HRH The KING 0 Posted August 27, 2004 No something still doesn't add up, how are they milking every last dollar from the franshise if they're still 24 Million in the hole from NEM? By trying to overstretch the franchise, and failing to find any success. What I meant was that they aren't putting enough thought into Trek anymore because they release new series and movies which are not doing well. They've lost deals with licencees for merchandise and video games because those companies can see that Paramount are not giving Trek the attention it deserves and are causing the franchise to decline. :unsure: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WEAREBORG4102 0 Posted August 27, 2004 Voyager fan here who has watched every single episode!!!! :unsure: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted August 28, 2004 Oh, well, fans of VOY, NEM and ENT do exist so they must be doing something right. Frankly I place most of the blame with Stubborn Old Timers, we can't have it our way so most all of them are jumping ship in retaliation, like a tantrum. Imo. Gorkin: "If there is to be a brave new world our kind will have the hardest time living in it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRH The KING 0 Posted August 28, 2004 Oh, well, fans of VOY, NEM and ENT do exist so they must be doing something right. Well, some episodes of VOY were good. The ship was very well designed. The Doctor, Tom Paris and Seven saved the show, otherwise it would have been a disaster. NEM had very good special effects, even though it featured that horrible Enterprise- E. ENT is abysmal, but I'll give it another chance when series four begins. Frankly I place most of the blame with Stubborn Old Timers, we can't have it our way so most all of them are jumping ship in retaliation, like a tantrum. Imo. I place the blame on Berman and Braga who have essentially run out of ideas and Star Trek fans who accept anything as long as it says "Star Trek" on it, no matter how bad it may be. I also blame Paramount for lacking the vision to bring Trek to where it belongs to be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WEAREBORG4102 0 Posted August 28, 2004 What I don't understand is why B&B don't let fans submit ideas? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRH The KING 0 Posted August 28, 2004 They used to allow that when Michael Piller was around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gdog243 0 Posted August 28, 2004 Oh, well, fans of VOY, NEM and ENT do exist so they must be doing something right. Frankly I place most of the blame with Stubborn Old Timers, we can't have it our way so most all of them are jumping ship in retaliation, like a tantrum. Imo. Gorkin: "If there is to be a brave new world our kind will have the hardest time living in it." 256918[/snapback] Wait you are blaming the core fanbase for trying to be loyal to the franchise and want the show to push foward and improve? Don't forget, one of the reasons trek is so popular is because of these "Oldtimers." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mj 7 Posted August 28, 2004 The 'oldtimers' are not of one mind. I am an 'oldtimer'. I am nearly fifty years old, and watched TOS when it originally aired. There is a valid difference of opinion as to whether or not Enterprise or Voyager is good Star Trek. People who disagree with Enterprise bashers or voyager bashers are no less loyal to the ideas of Star Trek than those who believe they are protecting some 'canon', or some level of quality. It's not just accepting anything labelled with Star Trek as valid. It is allowing people to take slightly different approach, and to see where it could lead. Bashers fail to allow anyone beyond their narrow perspectives as to what constitutes 'good' to try to express Trek-related ideas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krysis 2 Posted August 28, 2004 Voyager. Wasn't the best of the series but also wasn't the worst. I wish they didn't take Kes away. I thought she was really good-looking. She's got a very sweet smile. I don't like Neelix - especially his cooking. I think he is humour badly placed. "nuff said Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRH The KING 0 Posted August 28, 2004 (edited) Bashers fail to allow anyone beyond their narrow perspectives as to what constitutes 'good' to try to express Trek-related ideas. I don't consider myself a "basher". I'm definately a critic of ENT, NEM and the recent direction of the franchise. I welcome listening to the opinions of those who disagree with me, but ratings and box office returns do not lie. ENT is the lowest rated Trek show of them all. NEM was the biggest failure of all the Trek movies. In terms of quality, I never thought VOY was good enough. Certainly not up to the standards of TNG and definately no where near DS9 in terms of quality. Trek has been declining for some years now. If that faction of Trek fans who support Berman, Braga and Paramount, don't see anything wrong with the franchise as it stands now and wish to simply accept what they are given under the name of "Star Trek", then so be it, but if something is not done to stop the slide, Trek will get weaker and weaker. Edited August 28, 2004 by The King Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mj 7 Posted August 29, 2004 If that faction of Trek fans who support Berman, Braga and Paramount, don't see anything wrong with the franchise as it stands now and wish to simply accept what they are given under the name of "Star Trek", then so be it, but if something is not done to stop the slide, Trek will get weaker and weaker. 257376[/snapback] There are not merely two camps....one that agree with B&B and Paramount, and one that does not. And many of us who enjoy Enterprise or Voyager, the ones so many say 'don't measure up,' have major points of contention with some aspects of the series. It is just that the things that are not what we might like do not prevent us from enjoying what is right, nor cause us to label it as "less trek-like" than the other series. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRH The KING 0 Posted August 29, 2004 There are not merely two camps....one that agree with B&B and Paramount, and one that does not. I agree. I never said there were only two. The Trek fanbase has been fractured since TNG debuted in '87. And many of us who enjoy Enterprise or Voyager, the ones so many say 'don't measure up,' have major points of contention with some aspects of the series. I understand that. Even though ENT and VOY are/were disappointing, they were still better than 99% of other shows. Even "bad Trek" is still higher in quality than almost anything else. My criticism of the direction of the franchise is in comparison to other aspects of Trek which I believe were better. It is just that the things that are not what we might like do not prevent us from enjoying what is right, nor cause us to label it as "less trek-like" than the other series. I never personally claimed it was 'less Trek-like'. There are aspects of Trek which I do not like, and personally I sometimes just ignore most story-related aspects which I find cause to complain over. These are things which cause problems in the Trek storyline like "warp fields damaging space" or the things that happen in the movies which I don't believe fit well with the rest of Trek. For example "Kirk travels to the center of the galaxy" or "A giant probe wants to talk to whales" or "Remans look like Predators with massive Uber Ships". If I were personally writing a Trek show or episode, I would ignore or contradict those gimmicks if they were in conflict with something I wished to address. My problem is how Paramount have allowed Trek to decline through bad decisions and a lack of vision. Such as gratutious things like T'Pol to appeal to a more vulgar demographic who like those inane things, or poor characters or dull storylines or pointless folly's like flop movies. That's what I have a problem with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mj 7 Posted August 29, 2004 My problem is how Paramount have allowed Trek to decline through bad decisions and a lack of vision. Such as gratutious things like T'Pol to appeal to a more vulgar demographic who like those inane things 257547[/snapback] I agree completely with the comment about the way T'pol's character has been developed, but I can't think of a major character I find uninteresting. I think some have been underdeveloped, but I do not find them uninteresting because of that. I think many Star Trek fans are themselves creative, and never merely watch to get 'what is.' I think they are always asking 'what else', and looking a little deeper. For some people inadequate development set their creative juices flowing. As far as I am concerned as a fan, if the Star Trek franchise fails, it will not be because of a lack of support from me. I just purchased my first fan fiction from the bookstore, and have already read one story. It was based on an aspect of one Star Trek TOS episode, and was a short, sweet addendum to that story. But the biggest clump of stories in the book are not based on TOS or TNG, but on Voyager characters! ( I got tired of reading what people say here at stf.net in the forums that deal with fan fiction, and not know what they are talking about!) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRH The KING 0 Posted August 29, 2004 I agree completely with the comment about the way T'pol's character has been developed, but I can't think of a major character I find uninteresting. I think some have been underdeveloped, but I do not find them uninteresting because of that. I see many lost opportunities. VOY had a tremendous premise, but was let down by poor characters. I don't like ENT's premise nor its characters, with possibly the exception of Archer who I feel is played excellently by Scott Bakula, who is a credit to Trek. I think many Star Trek fans are themselves creative, and never merely watch to get 'what is.' I think they are always asking 'what else', and looking a little deeper. For some people inadequate development set their creative juices flowing. Star Trek fans IMO are the most intelligent and creative fans of any TV show. :) :) :borgqueen: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krysis 2 Posted August 30, 2004 I agree with the King. I love Star Trek. That makes me a Star Trek Fan. Star Trek Fans are the most intelligent and creative fans of any TV show. Therefore logic dictates that I am intelligent and creative. Man! I just love the sound of that! There are, I must say, some pretty good fan fiction out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spot_kitten 0 Posted September 3, 2004 voyager is my favorite incarnation of trek, but i find the other four just as injoyable, and i do agree with the fact that there are some really good fan fics out there, also some of the sim storylines i find are fantastic (however i do not sim) the creativity and depth are amazing. as a whole though i feel that trek fans are most dedicated, i mean lets face it trek is growing all the time there is hardly anybody who does not know about star trek even if they do not follow it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krysis 2 Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Correct me if I'm wrong.... there is only one other series of movies that dates itself older than star trek.... James Bond 007. That has got to mean something to us. Edited September 7, 2004 by krysis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites