Undiscovered Country Spock quote

[xenexian 2]

This may have been covered before somewhere but as I watched again, "The Undiscovered Country", I found myself suddenly paying more attention to the scene on the bridge of the Enterprise when the crew, led by Spock, plays back the recording of the attack on the Klingon ship. The scene where Spock attempts to make sense of why it looks like the Enterprise fired on the ship when it was really the cloaked bird of prey. Now even though I have seen this movie more times then I can count, I realized that this scene wasn't really burned into my memory so most of what was being said was almost like hearing it again for the first time. Spock makes the statement that an "ancestor" of his was known to have said that, "When you have eliminated the possible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." For those others here who are Sherlockians, like myself, this quote is immediately recognizable as coming from one of Conan Doyle's "Sherlock Holmes" stories and is generally been credited to have been said by Sherlock himself. Is Spock inferring that he, on his human side, is related to Conan Doyle? I have never come across this tidbit about Spock before so I'm curious as to how this came to be and where this subject may have been broached before? Even in this fantasy world I find it fascinating to think that Spock would be related to one of my favorite authors who, gratefully, did exist.

[Airies 0]

In one of the books. And don't ask me which one it is cause I have hundreds. Spock goes back in time and either meets Doyle or Holmes. They may have made Holmes real. I can't remeber. It was a really good book and I read it again when that movie came out. But it's been a long time, I will look through my library and see if I can figure out which one it was. It was a good book though. Now I'm gonna go crazy till I figure it out.

[nik 0]

I would have to say that it means that Spock is indeed related to Doyle. I don't think that he would be related to Holmes. Though ST could easily have assumed Holmes was real, I believe that ST assumes that Holmes is fictional. I say this becuase he

is assumed fictional in the TNG episodes involving Moriarty ("Ship in a Bottle" and I can't remember the other one). Of course continuity could be violated here; I think the TNG episodes came after ST:TUC. It wouldn't be the first time.

[Airies 0]

^ Your right nik. It must have been Doyle. I even remember Spock playing a game of chess with him, in the book. I'm racking my brain about that book. It may take me awhile some of my books are packed but I will prevail! :superman:

[xenexian 2]

I would have to say that it means that Spock is indeed related to Doyle.

 

 

But where did the notion come from that Spock and Doyle are related? I had never heard of this before in any other episode. This was the first instance that I can recall that Spock's ancestry was even brought up, at least on the human side. Where's the connection?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

The notion comes from Spock at that very moment. (great observation btw!) It is possible a Vulcan ancestor said the same thing; doesn't it sound a little like Surak? I think so but if it's not a Vulcan then perhaps what happened was we witnessed yet another step in Spocks acceptance of his Human side; perhaps he meant 'ancestor' in the sense of 'all' humanity?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named 2]

This topic was actually addressed in an essay that was published maybe 6-7 years before The Undiscovered Country was in theatres. The title of the essay was "Was Holmes a Vulcan?" It was part of a book that was a compilation of various essays, short stories, etc. about sci-fi in general.

 

The conclusion was that, although Holmes had never been referred to as a Vulcan in any of Doyle's books (for obvious reasons), and that Doyle was obviously human, 1) it is possible Star Trek's writers wanted to make Spock a Holmes-like character and 2) it would be possible, maybe even likely, for Doyle to be an ancestor of Spock because of Spock's human half.

 

So the idea that Doyle could be related to Spock has been kicked around long before The Undiscovered Country.

Edited September 24, 2004 by lt_van_roy

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

:lol: Fascinating. Well done Van Roy.

 

I did a search using the keywords: Was Holmes a Vulcan?

 

Here is the #1 return...

 

http://home.cfl.rr.com/dscott8/spock.htm

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

It is possible for Spock's ancestor to have been Doyle...

but who knows... He is quite logical...

 

But he's probably not related to Dr. Bell whom Holmes is based on.

Edited September 24, 2004 by WEAREBORG4102

[xenexian 2]

Very interesting. I finally had the time to click the above link and check out the article. Now being a Sherlockian, I did have to read it with a bit of tongue in cheek but it was no worse that some of the latter pastiches of Holmes that have been written in the past 25 years, such a Holmes vs Dracula, or Holmes and Freud and Holmes actually being Jack the Ripper. Each has their points that make it very plausible, just as the above link will take you to a very good argument for Holmes being a Vulcan. But after reading the article and also realizing that Nicholas Meyer was the director and also a Sherlockian in his own right, if any inference is to be made from Spock's quote, I would have to say that somewhere in his lineage, such that it is, Doyle was a distant relative of Spock, and Meyer just wanted to use the laws of deductive reasoning in explaining how Spock could have surmised that a cloaked ship fired the shot. What better way to explain the situation then to bring the master of deductive reasoning into the picture. Meyer certainly knew the quote and inserted it into the dialogue and used the phrase, "ancestor", to explain how Spock could know about the phrase. In doing so, he also opened a can a worms by making the connection between the two characters. This will never be resolved, of course, but it is certainly fun to think about.