Dark Reality

Yep... like I said, the first season alone of DS9 has taught me that my complaints with the series were completely unfounded. When I made them from the beginning, I tried to tread lightly, in case this would happen.

Weyoun, huh? I just met Winn, the crazy Bajoran extremist. (?)

Actually I just watched that episode, and I thought it was OK. Being an atheist, the issue of religion in school is kind of a personal issue for me, but I think I have a fairly unique perspective on it. So as not to introduce a political debate here, I'll limit it to DS9, but it applies exactly the same in America. I think Keiko could have taught her class without offending most of the Bajorans. If I were in her place, I would have taught the class both what the Federation/Bajoran scientists know about the properties of the wormhole, while at the same time offer the religious perspective. Winn and her people were totally crazy wanting to shove religious theory down everyone's throat, and it sickens me that they prey on the innocent and naive children who don't know better, which is pretty much what they're doing. Now, unlike in real life, Sisko has seen the Prophets, beein in their presence, so we know there's some truth to their religion. It's not so cut and dry with real-life religion. Anyway, I think a line can be walked... teaching kids what we know, explaining what we don't know, and offering them a few popular theories and exposing them to a few not-so-popular theories, so we let them decide for themselves, seek out their own answers. So I believe religion has a welcome place in schools, but as a choice, not presented as fact. Only facts should be presented as fact, whether it supports Science or some god.

Oh, I already like DS9 a lot. I wouldn't say it's a favorite. Even if I like it more than Voyager, I can't see it eclipsing TNG. That's what I grew up on, that's the whole basis of what Star Trek from my perspective. I've just watched the whole run of Voyager straight through, and I've only seen the TNG episodes on TV, here and there... I've seen most for sure, but there are probably some I haven't seen. Yet I feel I know the TNG crew a lot better than Voyager's. I may prefer characters from Voyager to TNG characters, but I still respect TNG as the originals. (I realize TOS came first, but I've only seen a couple episodes, not really interested in it.) But watching DS9 all the way through seemed better than TNG, since I had seen all the episodes. I'll get to TNG eventually, but I wanted to give DS9 another chance. Who knows, maybe someday I'll get to Enterprise.

Before I get started with the second season, I'll watch TOS 2x04 Mirror, MIrror; it was mentioned earlier in this topic as having to do with future DS9 episodes. It'll make a nice intermission.

Now the last reply I strongly disagree with (but won't hold it against you). I loved Voyager, and I'm beginning to like DS9 just as much. And I couldn't get through the first episode of ENT. But then, I'm not fond at all of TOS, an opinion I know I share with very few others (yourself included judging by your avatar).

TOS and TNG had a different approach than DS9 and VOY. The former were exploration missions. The Federation flagships, NCC-1701 and -D, both designated Enterprise, on missions of pure exploration. That was the story, and it was very open. Voyager had a specific point from the beginning, and its finale pretty firmly ended it. DS9 was a little more open than Voyager, but more focused (on Bajor).

I didn't mean to set up a debate comparing them, though I suppose the title implies otherwise. But I think TOS and TNG had the unfair advantage that they got to define their generation. DS9 and Voyager pretty much exist within the TNG generation. They're both set far from the Federation, so there's that level of newness, but TOS was pretty much completely original, and TNG was completely redone for a new generation. Had DS9 and VOY been given proper space, their own generation, I believe they would have more respect in general. For example, we should have just started DS9 a few years ago. When DS9 would end, there would have been 11-12 Star Trek movies (the newest being purely TNG movies) and DS9 would finish with a DS9 movie, then a few movies with TNG/DS9, maybe something new.... and way up in 2009-2011, Voyager would start as its own generation. Having both series already released already, it doesn't seem so good, but I think Paramount could have done better by Trek and for Trekkers by stretching it after TNG.

I hear a lot of people (myself included) say that Star Trek has some of the best characters on TV; I would also say that the actors they use are very good. So I'm just wondering, why is Star Trek all most of them ever do?

Michael Dorn (Worf on TNG/DS9) was in Speed (1994) as the bus driver, but I didn't even know until it was pointed out to me. I can't tell it's him without the Klingon forehead ridges. Brent Spiner (Data, TNG) was in Independence Day (1996) as the lead Area 51 scientist. And of course Patrick Stewart (Picard, TNG) was in both X-Men movies and was very noticeable.

Of all the fake and transparent actors in movies these days, I'd like to see more of them in movies. All of them. Well, maybe not in the same movie, but I'd like to see more movies made with the Trek actors.

A point was raised in another thread that I wanted to start a new discussion on. The point was that TNG's ratings were higher than DS9, VOY, and ENT because of the other sci-fi shows out after TNG, where TNG was pretty much alone.

It would seem to me that Star Trek and Star Wars started out pretty codependent. I'm not sure what, if any, science fiction came before Star Trek TOS, but I know of a few that were out around the same time. Twilight Zone, Lost In Space... Outer Limits? At any rate, ST:TOS pretty much rose above them. Were it not for the success of TOS, I wonder if Star Wars would have been made. I believe that the success of TOS, the audience being so receptive to a story about futuristic space travel and space war that Lucas was able to sell Star Wars. Then after Star Wars came out, the Star Trek films started coming out. As a series, Trek was just TOS and TAS (the cartoon), but shortly after the first Star Wars trilogy, TNG came out, in the 1980s when sci-fi was pretty much dominated by Star Wars and Star Trek.

Then as TNG came to an end, we started seeing a lot of sci-fi, like it came back. Babylon 5, Stargate (the movie... the series came a bit later), and later, the new Star Wars trilogy. So when Deep Space Nine and Voyager came out, they sort of got lost in the shuffle, at least with many viewers.

Should there have been more time between TNG and DS9? If DS9, VOY, and ENT hadn't happened, and the TNG movies had just come out, I think DS9 would be very appropriate for current events. The Cardassian occupation of Bajor, the Bajorans throwing out the Cardassians, and the Federation coming in to help the provisional government get its bearings, and uneasiness on all sides. I think it would be abstract but relevant amidst the events in Iraq.

There was no hurry for Voyager, in my opinion. DS9 was special, in that it was on a space station, that the Federation isn't *really* in control, and you have the greater mix of races. Plus the whole back story with the Bajoran/Cardassian dispute, the Bajoran religion, and later (stuff I haven't seen yet), the Dominion, Marquis, etc. But starting up right after TNG, I think Paramount sold DS9 (and Voyager) short. TNG was so far after TOS that it was OK that everything was different... it was a new series, a new generation. DS9 seemed to be presented as a Star Trek knockoff, a side story that they threw in to keep the franchise going. (I feel it's more than that, but I also feel they could have timed them better.) Then, before DS9 ends, they toss Voyager out there. Voyager would also have been a lot better, had it been given its space.

What do you think?

The last couple days I watched 4 episodes in a day. Kinda scary.

What's up with Season 1 only having 20 episodes as opposed to 26? (Not that I mind getting into Season 2 a few days early.)

Wow, you guys sure weren't kidding about 1x19 "Duet". Halfway in I figured it would be one of the better episodes, but the last minute or two really "made" that episode.

So far, so good. Before, when I said I didn't like DS9, one thing I didn't like was I couldn't find any characters I really liked. At the time. I guess I had only seen a few, spread apart. It's a lot different watching them in order, following the Bajoran/Cardassian politics, and I know there's more to come. I know the name Dominion, but I'm not sure I've actually seen them. I can't wait for that to develop, because now that I'm getting into it, I know there's a lot more to the story ahead.

Look at the space between TOS and TNG. They did the first six movies, and then brought it back some 20 years later. I think they should make a few DS9 and Voyager movies* and hand the next series over to a new generation who will do it completely differently. Because that's what brought Trek back in the 80s, as TNG was a lot different from TOS.

* I did say in the Voyager forum that they should not do a Voyager movie, but you know... if they're going to take a needed 10-15 year break on series, they could sustain the franchise with movies. And besides, DS9 and Voyager movies will be better than some of the tripe that's coming out in the next couple years. Doom movie? Halo movie? If they're making movies based on half-assed video games, they can make DS9 and VOY movies, and they'll probably bring in more money. (And hey, if Stargate could warrant a series, surely DS9 and VOY can warrant movies...)

It's not so much an alternate reality/timeline, but in the Voyager episode where the Doctor is revived in the future, and everyone thinks Voyager was an evil warship... the Evil Voyager alternate reality was pretty neat.

I just watched all of Voyager, and there were a few shots Janeway should have taken, but didn't. I would say Voyager didn't fire on anyone who didn't deserve it. Heck, they didn't fire on many who did deserve it.

Picard wasn't afraid to return fire, but he didn't go looking for fights.

I've never seen an episode of Stargate SG-1. I liked the movie but didn't feel it needed a sequel, let alone a series. Maybe I'll check it out someday, but the idea of a Stargate series is pretty unappealing to me. But who knows, it could be cool. It seems it's been on for a while, so it hasn't been canceled.

I agree, Stargate won't replace Star Trek. I don't think Star Wars eclipsed Trek (better movies, but only 6 of them and no series) and as much as I like Stargate (the movie) it wasn't as good as any of the original Star Wars movies, Clones beat it. Stargate was better than Phantom and Sith... but IMO Star Trek > Star Wars > Stargate.

Though I'm not sure they can do anything more with the Star Trek universe. I was thinking they could do a series based on Starfleet Academy, but I can imagine how unpopular that would be with most Trek fans.

"You hit me!  Picard never hit me!"

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Q's awesome, even when he's annoying.

Since you don't know anything about "Mirror, Mirror" from TOS I would strongly reccomend that you get that episode if it's at all possible and watch it before you watch DS9 season 2's episode "Crossover". You'll need "Mirror, Mirror" for the "back story" of what the Mirror universe is. There's 3 or 4 more Mirror Universe episodes throughout the 7 seasons of DS9 so watching the very first Mirror Universe episode will be worth your time.

 

I don't believe the Mirror Universe was mentioned in TNG or Voyager at all, though it was used in Enterprise recently.

 

Please keep us updated on your Episode progress and thoughts on each one that you wish to comment on. I enjoy getting fresh opinions from TNGers and Voyagers when they watch DS9 for the very first time. In many cases after they watch all of DS9 they bump DS9 up to the top of their "Favorites" list.

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And, will do. I'm starting to like DS9 a bit more. Just watched 3 earlier today, probably watch another 2-4 tomorrow morning.

Sorry ST... I can't bring myself to be attracted to a female character who used to be a guy. The actress is pretty, though.

The actress is gorgeous! And I believe she has been as many women as she has been men :wink2:

 

I missed the Star Wars reference on the duty roster. I'll have to go back and look at that. I remember trying to read the other entries (I always try to read stuff on the screen) but missed a few and didn't pause.

Just in case:

Click For Spoiler

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After seeing the Season 1 episode "Dax" I'm more inclined to agree, now I know a bit more about how Trills work.

Anyone want a good read, read "The Association" by Bentley Little... it's about a homeowners' association which goes a bit too far.

I can see the point of one with some basic rules to keep up the neighborhood, but if you own the home (which happens in the book) I really don't think they should have much right to tell you what to do with your own home. This is supposed to be a free country. How free are we really if we have people going to other peoples' private residences and dictating to them what they can and cannot do there? And what does that say for the patriotism of the people making these rules; maybe they should live in a country that isn't so free, if freedom bothers them so.

Sorry ST... I can't bring myself to be attracted to a female character who used to be a guy. The actress is pretty, though.

I missed the Star Wars reference on the duty roster. I'll have to go back and look at that. I remember trying to read the other entries (I always try to read stuff on the screen) but missed a few and didn't pause.

@VBG -- That's an interesting idea, never thought of that. There have been SO many Voyager episodes where I wish I could have seen what happens "next" with the ships or worlds they leave behind. So it's interesting that DS9 is parked next to that wormhole, as it can watch Bajor, and all the traffic to and from the Gamma Quadrant. So I imagine they'll have no short supply of things to happen, but like you say, they have to stick around for the consequences.

I'll have to have a look out for "In the Pale Moonlight". My two favorites are "The Inner Light" from TNG and "Blink of an Eye" from Voyager. Usually the ones people talk about a lot are pretty good. Speaking of which, I just finished Captive Pursuit, and it was really good. Especially the exchange between Sisko and O'Brien at the end.

I don't know anything about the mirror universe in TOS. I've seen most of the TNG episodes (when I was younger, when it was on TV) and all of Voyager, and I'm not sure it was mentioned.

No... no spoilers please. :o Though recommendations for good episodes are welcome, something to look forward to. Going down the list I tend to spot Q episodes and 2-parters and mark them as 'milestones'... not to mention season finales and starters. Figure the first of the first and last of the seventh are going to be special.

Off to watch "Q-Less". :)

Yes, Defiant! That's what I meant, but I see I actually typed Runabout.

Just watched 1x05 "Babel"... pretty good. Oh, I guess I can do the count-up with my sig.

Defiant is Worf's ship in "First Contact"; is it his in DS9 or is it, like the Runabout(s), commanded by whoever happens to be using it?

After watching "A Man Alone" (1x04) I'm liking the series a bit more.

I had it backwards on Dax; Dax is the hundreds-of-years-old parasitic life form, and Jadzia is the woman. I have to admit her character is interesting.

Not only is Worf not around, they don't have the Runabout (yet). I guess that'll happen in a later season. Like how Voyager tried to keep things new by trading Kes for Seven of Nine, and on a lesser scale, introduced the Delta Flyer.

Well, I watched Emissary (1x01-02) and Past Prologue (1x03). I know I've seen a half-dozen scattered DS9 episodes I've seen when they were on TV, and Emissary must have been one of them, because I kept remembering scenes as I'd see them, though the Wolf 359 scenes were new to me. That has to be the most intense Trek battle in any episode I've seen, possibly even to include the movies. It didn't have the Ent-E smashing into an alien ship or the Ent-D (or Voyager) crash-landing, but there were a couple memorable shots in there.

I can already tell that DS9 is completely different. Sisko is a Commander and doesn't seem to me to be more. He's probably as competent a commander as Riker or Chakotay (given I've seen more of them) but he's nowhere near the leader Picard and Janeway are. Maybe it was the conflict between Sisko and Picard in the first episode, Sisko's chip on his shoulder about Picard/Locutus. With his own people, he seems good... how he's handled Kira, Odo, and Quark so far is promising.

The one I'm not really understanding now is Dax. Let me get this straight -- the Trill are giant parasitic slugs that are transferred from the back of one humanoid to another when the humanoid is about to die? And is Jadzia the name of the slug and Dax the woman? How does that work, the gender switching? No sexuality? And I can't imagine Starfleet having an officer controlled by a parasite... what's up with all this?

Well, like I said, it's a new kind of Trek. Like a tangent. For me, Trek is journeys aboard a starship, with warp travel, away missions, etc. DS9 is completely different in a lot of ways. I believe I'll come to appreciate the differences in format.

Oh yeah. Where's Worf? I don't know where DS9 starts (in what TNG season) but I know after the events in the Generations film, Worf takes an assignment on DS9, and comes back to the Enterprise (temporarily, as they save him from the Borg) in First Contact.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Maquis... I had completely forgotten that they started in DS9. All I know is a good chunk of the Voyager crew started out Maquis and they're not fond of the Cardassians (esp. Torres). Personally I don't blame them in that regard... something about the Cardassians make the Klingons look tame, even though I'm pretty sure many Klingons could take the best Cardassians hand-to-hand.

4 times? 6 times? I'm not sure I could watch Voyager all the way through again. Not for a LONG time. Seeing that all the way through was an adventure in itself. Maybe when I have kids, I can watch it with them. I was going to watch TNG chronologically next, but I think I've seen every TNG episode on TV at some point or another, some twice. I would be tempted to skip so many. But it was more tempting to go with DS9 instead.

I guess I have a problem buying that

I have Elite Force [1], based entirely on Voyager. I don't think EF2 is limited to Voyager. I don't know about EF2, but EF wasn't very authentic to me... mainly because there wasn't a hazard team at all on the show, just Tuvok and whatever security forces he had available to him. And it's not even a very cool idea. It would have been better if, like in the show, you would have away teams made up of actual Voyager characters. Maybe you'd play Tuvok or Chakotay or be able to play different VOY characters and build up their skills. I just think they could put a lot more work into Trek games.

Tuvok. I'd have him school me in the ways of the Vulcans. Him or Spock, but preferrably Tuvok.

The best thing about DS9 is its story arcs ... oh, and it's secondary characters ... great writing ... whopping good push leading up to its final episode ... oh, and its great actors (some aren't so good at first, but really improve and grow on you as you go).

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the first three seasons.  Naturally, there are some "tankers" but that is true with every show.  The characters that I feel changed and evolved the most over the course of the series were Dr. Bashir, Major Kira, and after much consideration I'm going to throw Jadzia Dax onto this list.

 

For the most part, the cast clicked from the very first episode.  Strong chemistry.  If you liked O'Brien on TNG, you're gonna love him on DS9.  Watch the relationship between him and Julian Bashir ... it's a joy to watch.

 

Quark/Rom/Nog are just hilarious.  I used to not like Ferengi episodes, but now having watched the run of this series three times, they are among my very favorites.  Armin Shimmerman's Quark always gets the funniest, best lines in most episodes, but Rene Auberjoinois' Odo is his own brand of comedy.  And Andrew Robinson's Garak is a big plus for this show.  And I think Gul Dukat (Marc Alaimo) is the best Trek villain ever ... even including KAHN.

 

Bajor's spirituality and faith is very different for Star Trek ... yes, you've met species who have religion, but you never get to spend much time focusing on them.  Avery Brooks' Sisko is a reluctant participant who becomes one of the faithful over the course of the series.  I love the episodes about him being the Emissary.

 

It's my favorite Trek because it was the most character driven.  It had a very large cast, the focus on Klingons, Cardassians and Bajorans was very satisfying ... an in-depth study of a handful of races/planets and not just a "alien of the week" thing going on.

 

I envy you seeing all of these for the first time.  When you get to episodes like "The Visitor," "Way of the Warrior," "Rapture," "For the Cause," "In Purgatory's Shadow," "By Inferno's Light," and "In the Pale Moonlight," I hope you'll come out here and tell us what you thought!

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Good idea, post some favorite episodes.

I absolutely hate the Ferengi. Voyager only used them three times that I can recall, maybe a fourth time, and I was thankful. Quark is pretty funny from what I remember. I'm not really an O'Brien fan either as he didn't impress me much on TNG. But I know his character develops beyond his TNG role as he has a wife and child now, so maybe that'll change.

Lookin forward to it. Like I said, I didn't like it when it was on, but I have a feeling if I give it a chance and start watching it, it will hook me.

I just finished watching Voyager all the way through. So far it's my favorite series, but now that I've seen it in its entirety, I see it a little different. Almost like they ran out of ideas in the seventh season. Endgame rocked, but the few leading up to it weren't very good.

I never liked DS9 when it was on. I was bored by the solitary station (even though it looks cool) and none of the characters stuck with me. But I'm hoping to change my views, because I never really gave DS9 a chance. There's one thing about DS9 I haven't read the DS9 fans post, that I just realized. It's the only Trek that doesn't take place on a Starfleet ship or whatever. Not just that it's a station... If I remember correctly, it's either a Bajoran or Cardassian* station that the Federation are occupying because of some agreement. I'm sure the first episode will clear it up. (*I'm pretty sure it's a Bajoran station, but I know the Cardassians occupied Bajor, so I wonder if they might have some claim to it. I only know a little about Bajorans and Cardassians, and I've only heard of the Jem'Hadar, Dominion, etc. So I'm looking forward to the new races.

I don't really know what the point of this topic is... maybe you guys can help me with that. Is there anything you would recommend looking for or whatever? I know I should probably "just watch it" I guess, to start... without spoiling anything major, what's your favorite part of DS9, either on its own, or versus TNG or Voyager. Characters, ship vs. station, alien races, leadership styles, etc.

Let's see where this leads. I'm watching Emissary (1x01-02) for sure, and probably 1 or 2 more, tonight. I sleep in the afternoon and work all night, but I have tonight off. I hate nights off (and rarely have them) because there's nothing to do at night in this town. But I have a computer with DSL and a lot of storage, and I love Star Trek.

I just finished watching Endgame (and the entire Voyager series chronologically!) and I've now seen Endgame three times, and I'm still confused as hell by the ending. Can someone help me with this?

OK, so...

I agree with most of the points everyone has made regarding the article.

The guy that wrote this has some serious issues to sort out with the women in his life (if any).

 

As for Kate Mulgrew,I find her very attractive.Her age just enhances the attractiveness,IMO.Beauty and maturity...quite a combination. :)

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I'm not attracted to TV characters or movie stars for the most part. The woman on Voyager who really drives me nuts though is Torres. I kinda like her daughter more, Ens. Paris in Endgame. But we didn't see her as much, only in that one scene.

I'm equally glad to see a female captain. They should have done it a lot sooner, and Crusher running that ship in All Good Things doesn't count. :lol:

I had this a couple years back, couldn't figure out how to leave the tour and go exploring. They should re-do this, on DVD-ROM, with ALL the ships, using the Unreal or Quake (or Doom3) engine to really let you explore on your own, walk around all over the ship. Or station, if you're exploring DS9.

Just a heads up guys, it's not nearly as cool as it looks.

Maybe when Unreal Tournament 2007 comes out, someone makes a mod that lets you explore the ships. UT'07 will support maps many times larger than maps in games today, and 'stream' parts of them to you as you play, so it won't compromise gameplay... so they say.

If it had to be one of the ships featured in a series, the Enterprise-D for sure. Picard is my second-favorite captain, and it's by a pretty narrow margin. (I think Janeway's marginally better.) And I like the setting of TNG. I wouldn't like to be stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

If it's just between those ships, I think I'd rather be on an Intrepid-class ship than a Galaxy-class.

Well, the Borg do seek order and perfection. It could be that they didn't have a system to divide up the universe as the Federation did, and got that information from assimilating helmsmen, engineers, astronomers, captains, etc.

I thought the Borg Queen may have made references to Earth being in Sector 001, but if they're just using the Federation designation, that fits.

As for the Borg just evolving into what they are.... that's pretty much exactly what happens in that ending of Deus Ex 2. Humans are already bio-augmented via nanites. The conversion from human to what JC Denton is, is much like assimilation. He doesn't have implants per se, but machines augment his abilities. So he's not the spitting image of a Borg, but the idea of part-man part-machine is the same. And when he mass converts every human on earth to what he is, he basically assimilates Earth. Then by creating a collective consciousness and perfected democracy, the Collective is born. If you play both games and let that ending play out, it's pretty easy to figure out what happens, with a Trek slant. All of Earth is now a collective, and everyone starts growing implants. These work their way into the DNA and whatnot, so babies born after that are born with implants. We then evolve, and implants get more and more complex, as they're tied into the DNA and are subject to evolution. Once "adaptation" is acquired through evolution and modifications, it's on... And of course, DX could take place in an alternate reality. The Borg broke into fluidic space, and have messed with time travel. Time and again we see the Borg with something beyond anything the Federation has. Maybe they can cross realities or at one point did.