to Surak. He was the Vulcan who was with Archer and T'Pol who was killed in the electrical sand storm although he gave Archer and T'Pol a different name when they met. Syran had Surak's Katra in him and then transferred it to Archer when he died. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Admiral Kirk 1 Posted November 28, 2004 IT was certainly watchable and I gave it a 8 but... Click For Spoiler I think these renegade Vulcans should be a little less emotional. I knew T'Pol's mother was going to die. That's just too much to pass up. These ENT Vulcans seem more like Romulans than Vulcans. It makes me wonder whay the Romulans left at all? Plus as I have stated before the previous are was a lot like ST II now we are inot ST III Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Data 0 Posted November 29, 2004 Click For Spoiler I have been thinking about how to defend this episode's presentation of Vulcans with more emotions than we expect. The truth is that Vulcans actually have stronger emotions than humans. Just that thru the centuries they learned to control them. Remember the decease that Spock's father got when he reached extreme old age. Also, remember the condition that Vulcans get every seven years. They are attempting to control their emotions. The emotions are still there. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Katra in Archer and how it directs the Vulcans in the right direction. It may also explain how Earth became the center of the Federation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surax 0 Posted November 29, 2004 Click For Spoiler As for similarity to the war on terror - I guess I missed it - but if TPTB are trying to portray Al Qaeda as innocent little misunderstood pacifists this is one viewer they'll lose. 283989[/snapback] They were not suggesting that Al Qaeda was innocent. They were suggesting that the Iraqi people were innocent. The only people America has gone to war with on faulty intelligence recently was Iraq. There was the issue of ties to Al Qaeda and the supposed stockpiles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T'Clau 0 Posted November 29, 2004 Things like the *mind meld* being used as often as it is, detracts from how unusual it was in TOS. Why would Spock have had to explain it to Kirk if it had been known of and was so *everydayish* for that long? Well, it's obviously distasteful to Vulcans at this time. It's taboo. It seems that it's only used in extreme situations even by the Syrrannites. I would hardly call it "everydayish." Plus, extracting the Katra was a huge ceremonial thing in Search for Spock; requiring Spock's return to Vulcan and the participation of the High Priestess, T'Pau , to transfer it. In Enterprise, it was attempted by someone who wasn't anything of the sort? No special ceremony? No big deal? Why the big deal of it , years later, then ? There was respect for putting humans in danger through vulcan ceremonial practices in TOS... look at Amok time...; look at *Search for Spock* where Bones chose the *danger*. These, supposedly religious , Vulcans on Enterprise would force the danger on Archer inorder to get what they wanted?? That's out of character... But the thing is... even though they attempted extracting the Katra, they failed. So, that would explain why it becomes (or re-becomes) a giant ritual only attempted by those adpet enough, like a High Priestess. As for "the danger" these still aren't the Vulcans we know. These are the beginnings of those Vulcans. They haven't been exposed to Surak's Katra yet. Syran has had it. I believe that Surak will be a calming (less emotion and more structure/ceremony) influence on the Syrannites and eventually on all of Vulcan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heron 0 Posted November 29, 2004 (edited) Well, it's obviously distasteful to Vulcans at this time. It's taboo. It seems that it's only used in extreme situations even by the Syrrannites. I would hardly call it "everydayish." - - - - - According to T'Pau, it had never been done. The vulcan on Enterprise acted as if it were something that she knew how to do ??; even the High Priestess , T'Pau, questioned her own abilities in this regard. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ But the thing is... even though they attempted extracting the Katra, they failed. So, that would explain why it becomes (or re-becomes) a giant ritual only attempted by those adpet enough, like a High Priestess. As for "the danger" these still aren't the Vulcans we know. These are the beginnings of those Vulcans. They haven't been exposed to Surak's Katra yet. Syran has had it. I believe that Surak will be a calming (less emotion and more structure/ceremony) influence on the Syrannites and eventually on all of Vulcan. 284618[/snapback] - - - - - - Her explanation for failing was that Surak didn't want be be removed; not that she wasn't adept. But, yes, they are supposed to be earlier versions of vulcans. I still wish that they hadn't included aliens on the ship... It just doesn't make sense. Aliens are *old hat* on Enterprise and no one is in the least bit in awe or startled...but centuries later, we're in awe of what we discover? It is out of sync. A long ways back, I had said that it might be interesting if a prequel , explaining things that may come up later in TOS might be interesting. By that, I meant maybe seeing how *Companion* originated on the planet prior to Cochrane's landing; or how Flint received his gift and ended up living on another planet as a reclusive genius or how the Organians came to shroud themselves as a static society when actually incredibly evolved or how the Zetarians ended up as a life force containing the minds of the last survivors of a planet;helplessly existing in space ; looking for a way to live out their lives...got into that circumstance... or how Charlie X came to be taken in by surrogate parents...etc. It's something that wouldn't require a crew; just many an amazing story to precede not violate what came thereafter. It's like a shelf full of books with empty pages just waiting to be written on with rich stories of cultures that will be discovered in later times. THAT's what I hoped for. We've heard a lot of conjecture between the crew members on Kirk's Enterprise; but wouldn't it have been neat to SEE some of the things as well? How about seeing earth at the time of Khan, before he was frozen? Some of that may be happening within the Dr. Soong episode, in some form. What about an episode showing how Parmen and his people landed on earth and Parmen's fascinaton with Plato made him try to emulate a society based upon that era, when they finally found a place to reside? There are endless possibilities.... But a new *first crew* was not what I had in mind...ever. Since a new *first crew* is what we have... I am hoping that SOMEHOW, the things that I was hoping for can still come to pass in some form. The return of Captain Kirk AS HIMSELF...not evil, not a duplicate and not a relative.. is a first step. Through his eyes, the past and the future might have a bridge; and maybe, some of the stories, above, would be possible. How fun would it be, if Kirk was able to enlighten them in a Gary Sevenish fashion? ....I am hopeful Heron Edited November 30, 2004 by Heron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptQuick 0 Posted December 1, 2004 Click For Spoiler Well I found the episode to be good on the whole but a little uneven. I agree that the Vulcans are still too emotional. Soval's probably the best of the bunch (sometimes his stiffness closely approximates Spock's). I'm hoping that the outcome of the third episode motivates them to become less so. Other thing that annoyed me, I kind of wished that T'pau had an accent, since she had so deep of one in TOS. I did the like the death scene with T'pol and T'les, thought it was beautifully done. T'pol had been struggling to keep her emotions in check the whole episode, when T'les died, it was the breaking point. I'll give it a seven. A decent follow up to the best episode of the season so far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WEAREBORG4102 0 Posted December 1, 2004 I give it an 8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunderfish 0 Posted December 3, 2004 Just so good - I am loving learning more about my favourite culture. Hoping that by the end T'Pol has realised what it means to be Vulcan and gets back to being one. T'Pau was pretty well cast - but Soval is still stealing the show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trek_dude 0 Posted April 26, 2005 (edited) 8.5 - i thought it was great , i thought last weeks epsiode was better but this was still bloody good. I am pissed with the the Vulcans that ordered the Bombing , what a bastard - can't wait for the final part Edited April 26, 2005 by trek_dude Share this post Link to post Share on other sites