ragingtarg 0 Posted October 11, 2004 (Possible spoiler alert) I just about ran to the bookstore to the get it the day it was out here. I finished it in two days, and have re-read it countless times. As for the book -- I loved it. It was brilliant. The coverage of the Tomed Incident -- in a very fair and partial manner, mind you, not one that's Federation-glorifying and all that -- was spectacular, as well as the underlying political themes. You don't get all that on a made-for-TV episode, only the usual exploration, discovery and then destruction. David George has laid the foundation for a whole new plotline -- the Federation-Romulan relationship. I can easily see this one novel growing to several books covering this important period in the Federation's history. After all, we know that the Federation and RSE were sort of on the same side against the Klingons in the TOS movies (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here), because there was some sort of a Romulan official at some sort of meeting. And then, the next thing you know, the Federation and the RSE are on tenterhooks, and heading into a Cold War. Maybe even a movie. Hell, I wouldn't say no to a movie on this. But I want to see more on Demora Sulu and Harriman. What happens to he Enterprise after Sulu leaves? Half the ships with the name Enterprise have dappled with total annihilation, surely that others have too. But me? I'm just waiting for the other books in The Lost Era to come out. Or a bookstore clerk's gonna get it. =D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valeris 2 Posted October 11, 2004 I currently have six Lost Era books- are they making any more? And yes, I very much agree that a movie or book series or TV series would be excellent for the Tomed incident. Hmmm... writing is one of my strong points... Perhaps this does pave the way for a Federation-Romulan alliance, but remember that not many people know the truth. They mistrust Romulans even more now. And yes, a Romulan was at a Federation meeting against the Klingons in STVI, Ambassador Nanclus. But at the current point in Trek history, 70 or something years have gone by. I am not quite sure about the Romulans situation with the Federation now; I never got to see season four or afterwards in DS9 because Spike moved it to a time when I was in school. And the TV with the TiVo is not working. So... possibly... does anyone else have any ideas on this? What do you think would happen if the truth about Tomed were to be revealed now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 11, 2004 Hello, everybody. My name is David R. George III, and I actually wrote Serpents Among the Ruins. Poster welfconfed sent me a personal message and told me about this thread, then asked if I would like to add my two strips of latinum. Well, here I am. Let me tell you my intentions in penning Serpents. As always, I wanted to write a good, dramatic novel. In this case, I was handed the keys to the Enterprise-B, crewed by Captain Harriman and First Officer Sulu, and I was pointed toward the mysterious Tomed Incident. That's all I started with. Now, when I write, I genrally like to explore various themes. In this case, I thought the millieu in which I'd been asked to work provided a solid framework in which I could explore the gray areas of politics, diplomacy, brinksmanship, and terrorism. I also assumed that most fans, having heard that the Tomed Incident resulted in the deaths of thousands of Federation citizens and the isolationism of the Romulans, believed the incident simply to be a battle of some sort. I wanted to stand that on its ear. What I ended up with was a 115,000-word novel (short by my usual standards, but actually long for a "Star Trek" novel), with which I was pretty satisfied (it made the New York Times bestseller list, which made me very happy). I've seen several very negative reviews of the novel by a few readers, though, primarily because they dislike that I had the "good guy" (in this case, Captain Harriman) do something they consider immoral. In a way, the posters in this thread are saying much the same thing; some appear to like that the Federation was portrayed as duplicitous. Now, here's what I think might be missing from both of those analyses. The Federation is no more monolithic than the Romulan Empire, no more than any group identified by race. Not every Federation citizen is good, not every Romulan citizen is bad, and vice versa. People are indviduals, and their individual actions should be judged on that basis. In the case of Serpents, there are some Federation characters portrayed as basically being good (Demora Sulu, for example, and Amina Sasine), and some Federations characters portrayed as bad (Blackjack Harriman, for example). At the same time, we see good Klingons (Kage and Azetbur) and bad Klingons (Kaarg and Ditagh), good Romulans (Kamemor and Elvia) and bad Romulans (Vokar and Linavil). And when you get down to it, individuals themselves are often both good and bad. As far as the events of Serpents go, Captain Harriman formulated a risky plan to avert a war, and in so doing, save the lives of billions...billions of Federation lives, and billions of Romulan lives. Was what he did right? Did the noble end justify the deceptive means? For me, those are the central questions I wanted to raise, and which I left for the reader to determine their own answers. In Harriman's defense, he believed that the Romulans were going to go to war eventually, and he had good reason to believe that. The Romulans had illegally placed a base on Devron II, then later occupied a peaceful, unaligned planet. Harriman also knew that there were people like Admiral Vokar in the empire who believed in the superiority of the Romulans, and who wanted to wage war. Against Harriman, he ended up having to kill several innocent Romulans, as well as several guilty Romulans; further, he perpetrated a fraud on the whole of the two peoples, both Federation and Romulan. Was it worth it? Should he have found another way? Should he have sat back and allowed war to come, in which the impact on both sides would have been devastating? Good questions, I think, and not necessarily easy to answer. Anyway, I'm delighted that you read and enjoyed the book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valeris 2 Posted October 12, 2004 Hello. I am so honored to meet you, and thank you for discussing your book here. For the most part, I think you did achieve what you set out to do. For me at least, you did totally change the way I look at Tomed, and Romulans, Klingons, and the Federation in general. However, I agree with what you said about individualism. Looking back, I do realize that I was rather thinking of the Romulans and Federation as a whole, when really these only dealt with small groups of people. I feel guilty, hating conformity as I do, for thinking this way. Thank you for clarifying that. As for the questions you talk about in your last paragraph, you succeeded there too. I started this thread precisely because SATR raised fascinating questions that could not necessarily be answered. You are right in that a lot of it comes down to that question that has raised moral dilemmas across the centuries- "does the end justify the means?" There is no real "right" answer, but it is a fascinating topic for debate. Thank you, David R. George III, for writing such a wonderful book, then commenting on it for us. By the way, how can one actually get to the level where one can be published in the Star Trek universe? As someone who hopes someday to write and publish scifi/fantasy novels, I would appreciate any advice from a published author. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 12, 2004 Hello. I am so honored to meet you, and thank you for discussing your book here.271800[/snapback] It's my pleasure. I enjoy talking with readers and fellow fans. I also appreciate your kind words about Serpents. I enjoyed writing it. By the way, how can one actually get to the level where one can be published in the Star Trek universe? 271800[/snapback] Practice. That might seem like a glib response, but I don't intend it that way. It is my feeling that there is an art and a craft to writing, and like any other art or craft, it requires work and determination to advance. If you want to be a writer, then write. Commit to yourself that you'll write an hour every day, or ten hours a week, or two hours every Sunday, but commit to something and then stick with it. In my experience, the second most difficult thing for a writer to do is get started on a project; the most difficult thing for a writer is to complete a project. If you can get yourself doing those two things with regularity, then you will be ahead of most other people who claim to want to be writers, and you'll be well on your way. I'd also suggest reading a lot (which I'm sure you do). The same way that a painter can learn different techniques from observing, say, the brush strokes of a painting, a writer can learn a great deal by reading the writing of others. You should and will find your own voice, of course, but you can help yourself do this by reading. As for specifically writing for "Star Trek," the usual route is to become a professional writer first, then make proposals to the publisher. A different way, though, is to enter the Strange New Worlds contests, which have been occurring anually for the past seven or eight years. This is an anthology contest run by Pocket Books, open to all writers with, I think, fewer than three published works. If you can get a short story in there, you also stand a good chance of being allowed to make proposals of your own. If you're not familiar with SNW, check out the volumes on some bookseller site, and if you're really interested, pick one up, read it cover to cover, find the latest set of rules, and go to town writing "Trek" stories and mailing them in. Hope this helps. And you can call me David. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welfconfed 2 Posted October 12, 2004 (edited) David, I'm so pleased that you could join us. (To anyone who hasn't read the book, POSSIBLE SPOILERS, so run out and buy the book, read it and then come back and finish this post ) Aside from interstellar politics, one of the things that I found interesting in your novel is the long distance relationship between Harriman and Amina, as well as between Harriman and 'Black Jack', a relationship made even more distant in the latter case because the gulf is not one of light years but one of the human heart. The love of Harriman's life is a woman that he is rarely able to see more than once or twice a year, they must make due with what fate will allow them. Its easy to see why Kirk permitted himself only 'temporary' relationships and Picard emotionally isolated himself from others, its just too much for most people to love someone and know you can't really be together. "Black Jack" Harriman only regarded his son as a star fleet officer, and not a very competent one in his view. Capt. Harriman's attempts not to be the man his father was, conflicting with the influence that, undoubtedly, the old man had been in his life, made the Captain a very complex man. However, one of the most memorable moments in the book is when Demora lies to Harriman about his father's last words. The scene between Harriman and Demora is a powerful statement of their long friendship. When does the addition of "captain's Table" that features Demora Sulu come out? Have you any plans for future projects featuring the Enterprise B? Edited October 12, 2004 by welfconfed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 12, 2004 (edited) I'm glad you enjoyed the novel, James. For me, most good fiction is character-driven, and I think that is certainly true of "Star Trek" and its successors. I endeavored in Serpents to explore various relationships, and you hit on two of them. In particular, the difficult father-son dynamic between Blackjack and John was important (in my estimation) not only because it allowed me to explore such a relationship, but also because it help explained how the man we saw as captain of Enterprise in Generations could have believably achieved that position and behaved the way he did, and yet still be ultimately worthy of his captaincy. The long-distance but very deep romance of Harriman and Amina Sasine also provided me an interesting (I hope) dynamic to explore, and also permitted me to take the good captain where no other "Trek" captains have ever been taken, so far as I know. My Demora Sulu short story (and it ain't that short) will appear in the Tales from the Captain's Table anthology, due out next June. As for revisiting the Enterprise-B crew again, either under Harriman or Sulu, I'd think I'd like that, but I first have to finish the original series trilogy I'm penning. Thanks for the encouragement! Edited October 12, 2004 by David R. George III Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angela 1 Posted October 12, 2004 I noticed you were talking, Mr, George about the SNW contest. I too would love to throw in my own stories (trust me I wake up at 3am with the ideas) however, I can't enter the SNW contest, I don't live in the States or Canada. How now do I get involved in the Trek book 'verse?? Currently i am a fan fic writer (Currently working on a Stargate SG1 fic, but have worked on trek projects also) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 12, 2004 I noticed you were talking, Mr, George about the SNW contest. I too would love to throw in my own stories (trust me I wake up at 3am with the ideas) however, I can't enter the SNW contest, I don't live in the States or Canada. How now do I get involved in the Trek book 'verse??271920[/snapback] First, please call me David. (And what's your name? Nobody around here seems to want to sign their posts with their given name. ) Second, yeah, I'm aware that the Strange New Worlds contests are currently open only to residents of the United States and Canada (though not Quebec). The reasons for this come down to legality, as I understand it. At any rate, that unfortunately means that you won't be able to enter the contest. If you are interested in writing "Trek," though, then you always can dabble in fan fiction, as you currently do. If you want to write "Trek" professionally, then you really need to become a professional writer first, and then attempt to tackle "Trek." I know that's not an answer you probably wanted to hear, but it reflects the reality of the situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valeris 2 Posted October 12, 2004 Thank you, David. I regret that I cannot write or read as much as I want because of school, but I do as often as I can. And welfconfed, you are right about the interesting character relationships. That is one of my favorite parts in stories. I was fascinated by the scenes at the Algeron diplomacy table. I like seeing into the different groups' minds and how they think about the various events- Universe, Tomed, etc. Though I am not much a diplomat myself, well written arguements fascinate me. I like the tension build-up too. By the way, my given name is Stephanie. I hate it though, so I use the internet to choose a name that describes my personality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welfconfed 2 Posted October 13, 2004 By the way, my given name is Stephanie. I hate it though, so I use the internet to choose a name that describes my personality. 272037[/snapback] If you wish, I will continue to call you Valeris, but I think Stephanie is a beautiful name. If you prefer, you can call me James. You brought up a interesting point, the diplomatic chess game was just as fascinating as the more action packed scenes. I would have loved to have seen the Algeron scenes expanded, but I don't believe that the average reader would have been happy with a book that focused only on a bunch of diplomates sitting around a table. :( David, I hope that you will permit me to go a little off topic for a moment. As someone who has written both Trek novels and an episode of a Trek T.V. series, (The Voyager episode "Prime Factors", season 1 episode 10) I was wondering if you would compare the two experiences? Were you satisfied by the final episode? Any interest in future T.V. work? Enterprise perhaps? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valeris 2 Posted October 13, 2004 You can call me whatever you want; a name is only a name, after all. And I have been called worse than my name. :( I agree with your point about a book that is only diplomacy. Even I would get bored with that. But then, I do not like things that are all action either. SATR had a good combination of both. I have to leave for school, I will expand more later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 13, 2004 Thank you, David. I regret that I cannot write or read as much as I want because of school, but I do as often as I can.272037[/snapback] Nothing to regret about school. I'm sure you're doing plenty of reading and writing, just not involving "Star Trek" at the moment. And welfconfed, you are right about the interesting character relationships. That is one of my favorite parts in stories. I was fascinated by the scenes at the Algeron diplomacy table. I like seeing into the different groups' minds and how they think about the various events- Universe, Tomed, etc. Though I am not much a diplomat myself, well written arguements fascinate me. I like the tension build-up too.272037[/snapback] I'm glad you liked these scenes. I did too. One thing I made sure to do was to portray even the various negotiating teams as not being monolithic either. On the Klingon side, we had Ambassador Kage, working for Azetbur's goal of prolonged and stable peace, which was also the goal of Romulan Ambassador Kamemor. At the same time, there were also a Klingon (Ditagh) and Romulan (Vreenak, later in life featured in the "DS9" episode "In the Pale Moonlight") who were working against this goal, seeking instead a position of superiority for their respective people. (The Federation team was not as fully explored, since the UFP point of view was being shown through Captain Harriman.) By the way, my given name is Stephanie. I hate it though, so I use the internet to choose a name that describes my personality.272037[/snapback] If you prefer me not to use your name, then I won't use it, but like James, I think Stephanie is a lovely name. You brought up a interesting point, the diplomatic chess game was just as fascinating as the more action packed scenes. I would have loved to have seen the Algeron scenes expanded, but I don't believe that the average reader would have been happy with a book that focused only on a bunch of diplomates sitting around a table. 272251[/snapback] I try to include a balanced mixture of drama and action. If anything, I think I tend to favor drama over action in my writing. As someone who has written both Trek novels and an episode of a Trek T.V. series, (The Voyager episode "Prime Factors", season 1 episode 10) I was wondering if you would compare the two experiences? Were you satisfied by the final episode? Any interest in future T.V. work? Enterprise perhaps?272251[/snapback] Writing for television and writing a novel are very different experiences. Writing for television is far more collaborative, and the writing is essentially much more spare; a fifty-six-page teleplay, filled primarily with dialogue, requires a different discipline and mindset than, say, a 135,000-word novel. The schedule in television also tends to be much more demanding, or at least much more condensed. I like both forms of writing. I will say that the five-page story I cowrote for "Voyager" remains probably the most difficult writing I've ever done. It didn't take me as long to write as, say, the thirty-four-page outline for Twilight, or the 200,000-word novel itself, but it was excruciating. In fact, my narrative outlines are always the most difficult part of my process. As for the episode itself, I was largely pleased with how it came out, although I might have done some things differently too. With a feigned Vichy accent, Jeri Taylor once said to me, "And what is a Frenchman doing in that part of the galaxy anyway?" I am interested in other television work, but I haven't yet had the time to pitch to "Enterprise," although I continue to consider doing so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valeris 2 Posted October 14, 2004 You can call me Stephanie, or Valeris, or whatever flys your warbird. It is probably not as bad as... never mind. *~*SPOILERS*~* (I should have done this a lot earlier...) That was one thing that you did exceptionally well- not stereotyping. I know that I for one did not expect the Federation to be the ones responsible for Tomed, even if it did only kill a few people after all. Vokar and Linavil are pretty much the stereotype that Federation people expect, but some of the others, like Kamemor, added a whole new angle. James and I were commenting on how Romulans needed to be shown less as just "the bad guys" and more with a personal side- the Romulan that cares for his family, that wants what is best for his Empire. Not that I minded Vokar and Linavil. They fascinated me; they were two of my favorite characters. I tend to favor drama too. Anyone can write about a phaser fight. It takes skill to write an intricate dance of words, with subtle meanings and traps, around a diplomy table, or something else. Not that I have contempt toward action, I merely prefer other genres. I did like the various scenes of the characters taking over Tomed though. That was a brilliant piece of strategy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welfconfed 2 Posted October 17, 2004 David, you have written for the post-series DS9 book line, have you any plans to write for the post-series voyager line? Can you give us any details about your TOS trilogy? Are you aware of any plans to expand the Star Trek line, perhaps with original creations of your own, like Peter David's New Frontier series? In regards to Jeri Taylor's comments: Another mystery solved. No wonder Picard spoke english with a British accent, all the French went to the delta quadrant. :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 18, 2004 You can call me Stephanie, or Valeris, or whatever flys your warbird. It is probably not as bad as... never mind.272474[/snapback] If the name Stephanie works for you, then it works for me. That was one thing that you did exceptionally well- not stereotyping. I know that I for one did not expect the Federation to be the ones responsible for Tomed, even if it did only kill a few people after all. Vokar and Linavil are pretty much the stereotype that Federation people expect, but some of the others, like Kamemor, added a whole new angle. James and I were commenting on how Romulans needed to be shown less as just "the bad guys" and more with a personal side- the Romulan that cares for his family, that wants what is best for his Empire. Not that I minded Vokar and Linavil. They fascinated me; they were two of my favorite characters.272474[/snapback] Thanks very much for the kind words. It's very important to me to attempt to draw characters as individuals, and not as stereotypes. For me, the most appealing aspect of "Star Trek," in all its incarnations, is its message of inclusion, acceptance, and tolerance for all. I did like the various scenes of the characters taking over Tomed though. That was a brilliant piece of strategy. 272474[/snapback] Again, thanks for the kind words. David, you have written for the post-series DS9 book line, have you any plans to write for the post-series voyager line?273473[/snapback] I have no current plans to write within the post-series "Voyager" continuity at the moment, but you certainly never know. Right now, though, I have my hands full with my TOS trilogy. Can you give us any details about your TOS trilogy?273473[/snapback] I can, but then I'd have to kill you. Actually, I'm in the nascent stages, so I really can't even offer hints at this point. But stay tuned. Are you aware of any plans to expand the Star Trek line, perhaps with original creations of your own, like Peter David's New Frontier series?273473[/snapback] I know of a few things going on in the "Trek" publishing line. As for my own plans, I am, as I've mentioned, busy with my trilogy. After that, who knows? I have had a thought or two about returning to the Enterprise-B, either under Harriman's or Sulu's command (or even both). Again, stay tuned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welfconfed 2 Posted October 21, 2004 (edited) Since this is the 'Romulan embassy' and the Romulans were so important to the story line of "Serpents Among the Ruins", I was wondering about your views regarding the Romulans and how you approach the task of writing Romulan characters. How did you 'fill in the blanks' of their culture and back grounds? Stephanie and I have written extensively on the subject of Romulans and Romulan culture (you may have read our threads 'Romulan Honor' and 'An Empire Divided') and we would love to hear any thoughts you may have. I'm curious, was the Tomed operation a product of only Star Fleet Intelligence or was Section 31 also involved? Was Captain Harriman an operative of Section 31? Edited October 21, 2004 by welfconfed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David R. George III 0 Posted October 25, 2004 Since this is the 'Romulan embassy' and the Romulans were so important to the story line of "Serpents Among the Ruins", I was wondering about your views regarding the Romulans and how you approach the task of writing Romulan characters. How did you 'fill in the blanks' of their culture and back grounds?274396[/snapback] I approach writing Romulan characters in much the same way as I approach writing characters of any species. While the fact that a character is a Romulan--or a human or a Klingon or whatever--can tell you some things about that character based upon the social and cultural milieu in which they were raised or in which they reside, they are still individuals. I think it is far more interesting to see differing viewpoints within the same society than it is to see a monolithic group of conformists. I liked being inside Gell Kamemor's head, for example, to learn that she considered the attitude of Romulan superiority of many of her people to be immoral. Far more interesting to me than all Romulans feeling that all other races were inferior to them. I'm curious, was the Tomed operation a product of only Star Fleet Intelligence or was Section 31 also involved? Was Captain Harriman an operative of Section 31? 274396[/snapback] There was no indication in Serpents that the Tomed operation was anything more than the brainchild of Captain Harriman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tanahu 0 Posted October 30, 2004 I'm not David, but I can answer two of yuor questions, welfconfed: David, you have written for the post-series DS9 book line, have you any plans to write for the post-series voyager line? Last time I talked to Christie Golden, she said she's the only author of the VGR-R for the forseeable future. Are you aware of any plans to expand the Star Trek line, perhaps with original creations of your own, like Peter David's New Frontier series? Not from David, but Dave Mack is writing a TOS-era series set on a space station named "Vanguard". Also, Michael Jan Friedman and Jeanne Dillard are launching the post-Nemesis TNG books (called "Second Decade" by editor Margaret Clark), and Michael A. Martin & Andy Mangels are writing the first two "Titan" stories. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DixonHill1989 0 Posted November 1, 2004 I have not read it yet but once I finish the books I am reading right now I will check it out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valeris 2 Posted November 6, 2004 All these books sound fascinating! I can see I will be busy for a while. I am currently reading A Time to Sow. For those of you who do not know it is the third book in the A Time to... series, which takes place between Star Trek: Insurrection and Star Trek: Nemesis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites