Relationship Dynamics

[Theunicornhunter 2]

This thread was inspired by a couple comments in the chosen Realm thread - I didn't want to take that thread off topic but at least two members made comments about the character dynamics - or lack thereof.

 

Initially Trip/T'Pol were supposed to have a sort of Spock/McCoy type relationship. And I think the tension created by their opposition in emotional temperament would have made this ideal. But in truth I can't really recall one scene where Archer/Trip/T'Pol ever "discussed" a plan of action as Kirk/Spock/McCoy often did. In fact it seems beginning with season two Archer/Trip never appeared in a scene together except maybe Canamar when Trip was Archer's shadow. Most of Trip's character development came from contact with alien races: The Shipment, Dawn, The Crossing, Cogenitor. My favorite Trip scene from season two was when he was on the bridge in Cease Fire. Although they did take the opportunity to develop the friendship between Malcolm and Trip.

 

TPTB spent most of season two trying to force a sexual relationship with Archer/T'Pol that just didn't work. They may have abandoned that idea but as trinneergirl pointed out in another thread even into season three the only relationship we see is Archer/T'Pol. Trip has been reduced to providing an opportunity for Jolene Blalock to appear in midriff baring PJ's. Now I like to see Connor Trinneer take off his shirt as much as anyone but I think his character has so much more potential. Trinneer's best opportunity to act this season wasn't even as Trip but was as Sim. We still get a couple of opportunities to see Trip and Malcolm discuss life in the mess hall but that's about it for them. I loved their relationship in season two when they were exploring the ship in future tense. It was like two big kids being handed the ultimate toy. Anyway I'm still waiting to see more of Malcolm this season. His character certainly grows on you -

 

In fact I'd have to say in season three character development has suffered all round. It has been replaced by special effects and battle scenes. Not that we shouldn't have some of that. But I occasionally watch some of the TOS and I find the relationships really added depth to that show.

 

Phlox was a little harder to warm up to and I think they add some scenes "like the toenail clipping" for shock value that we just don't need. But I have come to like him better and I wouldn't mind seeing him on an away mission.

 

I like Archer better when he's not whiney, wishey washey but I still think he needs to develop his relationships with Trip and Malcolm and I think Malcolm should be promoted to Lt. Cmdr.

 

I've also had a hard time warming up to T'Pol and I think that is mainly because TPTB try to hard to push her on us. This isn't Blalock's fault. I think the folks at UPN really believe if you put a great body in a catsuit "it" will become a favorite character. I've had people mention one of the reasons they didn't like ENT was because she was such a b---- in the first season. I know others disagree but I think they still use her too much as the female in distress and don't give her enough opportunity to develop her competencies. I think she had the best opportunity to be a "normal" officer in Carpenter Street so far this season.

 

Hoshi, well at least she quit whining - I still think she's a bit of a prima donna although she did show some determination in Exile but I still don't miss her if she's not in many scenes.

 

Mayweather - if they wanted to get rid of a character and introduce a new one - this would be the one I would choose.

[chunderfish 0]

Oh how I agree with what you say about Trip's character development this season. Really there hasn't been any has there? He is reduced to being an excuse to see T'Pol half dressed (well him too - I guess every cloud has a silver lining). The sting in their relationship has been filtered out which is a shame because I think that the Spock/McCoy dynamic worked well with them and at least was credible. Where the writers are heading now just is not believable - they are pulling T'Pol way off character. What is so annoying is that season three was set up to be so promising for Trip in terms of his character development and we have been given nothing. Aside from his not being able to sleep - his issues have not been addressed.

 

Malcolm has had some interesting development with more to come it seems but really at the end of the day it's become the Archer show with strong support from T'Pol and that's it and I'm sorry but I just don't find that very interesting.

[Mike 5]

I'll agree that Trip hasn't been given much this season so far. As much as I enjoy seeing T'Pol in PJs, it probably is time to get Trip out of her quarters and give him something useful to contribute..Let's get back to developing the 4 character relationships..Archer, T'Pol, Trip, Reed..They certainly are the main characters..I know Archer is the Captain but these other characters need to contribute too. The more I see of Reed the more I like him..It would be cool to see him promoted after this business in the Expanse is over.

 

I do like Hoshi and Mayweather too but there doesn't seem like there is much for them to do these days. And I don't see that changing..

[karenjo 0]

This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it, unicornhunter.

 

I agree, character development is suffering bigtime this season. I like action and shoot-em-ups as much as the next guy/gal, but I have always watched Trek primarily to get to know the people. Trip Tucker is my favorite ENT character, and not because I like seeing him shirtless (although I do). He's my favorite because of his impetuousness, his honesty (often to a fault), and his habit of being ruled by his gut and not his head. He's both strong-man-in-charge and little-boy-lost, a classic combination that has worked for countless characters in film and literature, from Ender of Orson Scott Card fame to James Kirk of TOS. And his emotional bent was a good balance to T'Pol's intellect in seasons one and two. That balance is part of what gave promise to the Tucker-T'Pol-Archer trio: Archer as the leader, guided by his emotional conscience (Tucker) and his intellectual one (T'Pol). If you're reminded of the McCoy-Spock-Kirk trio, you're right.

 

Having said that, I have to yell, scream, and stomp my feet about the lack of development of these and other characters this season. We've had some glimpses into Tucker's motivations, in past episodes like "Dawn" and "Cogenitor." This season began with some memories of his sister, a poignant look at his family ties and the people he loves. Then...nothing. "Similitude," as someone said earlier, gave us great insight into the clone, but not the original. This season's only other character-developing episodes have been "Exile" and "Twilight" -- both good ones, which shows that it can be done.

 

As for the relationships between characters, I found the first-season sexual tension between T'Pol and Archer intriguing, especially given their acknowlegement of its existence and their resolve not to act upon it. If T'Pol and Tucker actually enter into a sexual liason, I won't believe it. I haven't been given enough insight into her character to understand how or why she would be attracted to him. And all I know about his attraction to her is that he likes her body. That's believable enough, but that's a good reason for one night in the sack, not for a relationship. I took notice when he gave her a peach one episode (remember the peach scene in Tom Sawyer?) -- that had potential. Unfortunately, the writers dropped that line of thinking too. I'm left with half-developed hints at characters' backgrounds and motivations, and I'm frustrated.

 

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? WHY ARE THEY IN STARFLEET? WHAT ARE THEIR PASSIONS? WHERE ARE THEIR LOYALTIES? WHAT ARE THEIR DREAMS -- BOTH HOPES AND NIGHTMARES? WHAT LOSSES HAVE THEY SUFFERED? WHAT ARE THEIR TRIUMPHS? These are the big questions; the little ones are just as important. We know Tucker likes key lime pie. That's a start. Give us more!

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

Character development versus action, always difficult to balance.

 

Personally I prefer to see good action based stories revolving around sci-fi concepts, as can be seen in TOS. If there is one point I feel strongly about then it is that Enterprise should structure story and plot more closely to that style.

 

In the last two series (DS9 and Voyager) I felt that there was too much focus on character driven plots rather than sci-fi action plots and this is the major reason why these two always fall below the others in my preference list. I know a lot of television shows are moving towards a character driven style (especially those where fan influence is a bit too powerful i.e. X Files) but I just don't find it as interesting as I am not interested in watching a sci-fi show to see the intricacies of Paris' romance with his girlfriend/wife. If I wanted that then I would have watched a soap or started reading Mills and Boon!

 

Having said that TOS did manage IMO effective development of the inter-relationship between the characters without ever really devoting an entire episode to it, as relationships were developed during momentary breaks in the action. That's how I would play it if I were producer.

[MoulinRouge 0]

Yes, more character development please. However, I wish TPTB would just allow Trip and T'Pol more scenes to talk with one another. They would compliment the sensuality believably (do we want Trip to stop taking off that shirt, ladies? I think not ). I honestly believe that people would eat up Trip/T'Pol as a couple if the writers took a little more time with it. I, too, adored that scene of him giving her the peach. It was simple, sweet, in a sexy sort of way. Why can't they talk about Lizzie and his feelings about her death? Have her counsel him about the futility of revenge? All certainly interesting stuff that would keep the audience interested. Trip wouldn't necessarily have to eagerly embrace T'Pol's advice. They don't have to act like Frankie and Annette now that they will be intimate with one another. Just a little more development, please. Sexual or platonic, Trip and T'Pol have such an interesting vibe going on with them--more so than her and Archer IMHO. They just need development. They could be the quintessential, exciting Trek couple. How's this for depressing? I acutally lurked at an Archer/T'Pol romance site and the folks who are disappointed that Archer and T'Pol won't be romancing each other are planning--before they even SEE the episode--an "all out assault on the boards" to scream how much Harbinger sucks. Their goal? To post more criticism than ANIS received (good luck). First we have people on-line circulating petitions to get ENT cancelled for God's sake and now this s_h_i_t is being planned in advance of actually seeing the episode. :huh: Fans like that ENT doesn't need. I know several folks who enjoyed Archer and T'Pol who are much mature than that but they'll get lost in the brouhaha for sure. Can't they just wait and watch the episode before deciding to hate it? :P A little more development for Trip and T'Pol would go a long way towards quelling that sentiment. That's what frustrates me because I know they could work--and work well as far as keeping the audience's attention whether or not someone was rooting for them to succeed as a couple or not. Their hooking up wouldn't necessitate a white picket fence ending, but Trip and T'Pol are fascinating if only allowed to interact meaningfully. Let them make love (what's wrong with making love and being sexually attracted to one another? It happens ). Let them fight. I wouldn't mind seeing them fight. Let them TALK. Such conversations not only would deal with Trip's feelings of loss but they would provide insight into T'Pol as well and benefit her character as well. T'Pol doesn't seem to lose herself with Trip like she does with the captain. Archer and T'Pol just put me to sleep. I'm sorry. I know there are people who enjoy them but I did not like the emphasis on the two of them, platonically or sexually, during season two. The writers aren't going back to Archer and T'Pol flirting and for that I'm grateful. Maybe it's just that Blalock and Bakula don't mesh. I'm not sure.

 

The neglected male friendships? You're singing to the choir. Action is great but we're getting in need of some balance here. "Moments" go a long way. Kirk and Spock were the epitome of shared moments. The Ultimate Computer, Spock....

 

Computers make excellent tools captain, but I have no desire to serve under them. Starships also run on loyalty to one man and nothing will ever replace that....or him..

 

My God, ten seconds out of the episode and it added so much. You remember how brilliantly and subtly Nimoy delivered that line? For crying out loud, he told Kirk he loved and respected him in that line. ENT could use that. Archer and Trip are crying out for those kind of moments again. They're getting lost. Like Karenjo, I find it ironic that more character development occurred in "Similitude" with the fake Trip. I loved the episode, but also hated it for that very reason. I found it ironic that I felt more love coming out of Archer for Trip when he was in Trip's quarters with Sim.....yanking that small picture out of Sim's hands and putting it back in its correct place, repeating himself that Enterprise needs Trip.....Trip (not Enterprise needs "its chief engineer") and threatening Sim's life more or less. I didn't necessarily approve of his behavior but I understood where this extreme emotional reaction on Archer's part was coming from and I ate it up. Good or bad, Archer loves his friend. His real friend. That makes for good viewing because you sensed Archer's palpable emotional distress. Archer and Trip had some wonderful moments in season one that dwindled in season two in favor of Archer/T'Pol. I didn't like that. The scene in "Vox Sola" when they were tangled up in the mayonnaise monster and Trip suffered a panic attack, only to be calmed down by Archer? Loved it. Ate it up. Male bonding at its best. The male/male friendship dynamic never gets old. WE chicks dig it too much.

 

The water polo "date"? Loved it. Trip and Malcolm riding the stationary bikes in "Stigma" where the audience was shown rather than told that Trip confides his problems in Malcolm (even the amusing ones like being stalked by the preternaturally horny Mrs. Phlox)? Wonderful. That two minute scene added so much by showing us Trip and Malcolm's level of confidence in one another. John Billingsley needs some of that action as well. How about an honest talk between him and Trip about Sim? How about Trip going to the doctor because he's concerned about Archer's stress level? That would make sense. Take more advantage of this darker, edgier Archer. It makes sense that a man under such stress would attempt to make himself an island but what a treat it would be to see the other characters trying not to let that happen.

Edited January 17, 2004 by MoulinRouge

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I acutally lurked at an Archer/T'Pol romance site and the folks who are disappointed that Archer and T'Pol won't be romancing each other are planning--before they even SEE the episode--an "all out assault on the boards" to scream how much Harbinger sucks.  

 

Wow, at least I'm willing to watch the episode first...

Click for Spoiler:

But there is nothing they can do to make a "relationship" believable between these two. There may be no sizzle between Archer/T'Pol but they are more alike in temperament. I have read though that there will be a "reason" for T'Pol's behavior discovered and a long term relationship isn't in the works. I'm not sure a one night stand between the second and third officer on the ship is a good idea. I'm afraid it will hurt the future development of the characters.

 

 

 

John Billingsley needs some of that action as well.  How about an honest talk between him and Trip about Sim?  How about Trip going to the doctor because he's concerned about Archer's stress level?

That is an excellent idea

 

TransporterMalfunction Posted on Jan 17 2004, 11:23 AM

Having said that TOS did manage IMO effective development of the inter-relationship between the characters without ever really devoting an entire episode to it, as relationships were developed during momentary breaks in the action. That's how I would play it if I were producer.

Exactly

Edited January 17, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[Trinneergirl 0]

My favourite aspect of the show was the amazing relationship between Archer and Trip. The fact that Trip was the only one with whom he could confide his worries and concerns, (Silent Enemy was fantastic here), was such a break from the 'it has to be a woman that everyone confides in', that dominates TV. The way Archer failed to get the Vulcan to speak to his father in Fusion, then dumped it on Trip, knowing his friend had the ability to find a way through, was perfect. The moments of humour that made Enterprise so fun to watch.

 

Broken Bow.

 

Archer: Why is that panel flashing?

 

Trip: Er. Travis told me not to worry about that one.

 

Archer: That's reassuring.

 

And after Archer uses the phase-pistol for the first time, felling a Suliban like a sack of potatoes.

 

Archer(to Trip): Stun seems to work.

 

The Archer/Trip dynamic was what made me really love Enterprise, I feel robbed that it went away so they could bore us silly with Archer/T'Pol. Not only, (in my opinion) are their scenes entirely chemistry free, but for Archer to drop his friend from all the command decisions and only confide in T'Pol, just because, apparently, she wears a cat-suit, shows him to be as poor a friend as he's become a captain.

 

Click for Spoiler:

I'm not fond of Trip/T'Pol either, but at least it's a reason to see Trip. Without the massage scenes, what would we have had of Trip this year? Why didn't we get to see him struggle with the warp core? One minute Trip has to re-write the book on warp theory to cope in the expanse, next it's fine! Did they carry on with Trip's modifications after Similitude? It was only the freak rustcloud that caused the problem. We never know. It's not T'Pol's breasts or Archer's permanent temper tantrum so it never gets seen.

 

 

And Trip is the third command officer, (supposedly - although I'm still somewhat derisory about the civilian T'Pol staying on as first officer). We've seen Trip grow into the command chair until he's brilliant there, (Extinction/Twilight), but series three has reduced him to being a fool. I never thought I'd say I'm about ready to give up on Enterprise, but I've spent time and money supporting this show from day one, only to see it 'fixed' to please the bashers, (who still hate it anyway!) I like the arc, the TCW and the Xindi. But forty minutes of Captain Pissed-Off and Sub-Commander Rainbow Catsuits, five wasted minutes of Commander Shirtless and bare glimpses of the other characters is dull. Dull, dull, dull. :blink:

 

I want the story to be driven and well written, and the pace and drama in the writing has improved in season three. But without the friendships and moments of reflection in the midst of the fight for Earth, this is more like a video game. Without attachment to the people, why should we care what they're fighting for? :blink:

 

D'ya know, I was gonna lurk at this place! Betcha all wish I had!! :oops:

 

:o

[Theunicornhunter 2]

D'ya know, I was gonna lurk at this place!  Betcha all wish I had!! :oops:

 

Not at all ... It's great to hear someone who shares my views. In fact Harbinger will probably determine if I keep watching or not. Trip deserves to be written better - CT is a terrific actor.

[karenjo 0]

I agree with much of what has been said, especially with the feeling that any supposed sexual tension between characters has been overplayed. We need to get to know the characters as people first, and then maybe we can believe that certain ones would be attracted to each other. And even then, it can be overdone. I agree with whoever-it-was who said they got bored with the soap opera romances between Worf and Dax, and Parris and B'Lana, et cetera. As much as I laughed about Kirk and his femme-du-jour, I prefer that to a Harlequin Romance Novel set in space.

 

Bottom line: in the context of a science fiction/action series, give us some characters with depth. Think of it this way: we knew the characters from TOS and TNG so well that we can well imagine what sorts of novels they would read in their spare time. Try to imagine the same about the ENT characters. Can you do it? I can with a couple (Hoshi: Great Expectations; Trip: Ender's Game), but not with most of them (Archer, T'Pol, Reed, the ever-silent Mayweather: I haven't a clue).

[Theunicornhunter 2]

hink of it this way:  we knew the characters from TOS and TNG so well that we can well imagine what sorts of novels they would read in their spare time.  Try to imagine the same about the ENT characters.  Can you do it?  I can with a couple (Hoshi: Great Expectations; Trip: Ender's Game), but not with most of them (Archer, T'Pol, Reed, the ever-silent Mayweather: I haven't a clue).

Reed - The Art of War - and maybe the Horatio Hornblower series

[karenjo 0]

Great! :blink: Check out my new poll!

[Ace 0]

I wont say much here as I've given my opinion on the Trip/T'Pol relationship before.

 

ENT needs characters,,,, period. Why is Anthony Mongomery even in the credits anymore; I think Porthos has gotten more screen-time! :blink:

 

Anyway, I agree with Trinneergirl. IMHO, Trip is the single best character on the show, and Connor is by far the best actor. I think he can create acting chemistry with whoever he's in a scene with, but tptb aren't using that to their advantage. Instead the show is focusing on Cap'n bad-mood and T'Pol's .... "assets", while relegating Trip to a few pointless scenes. If they want to try for better relationship dynamics in ENT, they need to give more screen time to Trip and Phlox. Billingsly may annoy me just a little, but he's got the acting chops and should be showcased more often. Phlox has a few Guinan-like qualities, and would complement Archer well, imo. He's also good in his scenes with T'Pol - the only two aliens aboard, with Phlox helping T'Pol to understand the actions of the rest of the crew a'la Doc/Seven of Nine.

 

I say give Phlox more time with Archer and T'Pol, keep the Trip/T'Pol relationship but turn down the overtones, bring Trip back to the way we saw him in season 2 -often and as a competent character, and give Mayweather a personality; Montgomery can act as well. They seem to be doing ok (not great, though) with Hoshi, and I'm sorry guys, but I don't think Reed is a strong character at all. If I had to have someone leave the show, it would be him. :o

 

Oh well, that's at least a part of my rant.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

I have to say I have wondered if some of the other actors were jealous of Trip's popularity and that's why they've toned him down - which makes no sense why not promote what will encourage viewership. Less Trip isn't going to make me like the other characters any more. It's just going to make me like ENT less.

 

I just watched an old TOS episode and was thinking Kirk and Spock used to go on away missions together. Archer and Trip need to have missions together. So far they've had two - Dessert Crossing where Trip nearly died and Canamar where Trip was manacled while Archer saved the ship. Interesting pattern -

 

And then there was Chosen Realm where their interaction involved Archer grabbing Trip's arm and jerking him around and talking down to him like he was a four year old. (or like some people talk to four year olds)

 

I think a Trip/Phlox away mission could have some potential as well. This season is suffering from a lack of humor and yes humor is possible even in bleak circumstances. Yes, bring back the old Trip....I love that "if you don't start moving by the time I count to five...I'm going to shoot you in the a--"

[karenjo 0]

This season is suffering from a lack of humor and yes humor is possible even in bleak circumstances.

Good Lord, yes. Remember M*A*S*H? Humor is not only possible in bleak circumstances, it's absolutely vital.

[chunderfish 0]

Amen and amen to whoever it was that said that if the Trip / T'Pol thing goes ahead they simply would not believe it - THAT is the crux of it. It is all Trip has been used for this season - and watching back it is clear he's been set up from the beginning. This is a total waste of the best actor on the show as someone else said.

 

I can't do the sums but with seven main characters there are a lot of relationship dynamics to explore - we don't want just Archer and internal Archer every week. He is becoming less and less the leader one would follow and more and more introverted, tunnel visioned and blinkered to what is happening with the crew he is meant to be responsible for and worst of all he doesn't care. There are over eighty people committed to this mission not just one! And then when one of his senior officers (Trip) in Anomaly does ask what is bothering him when Archer asks for the weapons to be top priority he is just plain rude to him. He's done the same to T'Pol. If he carries on shutting people out and taking only his own counsel like this Phlox would be well advised to remove him from duty on medical grounds.