T'pol

[A l t e r E g o 9]

I looked for an old thread to make my T'Pol comments on but couldn't find one so here is a new one devoted to her.

 

I do agree with arguments about T'Pol skating around taking no (or being forced to take) responsibility for her terrible mistakes but is now the time for the crew to be caught up in dealing with them? I mean look at the situations they've been in, was there ever any time to stop examine and punish her actions? I don't think so, it's been one calamity after another with barely enough time for crew people to get any sleep let alone conduct an investigation into her actions.

 

Will she ever get what's coming to her? I believe so, one way (punishment she deserves) or another (*) a day of reckoning is approaching; it's just a matter of getting to a point in time when not dealing with the fabric of future time unraveling is of Paramount importance.

 

Here's a question now; (*) What if during the interim she redeems herself through self sacrifice or saves the day by following orders, will that be reason enough to forgive her past sins? It will be for me and is in fact the direction I'm convinced the tptb are taking for her character.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

AE, you have much greater faith in TPTB than I do. I honestly believe they do not think there was anything wrong with T'Pol's actions and they were merely looking for a plot device that could explain her hooking up with Trip.

 

I also think there is more to accepting responsibility than some people understand. The crucial step is "accepting" responsibility. I mean looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing with horror the choices you made, to admit to yourself and to your Captain what you did, and to feel genuine remorse for it.

 

All the selfless acts in the world are meaningless to her character development, IMO, if she doesn't at some point feel genuine sorror for her actions. (and admit to Archer what she did)

 

I don't think she should be First Officer, she has proven she doesn't give the position her all. Science officer maybe, but she should have to regain Archer's trust.

 

The other step I think people overlook is that "punishment" isn't about revenge - it ultimately should be about helping the person regain their confidence and their self respect. T'Pol, of course, hasn't lost her confidence or her self respect because she doesn't think she did anything wrong. But if you truly forgive a person then you want them to able to forgive themselves and people often need a process in order to do that.

Edited July 9, 2004 by TheUnicornHunter

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

AE, you have much greater faith in TPTB than I do.  I honestly believe they do not think there was anything wrong with T'Pol's actions and they were merely looking for a plot device that could explain her hooking up with Trip.

 

I also think there is more to accepting responsibility than some people understand.  The crucial step is "accepting" responsibility.  I mean looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing with horror the choices you made, to admit to yourself and to your Captain what you did, and to feel genuine remorse for it. 

 

All the selfless acts in the world are meaningless to her character development, IMO, if she doesn't at some point feel genuine sorror for her actions. (and admit to Archer what she did)

 

I don't think she should be First Officer, she has proven she doesn't give the position her all.  Science officer maybe, but she should have to regain Archer's trust.

 

The other step I think people overlook is that "punishment" isn't about revenge - it ultimately should be about helping the person regain their confidence and their self respect.  T'Pol, of course, hasn't lost her confidence or her self respect because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.  But if you truly forgive a person then you want them to able to forgive themselves and people often need a process in order to do that.

Well perhaps the issue of punishment could be seen in season 4. Personally I think T'Pol is great and certainly the best Vulcan since Spock, I like the fact that she is not perfect but I do hope her emotional control starts to return over the next season.

[mj 7]

AE, you have much greater faith in TPTB than I do.  I honestly believe they do not think there was anything wrong with T'Pol's actions and they were merely looking for a plot device that could explain her hooking up with Trip.

 

I also think there is more to accepting responsibility than some people understand.  The crucial step is "accepting" responsibility.  I mean looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing with horror the choices you made, to admit to yourself and to your Captain what you did, and to feel genuine remorse for it. 

 

The other step I think people overlook is that "punishment" isn't about revenge - it ultimately should be about helping the person regain their confidence and their self respect.  T'Pol, of course, hasn't lost her confidence or her self respect because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.  But if you truly forgive a person then you want them to able to forgive themselves and people often need a process in order to do that.

I completely agree with TUh on this. It would be a shocking (though welcome) development to see TPTB actually deal with the behavior approrpiately.

[Trinneergirl 0]

If you look at Cogenitor, there really was a change. Trip altered radically afterwards. He was genuinely contrite and altered a great deal in character as a result. He is nowhere near as impulsive in his behaviour and genuinely suffered for what he did.

 

T'Pol took drugs because she 'wanted' to. Her very words about it in Damage were,

"I wanted more". Not 'ached for', not 'needed'. Vulcans are very direct about speech. She wanted more of the emotions she felt in Impulse and decided to take more Trellium despite her responsibilities as First Officer and the people who relied upon her.

 

By Azati Prime she knew she was addicted and knew the drug was having a large effect on her judgment. When Archer decided to go on the suicide mission it was her call to not take on the Captaincy. That she took the job speaks worlds about her lack of integrity. They were by the moon where they had destroyed the Xindi look-out post. They knew that if they stayed where they were they would be detected. After Archer left, T'Pol's behaviour went from skulking in the ready room for two hours, (which allowed the Xindi to find them), to hysterically trying to take a shuttle-pod for 'talks' with the Xindi, (which had both her and Trip in the Shuttlepod bay when the attack started, losing valuable response time). When she did reach the bridge, she was as good as useless, staring like a rabbit in the headlights.

 

Her incompetence cost eighteen lives. The Xindi killed them, but she was professionally responsible too, by her being incapable when the crew needed her most, and the manslaughter of those crewmen and women is on her hands. I've always liked T'Pol and thought Jolene gave her a lot more than most people credit her with as a character, but T'Pol's Trellium addiction has left me with nothing but disgust for her. She was far more concerned about hiding her actions than facing them, Phlox colluded and she has got off without any problems other then a little bit of mild emotion here and there.

 

I do not believe TPTB will make her pay a single consequence for her total lack of judgment, honour or honesty. I'd like to see her removed from the command chain and made a civilian head of science. I'd like to see her have to win back the trust of the others after her shoddy behaviour. Her still being First Officer spits on us all. To have a Trek show saying it's okay to take drugs as long as no-one finds out, even if you accidentally cause someone's death, is just appalling.

Edited July 11, 2004 by Trinneergirl

[Mike 5]

Well, here's my 2 cents worth..I do like T'pol but like TUH, MJ and others I have a problem with this whole Trellium addiction..Had she not been responsible for the lives of 18 crewman I may feel differently..I'm still hoping that there will be some consequence for her actions or inaction..While we're talking about T'Pol something has been bothering me for quite a while..I've kinda put it in the back of my head to try to forget about it...But If T'Pol resigned her commission with the Vulcan High Command why is she still the First Officer of Enterprise ? Science Officer, sure..But First Officer ? She isn't with Starfleet either..Is she a civilian First Officer ? This needs to be explained to me somehow..Anyone have any thoughts on it ? Is it just because they were going into the Expanse and after the Xindi ? Perhaps they wanted the best officers possible on the bridge for the mission..That Trellium addiction really ruins that perception somewhat of T'ol being a good bridge officer..I still like T'Pol and feel she can still be a good character for the show but she needs to face some kind of reprimand don't ya think ? In the very least I want Archer to find out about it..Can you imagine what his reaction will be ?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

For her being a first officer I have no idea, another 'blunder' by the tptb I guess.

 

I agree she screwed up but is it a blunder by tptb which will never be resolved or is something planned which will teach the lesson against drug use? So far the popular consensus is it will never be properly addressed. I'm still holding out hope she'll have her comeuppance one way or another someday.

[Trinneergirl 0]

If you recall Broken Bow, T'Pol muscled her way into the job of First Officer by assuming command once Archer was injured by the Suliban weapon on Rigel and threatening Trip with contacting Starfleet to end the mission to return Klaang.

 

Trip is a Commander, T'Pol a Sub-Commander. They are both of the same rank which is why their personal relationship doesn't affect the protocols. She claimed 'supersedence' for her rank, that is that she has been that rank longer than Trip, for taking command in Broken Bow. You only have to see that Trip has never called her 'Ma'am' to realise her rank was, and is tenuous.

 

Once T'Pol resigned from the Vulcan High Command, her only 'rank' came from Enterprise. In other words she could only be considered a 'Sub-Commander' from the moment she joined Enterprise. That is, since Trip was a Commander from before that time, (see Broken Bow - before the launch), he outranks her and should be first officer. And that is even if you swallow the idea that anyone can be First Officer, even though they aren't an 'officer' An officer doesnt wear a selection of civilian catsuits.

 

But I am well versed in the fact that having (I'm trying to say a bad word but can't) and wearing a catsuit gives you a credibility bypass in this show. There has been no reason for her to be First Officer for a long time, but she is there because of the augmented bust. Trip should have been First Officer from The Expanse, by the fact that T'Pol was no longer an officer, and by the fact that he now outranked her, anyway.

 

Phlox should, if he had any integrity, should have released her from command duty when she admitted her addiction. T'Pol, if she had any integrity, would have taken herself out fo the command chain, knowing her judgment was flawed. The pair of them displayed shoddy judgement and shouldn't really be allowed to continue.

 

Trip should be First Officer. Any other outcome is a promotion of drug taking and a kudos for incompetence. Unfortunately, we all know, (I'm trying to say a bad word but can't) in a catsuit outweighs any integrity, honesty, basic sense or justice.

[chunderfish 0]

I agree with all of the above!

 

I don't think that TPTB will ever address the issue however - all they needed was an excuse for her to get her clothes off with Trip. And if she ever was made to face the consequences of her actions I think she would only at best be sorry she was caught - I have sensed no sign at all that she is sorry for what she did because it was wrong and endangered other people. I don't get the sense that she has bothered to think about it at all.

 

I have some sympathy with Archer wanting to retain his command structure for the mission to the Expanse, even if it meant a civilian first officer but now some action ought to be taken against a person who willfully put her own gratification above her duty to the ship.

[Klingonmike 0]

AE, you have much greater faith in TPTB than I do.  I honestly believe they do not think there was anything wrong with T'Pol's actions and they were merely looking for a plot device that could explain her hooking up with Trip.

 

I also think there is more to accepting responsibility than some people understand.  The crucial step is "accepting" responsibility.  I mean looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing with horror the choices you made, to admit to yourself and to your Captain what you did, and to feel genuine remorse for it. 

 

All the selfless acts in the world are meaningless to her character development, IMO, if she doesn't at some point feel genuine sorror for her actions. (and admit to Archer what she did)

 

I don't think she should be First Officer, she has proven she doesn't give the position her all.  Science officer maybe, but she should have to regain Archer's trust.

 

The other step I think people overlook is that "punishment" isn't about revenge - it ultimately should be about helping the person regain their confidence and their self respect.  T'Pol, of course, hasn't lost her confidence or her self respect because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.  But if you truly forgive a person then you want them to able to forgive themselves and people often need a process in order to do that.

Well perhaps the issue of punishment could be seen in season 4. Personally I think T'Pol is great and certainly the best Vulcan since Spock, I like the fact that she is not perfect but I do hope her emotional control starts to return over the next season.

I agree, she is the best Vulcan since Spock. And I'm hopeing the powers that be will set things right in the next season.She may even save the Enterprise next season from some sort of tragedy and that would be great!!

[jefffitz 0]

 

Once T'Pol resigned from the Vulcan High Command, her only 'rank' came from Enterprise.  In other words she could only be considered a 'Sub-Commander' from the moment she joined Enterprise.  That is, since Trip was a Commander from before that time, (see Broken Bow - before the launch), he outranks her and should be first officer.  And that is even if you swallow the idea that anyone can be First Officer, even though they aren't an 'officer'  An officer doesnt wear a selection of civilian catsuits.

 

I think it should be obvious (why a scene wasn't written for it- we'll never know) that Archer requested T'Pol for his first officer, and that Adm. Forest granted his request.

 

Keep in mind that Starfleet in this time period is more like NASA than the Navy, or Marines.

[Trinneergirl 0]

I think it should be obvious (why a scene wasn't written for it- we'll never know) that Archer requested T'Pol for his first officer, and that Adm. Forest granted his request. 

 

Keep in mind that Starfleet in this time period is more like NASA than the Navy, or Marines.

Why would that make it okay? Why doesn't Archer just crew his whole ship with untrained civilians that he just happens to quite like?

 

I dealt okay with T'Pol being the First Officer for the first two series because the character was good. Now with her being a civilian, with her shoddy addiction and her incompetence in command, I find it revolting that she gets of scott-free, (no pun intended), with her dishonesty and utterly poor judgment.

 

Even in a taxi company you wouldn't keep a driver on that had willfully taken drugs or drink and had accidentally killed someone because they chose to get behind the wheel whilst affected by that addiction, let alone NASA! I say again that T'Pol is guilty of the manslaughter of at least 18 people by her behaviour in Azati Prime. So, it's only a TV show. At the end of the day TPTB have to decide if their show is going to condone drug-usage or not. If there are no consequences to T'Pol's addiction and if T'Pol stays on as First Officer, they are condoning precisely that.

[Admiral Kirk 1]

 

I think it should be obvious (why a scene wasn't written for it- we'll never know) that Archer requested T'Pol for his first officer, and that Adm. Forest granted his request. 

 

Keep in mind that Starfleet in this time period is more like NASA than the Navy, or Marines.

Why would that make it okay? Why doesn't Archer just crew his whole ship with untrained civilians that he just happens to quite like? :)

 

I dealt okay with T'Pol being the First Officer for the first two series because the character was good. Now with her being a civilian, with her shoddy addiction and her incompetence in command, I find it revolting that she gets of scott-free, (no pun intended), with her dishonesty and utterly poor judgment.

 

Even in a taxi company you wouldn't keep a driver on that had willfully taken drugs or drink and had accidentally killed someone because they chose to get behind the wheel whilst affected by that addiction, let alone NASA! I say again that T'Pol is guilty of the manslaughter of at least 18 people by her behaviour in Azati Prime. So, it's only a TV show. At the end of the day TPTB have to decide if their show is going to condone drug-usage or not. If there are no consequences to T'Pol's addiction and if T'Pol stays on as First Officer, they are condoning precisely that.

I feel exactly the same way. I honestly think T'pol is one of the worst Vulcans since Spock. She's neck and neck with Valeris of ST VI. I think her actions should have been reported to the captain. Phlox didn't do his job in that respect. What if she relapses and gets more people killed? Who's to blame then?

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

She's worse than Valeris. At least Valeris had some committment to someone and had conviction to believe in what she stood for. T'Pol just wanted to get an emotional high off of Trellium....

[Turak 0]

But look at it from her point of view. I'm not condoning what she did by any means, but she IS a Vulcan after all. If we as humans didn't have emotions and suddenly found ourselves with the means to feel the said emotions, even knowing the downfalls of what we are about to do, would we still use the substance? Absolutely. I don't think the show is trying to convey the idea that drug use is acceptable. She does have the blood of 18 crew members on her hands, there's no disputing that fact. Don't forget doctor-patient confidentiality, either. It will be interesting to see if she continues to abuse the substance, as well. Everyone makes mistakes, and some are more grave than others. She's going to have to live with that on her conscious for a long time, and that's part of the punishment she's going to endure.

Edited July 30, 2004 by chronic

[mj 7]

Well perhaps the issue of punishment could be seen in season 4. Personally I think T'Pol is great and certainly the best Vulcan since Spock, I like the fact that she is not perfect but I do hope her emotional control starts to return over the next season.

I agree, she is the best Vulcan since Spock. And I'm hopeing the powers that be will set things right in the next season.She may even save the Enterprise next season from some sort of tragedy and that would be great!!

 

Tuvok was a far better Vulcan than T'pol. And in Voyager they showed more than one episodes of his struggle with emotions, and with gaining control of his emotions that were consistent with the concept of 'Vulcan' created by L. Nimoy. In particular I think of Tuvix, and the episode where his mind was wiped and he had to relearn everything--he and Neelix became 'close.'

 

In Enterprise they do a very unconvincing job of dealing with the idea of Vulcan's struggling with emotion, because they (TPTB)seemed to have reduced it to being able to put T'pol in sexual situations. It does not seem to be very well thought out.

 

The problem with T'pol and the drug usage, is that she seems to not even be aware from a logical point of view that her impaired actions resulted, most likely (assuming she would have been competant if she were not impaired), in the death of others. Where is any incidcation that she is even aware of her wrongdoing as wrong?