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Evidence for the Klingon debate

#1 User is offline   ussacclaim 

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  Posted 17 June 2004 - 03:49 PM

Well, I'm sure this has been addressed already, but it hit me one day so I thought I'd mention it.

The debate over the physical change of Klingons between TOS and TNG.

It just has to be the makeup thing. I have considered the two-species theory (or something to that effect) but I saw an episode that kills that idea.

In the TOS episode "The savage Curtain" they have Kahless in the TOS Klingon style. Then in "Rightful Heir" Kahless is the new Klingon style.

Again, just thought I'd mention it.
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Posted 17 June 2004 - 05:18 PM

Imo all Klingons are born with ridges, PERIOD.

During the time of TOS many of them (the ones we saw) were Klingons who opted to have cosmetic surgery done to remove the ridges so they'd look like Humans...

(that is the, "shameful thing" Worf means by; "they don't speak of", in Trials & Tribbulations)

...as part of some stupid ill-conceived plan* of deception against Humans that failed.

Perhaps they'd been unable to score a major victory against Humans since the time of Archer. The Duras family was probably behind the plan that used cosmetic surgery as part of the *plan. (<whatever it was, we don't know except for McCoys finding out about the alterations)

This post has been edited by Alterego: 17 June 2004 - 06:20 PM


#3 User is offline   Jeanway 

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 05:25 PM

I did notice how exceptionally large Worf's head was in TOS, :roflmao: it seemed to have shrunk later though. :roflmao: What was that about? :roflmao:

This post has been edited by Jeanway: 17 June 2004 - 05:26 PM

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  Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:26 PM

Alterego, on Jun 17 2004, 05:18 PM, said:

Imo all Klingons are born with ridges, PERIOD.

During the time of TOS many of them (the ones we saw) were Klingons who opted to have cosmetic surgery done to remove the ridges so they'd look like Humans...

(that is the, "shameful thing" Worf means by; "they don't speak of", in Trials & Tribbulations)

...as part of some stupid ill-conceived plan* of deception against Humans that failed.

Perhaps they'd been unable to score a major victory against Humans since the time of Archer. The Duras family was probably behind the plan that used cosmetic surgery as part of the *plan. (<whatever it was, we don't know except for McCoys finding out about the alterations)

Ah, but that still doesn't explain Kahless's non-ridge appearance.
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#5 User is offline   Tina 

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 05:33 PM

So does this mean we can expect that the Enterprise Klingons will have the ridges or will they follow the TOS tradition

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 06:55 PM

ussacclaim, on Jun 18 2004, 03:26 PM, said:

Alterego, on Jun 17 2004, 05:18 PM, said:

Imo all Klingons are born with ridges, PERIOD.

During the time of TOS many of them (the ones we saw) were Klingons who opted to have cosmetic surgery done to remove the ridges so they'd look like Humans...

(that is the, "shameful thing" Worf means by; "they don't speak of", in Trials & Tribbulations)

...as part of some stupid ill-conceived plan* of deception against Humans that failed.

Perhaps they'd been unable to score a major victory against Humans since the time of Archer. The Duras family was probably behind the plan that used cosmetic surgery as part of the *plan. (<whatever it was, we don't know except for McCoys finding out about the alterations)

Ah, but that still doesn't explain Kahless's non-ridge appearance.



Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out. :laugh: :bow:

Well I've said it before, Trek continuity isn't perfect; never has been.

Still, I'm open to any possibility someone may come up with to explain that one, if an explanation is never given it won't effect my love of Trek.

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 07:12 PM

ussacclaim, on Jun 17 2004, 03:49 PM, said:

In the TOS episode "The savage Curtain" they have Kahless in the TOS Klingon style.  Then in "Rightful Heir" Kahless is the new Klingon style.


In "The Savage Curtain", we see Kirk and Spock fight against and along side various historical figures.
However, as the Excalbian stated, they were 'representations' of those figures taken from Kirk and Spocks minds and made flesh by transforming other Excalbians.
The fact that the 'virtual' Kahless had no ridges only means that neither Kirk or Spock knew what the 'real' Kahless looked like.

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 07:32 PM

I was gonna say that too welfconfed but how could Spock not know Klingons have ridges? That's almost harder to swallow than T'Pol not knowing she was screwing up. This is why I want a TOS special edition with every Klingon sporting a nice bumpy forehead. But then Worfs statement in T & T's wouldn't make sense. :laugh: I guess Spock not knowing about them is the best we have.

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So does this mean we can expect that the Enterprise Klingons will have the ridges or will they follow the TOS tradition


Hopefully Tina, someday a story will be written which perfectly explains the ridgeless Klingons of TOS. For now I like the idea of them being surgical altered, what we need to know is why, what was the plan behind the alterations...?

#9 User is offline   WEAREBORG4102 

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 08:16 PM

I think it was makeup. There is a piece of evidence for this. If you watch the TNG episode where Barclay is injected with the antibody. You can see worf in his de-evolved form and you see the head with huge ridges.
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Posted 18 June 2004 - 08:56 PM

We know it was make-up. We know the real reason was lack of budget to make a more alien looking Klingon.

Now, in four series outta five Klingons have ridges. What we are trying to uncover (if possible) is a GOOD reason WHY in TOS they did not have them OTHER than budget restrictions.

Two possibility's I've heard:

1. Flatheads come from a different area of Kronos. Why haven't we seen them since, were they all killed off? (<that could work)

2. Volunteers were surgically altered for some (unknown) reason except in one case; in The Trouble with Tribbles, the flathead Klingon was shown to be a "spy" of sorts.

#11 User is offline   ussacclaim 

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  Posted 22 June 2004 - 04:53 PM

An explanation was given in a book (I know not canon) where all non-ridge Klingons defected to The Mist, a people that live in cloak, like the Aldeans(sp?) the people from "When the Bough Breaks"
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#12 User is offline   He Who Shall Not Be Named 

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:09 PM

Forget the ridges, I want to know how they became taller, stockier, and with bigger boobs.
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