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welfconfed

Romulan emotions...

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Why is it that Vulcans were so unable to control themselves that they, as a race, had to repress all emotions in order to survive, and yet the still very passionate Romulans have prospered?

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Maybe the Romulans realized that emotions and passion are something that can fuel without necessarily destructing and also that logic and emotions do not conflict but supplement each other if both are balanced. I think that Romulans successfully embrace both reason(logic) and passion, kind of embrace them into something one. That's why they prosper.

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But, if the Romulan balance between passion and logic is not destructive and is instead benefical and (dare I say) logical, then would it also be accurate to say that the Romulan view is ultimately a more 'logical' reaction to emotionalism than Vulcan self denial.

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Of course. Self-denial can hardly be something reasonable. If Vulcans were not denying that emotions are a natural thing for a creature and that going against the self instead of understanding it is a far better way to progress, I think they would achieve more than they did. In this sense Romulan view in my opinion is indeed quite more advanced reaction to emotionalism.

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Since, by your own words, the Vulcan way of life is not based in reason and is an impediment to their progress, would it be fair to say that Vulcan 'culture' (ie. Vulcan logic) is a mental disorder?

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I've learnt to suppress all my emotions, now doctors want me to attend counseling and take anti-depressants!

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I've learnt to suppress all my emotions, now doctors want me to attend counseling and take anti-depressants!

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If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that you need the help that they suggest?

 

Has your suppresion of emotion created additional problems in your life?

 

and (in the interest of keeping the thread on topic) as someone going through this, what are your views on a whole planet in such a situation?

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I must say that my situation is the opposite as ARMS', but with the same results. I am extremely emotional (my father likes to use the word "passionate"). Since I feel things so deeply, I also react extremely passionately. Any little thing causes me to become very miserable. The counselor at my school wants me to attend counseling and other things too. I believe the Romulans may have reached the "Golden Mean": the balance between logic and emotions. I offer a quote from STVI, by Captain Kirk, "You're a great one for logic. I'm a great one for... rushing in where angels fear to tread. We're both extremists. Reality probably lies somewhere in between." This gives a lot of strength to your argument, James. Spock does not disagree when Kirk calls him an extremist. I do not believe that it is a mental disorder, but just an extremist mindset. And yes, extremist do tend to be less logical. How ironic, that the most logical way of life is to focus less on logic! Is TSonofvulcan reading this?

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Like I asked of ARMS, do you think you need the help that they have offered you?

 

Stephanie, if you will forgive me for being so forward, you are an exceptionally intelligent and passionate young woman, who I have no doubt will achieve great things, but at your current age you lack the experience to bring your intellect and passion into balance.

Everyone, to varying degrees of difficulty, goes through this very stressful time of intellectual, emotional, and physiological transformation.

(In other words, anyone who thinks it's easy to be a teenager either hasn't done it yet or is to old to remember.)

There is no shame in excepting the 'logic' of your (very temporary) situation and taking advantage of the information and wisdom of someone who has more experience. It is no different than the Vulcan or the Romulan student that is mentored by a master.

 

I enjoyed your use of the 'extremist' quote from "The Undiscovered Country", it's one of my favorite scenes in the movie.

 

Another one to remember is when Spock tells Valeris:

"Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom Valeris, not the end."

 

As for TSonofvulcan, if he read it, I have no doubt that he would find some reason to disagree with it. :frusty:

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Since, by your own words, the Vulcan way of life is not based in reason and is an impediment to their progress, would it be fair to say that Vulcan 'culture' (ie. Vulcan logic) is a mental disorder?

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I wouldn't go that far so to judge it that way. Vulcan life is based on reason but an incomplete (or I'd rather say unmindful) approach to reasoning. The "reason" we mentioned a few posts above embraces more sides of the bigger picture by acknowledging many ways; while Vulcans chose to believe that only one way is the true and relevant. I'd name this culture poor and incomplete instead.

 

Another thing I am curious of - why Vulcans chose to supress or discard emotionality? Perhaps something from their history or background events that lead to creating this ideology?

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Vulcans 5,000 years ago did not deny the existance of their emotions. However, they did look for ways to control and eliminate them while the Romulans did not.

 

You're statements that Vulcans denied the existence of their emotions is simply untrue. Surak knew it would take generations to remove emotions from the Vulcan psyche (if this was even possible).

 

It is equally untrue to say that Romulans reject logic. Let's face it, Romulan ploys and strategies require a high degree of logic to understand. They simply don't let logic be their guiding force whereas the Vulcans do.

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Vulcans 5,000 years ago did not deny the existance of their emotions.  However, they did look for ways to control and eliminate them while the Romulans did not.

 

You're statements that Vulcans denied the existence of their emotions is simply untrue. Surak knew it would take generations to remove emotions from the Vulcan psyche (if this was even possible).

 

What is meant here, is not denial of the existence of emotions, but of their importance.

 

Surak knew it would take generations to remove emotions from the Vulcan psyche

 

Yet that is the thing I cannot understand - why?

 

It is equally untrue to say that Romulans reject logic.  Let's face it, Romulan ploys and strategies require a high degree of logic to understand.  They simply don't let logic be their guiding force whereas the Vulcans do.

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I agree. Romulan value strategy and the game of mind and without logic this would be impossible to be a good strategist. As for the guiding force, for Romulans it is "Mnhei'sahe" (a code of honor which at times is translated as "The rulling passion"). Perhaps this brings some confusion that Romulans are lead mainly by their emotions. Yet (IMO) this is not quite so, they are guided by both.

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Since, by your own words, the Vulcan way of life is not based in reason and is an impediment to their progress, would it be fair to say that Vulcan 'culture' (ie. Vulcan logic) is a mental disorder?

280527[/snapback]

I'd name this culture poor and incomplete instead.

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Given the Vulcan's 'superiority complex', I'm certain that they would rather their culture be thought mad than 'poor and incomplete.' :frusty:

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I am not saying Romulans are ruled by their emotions- quite the contrary. They use a balance of logic and emotion to accomplish their ends with maximum efficiency. As for the Vulcans, like I said before, they are just extremists. The Romulan party just had slightly more clarity at the time of the division.

 

As for your question, James, yes, somedays, I do believe I need help. I do have stress, and yes, sometimes I let my heart rule me instead of balancing it with my head. I just think that counselors go overboard or focus on all the wrong things. That might be people's problem when it comes to Romulans- they might see them as only trying to be opposite as Vulcans and overlook the ver logical aspect. Thank you for the compliments, and as for your comment about inexperience, I am in denial. :frusty:

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Sorry for the lateness of my reply.

 

 

I was born a VERY emotional person, as a result people often bullied me, causing an emotional tangent of despair.

Over the past few years i've worked hard at understanding the nature of emotions, therefore better enabling me to suppress them.

 

Thankfulness - Is not felt, but conveyed, in the best interests of others.

 

Envy - Is simply a survival tool, to ensure that YOU do not become exstinct. (see fear)

 

Disgust - Is another survival emotion, i feel it rarely and briefly, i control it by the realisation that as an intelligent lifeform, i know what is dangerous, and any irrational disgust is dismissed.

 

Worry - Often is counter productive, and is for some reason (i do not yet understand why), i have eliminated it.

 

Kindheartedness - Is yet another survival emotion, and is acted on, rather than felt..

 

Stress - Can be useful to an extent, too much is harmful, but has persisted despite my efforts.

 

Boredom - Unfortunately persists..

 

Sadness - Felt rarely.

 

Loneliness - As social animals, we are driven to seek others, i have mostly got rid of it..

 

Bravery - Has always been like a reflex to me.

 

Paranoia - Has always been like a reflex to me.

 

Optimism - Rarely felt...

 

Stubbornness - Work in progress

 

Fear - I no longer feel it, but if i am in any real danger, my higher brain shuts down whether i like it or not, and brute force is used as neccessary, afterwards it simply seems like a dream.

 

Anxiety - Disappeared very quickly..

 

 

There is a down side;

 

Funny enough, every 22- 28 days i loose all control of my emotions and to an extent my actions.

 

I do not recommend this to anybody..

Edited by ARMS

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Thank you for the compliments, and as for your comment about inexperience, I am in denial.  :lol:

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That's one of the advantages of inexperience. Until you gain experience, you can hardly be expected to fully appreciate your current lack of experience. :shocked:

 

 

ARMS, surely you see the inherit contradictions of your statement. First you explain that you are a naturally passionate person that has been emotionally hurt by others and to protect your self from the pain you have studied your emotions, most of which you have labeled as survival tools, and learned to suppress them.

You go on to say that your emotional denial leads to emotional instability.

 

In your attempt to protect your self from others, you are hurting yourself far more than any of those people ever could.

You not only suppress your emotions, you suppress your true self.

 

Being a person that experiences your emotions so deeply, it can be like trying to swim a vast sea, and with the 'storm of past pain' churning that sea, causing explosive waves of anger and despair to wash over you, it is understandable that you would shut your eyes and just try to tread water rather than attempting the seemingly impossible task of reaching some distant shore of emotional stability.

 

(Drug use , alcohol use, and other forms of self abuse are distractions that people use to 'shut their eyes' from their own painful reality.)

 

You can not just stay above water forever, as your episodes of emotionalism demonstrate, emotional and physical fatigue are taking their tole on you.

 

You must swim through that sea of emotions, and along the way if others offer you a life jacket, so much the better.

 

(please forgive me for 'waxing poetic' :congrats: )

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Well said.

282013[/snapback]

 

 

Thank you. :nono:

 

...and in the interest of keeping the thread (some what) on topic, most of what I said would also apply to our Romulan and Vulcan friends as well. :nono:

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I like poetry. A lot. No need to ask for forgiveness. Your analogy is good- I know I have heard lots of people say the same thing... a bit less eloquently. The Vulcans would probably be in ARMS' situation. The Romulans... I cannot really see how it applies to them. I know that I personally am the opposite end of the spectrum, for those "waves" frequently pull me under despite what I do to try to stop them (eg: burying myself in my books and the Internet, shoving other people away, self-harming). If your analogy were to hold true, the Romulans would be vastly closer to my end of the spectrum, but they are still not "drowning" to the extent that I am. I do know that the Romulans are slightly xenophobic, but I honestly cannot think of anything else right now (then again, I did just wake up and I have to go to school in 43 minutes).

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I also enjoy poetry. (I'm just not very good at it. :nono: )

 

I believe that, for Human, Romulan, or Vulcan, it is the same situation. Only the reaction to the situation varies.

 

The Vulcans have not only shut their eyes as they tread water, they refuse to admit that the sea of emotion is more than a puddle.

 

The Romulans have only achieved a level of stability by facing the reality of the situation and made it to shore. (or at least have the shore in sight)

 

Why the Romulans and not the Vulcans, quite simply, because of the circumstances surrounding the split between the two races.

 

The Romulans were stuck in close quarters during their journey to find a new home world, so they were forced to deal with their own emotions and those of their ship mates. It was a matter of life and death.

 

 

I don't think you are so radically different from ARMS, your methods of dealing with your emotions in a way are only attempts to tread water.

 

Some times the best way to control your emotions is to accept them.

 

You have every right to feel how you feel.

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The Romulans have only achieved a level of stability by facing the reality of the situation and made it to shore. (or at least have the shore in sight)

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I think it is the journey that also matters, not only reaching the shore. What I mean - you mentioned the split of the two races, where Romulans chose to be basically left on their own and that way they also had to face the sea - but unsupported by the former beliefs and ways of swimming through it. They chose to accept the sea instead, as they realized the importance of the journey itself as much as that of of reaching the shore. And maybe the first most important step to actually create a true new beginning, a whole new civilization that will last, is to realize and accept who you are. If they haven't firstly reached emotional balance from this realization, the sea would have crushed them.

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I couldn't agree more Tern, in fact, you have hit on what I believe is the central truth upon which everything else I mentioned depends: The first and most important step is to face the sea of your emotions and embrace the journey.

It is a journey not only to emotional equilibrium, but to your complete self, the true you. Passion directed by logic, logic driven by passion.

 

In regards to the Romulans, this was the great turning point that allowed them to forge a new civilization and survive as a race. When we consider the emotional upheaval that their experience on Vulcan must have caused, emotional balance is quite an achievement indeed.

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Yes exactly, I believe the same. Whether it will be the microcosmos of an individual or the macrocosmos of a race or society, the way is identical if we see it from this point.

 

I believe the "journey" of the Romulans is also a symbol of a journey towards discovering the core; and their progress and achievements as a race would point to how far they advanced on the spiritual step as well. This if we look at things not only from a single but from multi-sided (or deeper) philosophical perspective. I feel there is a lot to discover.

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The unity of the 'micro' and the 'macro' as different aspects of the same experience, I believe is one of the most fascinating things about Romulans.

(If you haven't already, I suggest reading and/or contributing to our other threads Romulan Honor, and An Empire Divided.)

 

I also believe that the "Romulan arrogance" that we see in some episodes is really just the frustration of dealing with emotionally unenlightened and in some cases destructive races.

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I like the metric system. I find it so much easier. Dang America not using it...

 

As for your comment about arrogance, hear, hear! We Romulans of course have the "superior intellect." Pathetic other beings...

 

:nono::nono: :(

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I can't say I've read all the posts, but here's my two cents...

 

The Vulcan and the Romulans are two breeds of the same species, as we already know.

 

Maybe it's that both breeds found different "correct" answers that suited their needs. For the Vulcans, it was logic and the denial of emotions. For the Romulans, it was strength through emotion. Neither one is absolutely right... Vulcans, being unemotional, leave themselves open to being the prey of others. The Romulans, being not only emotional, but rather violent, might anger another powerful species, risking war and even complete defeat.

 

As I see it, both paths lead to something better, but at the same time reject something which can be important sometime down the road.

 

On the other hand, they both have shown great intelligence with their actions. The Vulcans decided to form an alliance with Earth, with would ultimately protect them. The Romulans expanded very quickly, but decided to stop and stay where they are, rather than continue expansion and risk the wrath of a species which might prove to be more powerful then they are.

 

In both cases, they've shown a great deal of not only intelligence, but also luck.

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Eleven days since last post. I am ashamed... B) But Wishfire makes a good point, and one I think we cannot ignore. Was logic the right way for the Vulcans, and at the same time passion the right way for the Romulans? That is logical because of their situatuations now, but what about the millenia ago when the separation happened? They were both on the exact same path, so was it still right for them to turn opposite ways? Are there two possible answers for x in this equation? Something to think about; thank you, Wishfire...

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