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MichaelJCO

So Starfleet wasnt military at first

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There has been much debate(among fans and on Star Trek itself) about wether or not Starfleet is primarily a military organization or if ir should/should not serve as one.We seem to have gotten someting in the way of an answer from Enterprise.There was reference to a General transferring troops to the ship to help with the Xindi situation.This implies there is a seperate United Earth military.Makes sense of course- call me stubborn but I still think we should be talking about UESPA until the Federation is founded butI know that aint gonna happen.

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What's UESPA? :martok:

United Earth Space Probe Agency

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Sure it was military! There was a huge debate on this site before VBG made the change weither or not the Federation was formed beacuse of circumstance or beacause humans needed some kind of leadership. I am sure they will explain all this in Enterprise before that show has its finale and that Archer will be involved. In my opinon..if that matters at all..I think that when the human race really got into space exploration that the UESPA wasen't enough and that a more hardened organization was founded...plus I doubt they could have put up with those Vulcans any longer.

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What's UESPA? :martok:

United Earth Space Probe Agency

What's that?

Early operating authority for the first Starship Enterprise (TOS)

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How come I've never heard of it?

Because, by your own admission you have not watched much of TOS.

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise. Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard.. Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship. Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

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I don't even think we should accept UESPA as fact since it was only mentioned in three episodes, and then replaced by Starfleet Command.

 

There both the same thing, they just changed the name for the show. In my opinion, UESPA never existed.

 

Archer made a reference to the "Space Agency" that was responsible for the Terra Nova mission. Since he didn't call it UESPA, I'm going to assume it never existed.

 

Unlike some who are irrationally set on "canon", I can learn to change.

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In my view the name UESPA makes alot more sense than Starfleet given the time peroid.The United Earth govenment was established in 2103 and the last nation-Australia didnt join until 2150.The name "Starfleet" for an organization that had barley left the Sol Sytem seems a little pretenious and grandiose dont you think? Oh well maybe thats part of the reason why the Vulcans were so eager to keep humainty in the Sol System at first.I agree that "canon" cant always be followed but the very defintion of canon is anything thats mentioned in the tv series or movies-by that defintion UESPA had to exist because it was mentioned-more than once even.

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Here is a little blurb I found online that makes good use of the UESPA name

 

 

Home planet: Terra (Earth)

Planet class: M

 

 

 

 

Historical Setting: After the invention of warp drive by Zefram Cochrane in the mid-21st century, humans quite suddenly and unexpectedly explode into interstellar space. Although Earth was still recovering from World War III and the post-nuclear holocaust, there was a fairly self-sufficient human society existing meagerly among the nine planetary systems of the Sol star system. There was just enough economic and social infrastructure to serve as a foundation on which to rebuild their society.

 

Earth was a shaken world but it's survivors were a strong and tired of war. Those who had fed the racism and hatred were dead. When word spread of first contact with the Vulcans in North America, Earth was ready for something new. Humanity's movement into the stars was long overdue. This welcoming into the new frontier was perhapes the greatest gift the Vulcans could have given Earth at that moment in history.

 

Soon the Martian Colonies united under their new constitution to form the Martion Union. The MU came to Earth with mass construction crews and relief teams. The Vulcan's provided the transportation desparately needed to unite the two planets. The Vulcans also showed humans new techniques in cleansing the planet of its nuclear and industrial waste. Together, the Vulcan science teams and the Martian relief crews turned Earth around faster than anyone could have expected. In time, the Vulcans invited a human delegation, led by Dr. Cochrane, to the Vulcan homeworld to formalize relations between the two star systems.

 

The surviving Earth governments, realizing that they needed to centralize, worked with what was left of the New United Nations to create the United Earth Government. This was more than just a treaty between nations. It was a unification of government on a scale unprecedented in all of human history. The Vulcan's neutral and logical views were absolutely crucial in these negotiations.

 

Although extremely successful and relatively swift, Earth's healing efforts were by no means instantaneous or homogeneous. For years, many regions remained barbaric and in near anarchy. And it was almost twenty-five years before the UE relief teams managed to restore order to all of the war torn regions.

 

The year 2173 saw the incorporation of humanities first united space effort: The United Earth Space Probe Agency. Once it was in place, nothing could stop Earth's movement into the final frontier. The first colonies on Alpha Centauri had already been in place for a decade. So, when UESPA went into operation, colonists were lining up for miles around the new spaceports in place all over the planet.

 

San Francisco had been one of the few major cities that had managed to remain relatively untouched thoughout WWIII. Therefore, United Earth headquarters, in Paris, set UESPA headquarters was in San Francisco along with the largest of their new launch centers and Earth Force headquarters. Earth Force was the new united military branch of the planet whose main goal in the early days was to coordinate relief efforts.

 

With the launch of the first interplanetary exploratory ship, the SS Valiant, Earth marked its entrance into a new renaissance of human thought and culture. The new shipyards on Luna and Mars could not keep up with the need for ships. Many private ship yards opened up boosting both the space movement andthe economy. Humans were ready to boldly expand beyond their solar system and nothing would stop them.

 

Colonies popped up on every planet, planetoid, moon, and asteroid that humans could find in more than 50 cubic light years. In fact, UESPA couldn't keep up with all of the colony ships that left Sol. As a result, uncharted colonies showed up everywhere. It wasn't uncommon for an exploratory vessel to show up at an unexplored star system to find a thriving human colony residing there, greeting the explorers with smiles and open arms.

 

This period of unhindered human expansion went on for about 85 years. It was a time of growth for human beings. With the Vulcans as their cautious guides, Terrans began meeting a handfull of their galactic neighbors. Then, in the year 2156 humans encountered what would become the greatest threat ever to their young interplanetary civilization.

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Here's another one

 

 

Dadelus Class - NCC-100 (2146-2196)

This is the only class of vessel that actually predated the founding of the Federation and Starfleet. The United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA), the forerunner to Starfleet Command, constructed the USS Dadelus registry number NCC-3000 after significant technological advances made the current Explorer Class vessels obsolete. Initially, very few of these vessels were constructed, due to their large size and cost. During the Romulan Wars (2156-2160), an alliance was formed between several space faring races to push back the Romulan incursion. More vessels of this class were able to be created since the costs and materials could be spread out over four different star systems. After the Battle of Cheron and its ensuing peace treaty, the six remaining Dadelus Class vessels were overhauled and refit for deep space exploration, the first of the heavy cruiser class. They became the cornerstone of Starfleet, the agency that replaced the UESPA after the incorporation of the United Federation of Planets. Several more ships of this class were constructed over the next twenty years, although each member planet preferred to have its own ships serving the fleet instead of integrated crew members. The Dadelus Class served as the front line for the Federation defensively and as first contact vessels. In 2196, Starfleet Command gave the order to decommission the vessels due to their advancing age and obsolete technology. They were replaced with the newer Baton Rouge Class.

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Are these from the shows or are these from websites. There is a differnce, since "canon" is what we see on screen.....

 

Starfleet implies the ambition of humans to travel the stars. Not that they can, but that they want to .

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How come I've never heard of it?

Because, by your own admission you have not watched much of TOS.

OK, that doesn't answer my question. Was it ever mentioned in a future series?

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How come I've never heard of it?

Because, by your own admission you have not watched much of TOS.

OK, that doesn't answer my question. Was it ever mentioned in a future series?

No, it was only mentioned in TOS, (Charlie X, Tomorrow is yesterday)

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These are both from websites. However my points about the term UESPA is that #1 its is canon because it was mentioned in the show and #2 I think it makes more "historical" sense to use this term than Starfleet in Enterprise based on what we know about Earth history in the late 21st-22nd centuries(canon and otherwise) #3- I know this will never happen but I will still watch and enjoy Enterprise .

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

I disagree. I think Starfleet started out as a space program with a naval command structure and eventually became a space program/military hybrid. :)

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

I disagree. I think Starfleet started out as a space program with a naval command structure and eventually became a space program/military hybrid. :)

If they aren't military then why do they have weapons?

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

I disagree. I think Starfleet started out as a space program with a naval command structure and eventually became a space program/military hybrid. :)

If they aren't military then why do they have weapons?

To keep their ship from being taken over or destroyed. Same reason why Museums have security guards. :)

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

I disagree. I think Starfleet started out as a space program with a naval command structure and eventually became a space program/military hybrid. :)

If they aren't military then why do they have weapons?

To keep their ship from being taken over or destroyed. Same reason why Museums have security guards. :)

Not a good choice for comparison. From my experience most security guards are not armed.

 

As for the weapons being there to keep the ship from being overtaken or destroyed, the same could be said with all of the Enterprises but Starfleet in TOS and TNG era was still considered to be a combination exploration/military organization.

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

but by what your saying, navy, that still implies military, and clearly he borrowed military personell that are not starfleet, so starfleet doesnt have its own military personell yet. i beleive that they must've always had a defensive military attitude, look at the weapons on the ships, but now your talking militaristic ideals of war, there taking military personell into battle. thus turning a defensive posture into an all encompassing offensive/defensive military unit. does this make any sense to anyone?

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Takara_Soong,

 

It's 2:33am, so it's too late to think. Everything blurry and hard to see what the heck I'm typing! :) Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying our discussion here and I love your opinions! G'Night! :)

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I understand.

 

Starfleet is a military, but not the kind that goes out waging war. If I had to pick a branch of the US Armed Services, it would have to be like the Coast Guard.

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I noticed the reference in you are referring to in Enterprise.  Archer informs Admiral Forrest that he has contact a general, and that the general will be transferring troops aboard..  Forrest then asks if Archer is sure that he is going to be comfortable having the military on the ship.  Archer responds by saying that the crew will have no problem with non starfleet personel.

 

This does lead me to believe that Starfleet is not associated with the military at this point.

Starfleet could still be military. There are many branches of the military. Starfleet has always been like the navy. I think the reference in The Expanse could be viewed as if a naval ship brought army personnel onboard.

I disagree. I think Starfleet started out as a space program with a naval command structure and eventually became a space program/military hybrid. :theking:

If they aren't military then why do they have weapons?

To keep their ship from being taken over or destroyed. Same reason why Museums have security guards. :andorian:

Not a good choice for comparison. From my experience most security guards are not armed.

 

As for the weapons being there to keep the ship from being overtaken or destroyed, the same could be said with all of the Enterprises but Starfleet in TOS and TNG era was still considered to be a combination exploration/military organization.

A lot of security officers carry weapons. Also, I know many people that do scientific research and most of them carry weapons when they are going into rainforrests and such to do research simply for protection, that does not make them military.

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This was an interesting debate and while I firmly believe that the Federations Starfleet is/was military it could be that Earths Starfleet was more of an extension of NASA. Earth already had it's military services and a separate space agency. It wasn't until the formation of the Federation that a Federation Military was needed and Starfleet was the logical choice.

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As a longtime ENT fan, I do recall the chat between Archer and Forrest-and the seeming implication of some seperation of entities. Back then, perhaps there was a division of actual organiztions; perhaps the MACOs were a yet-holdover from the early days of a united earth, to serve primarily as an intrasytem and colonial security group for all humanity, a tactical section, ready to go. as a SEAL would for the US , at a moment's notice-with likely their own dedicated vessels, as with the Colonial Marines of ALIENS...a close cohort. In the novel(derived from the inset-in-various novels miniseries) ''Starfleet:Year One-an interesting, if not canon, take on ST before Kirk, the debate, amidst the aftermath of the Romulan Wars, is the crucial issue for humans, and the fledgling UFP-indeed, the then-new Starfleet, '' Are we to be a military organization, or an exploratory one?''...in the end, it's indicated that both sides-officers of the earth forces' long fight with the faceless Empire-and the discovery-first scientific people, begin to come together, as the new Daedelus Class marks the first foray into the greater unknown. Starfleet in ENT has taken on the Xindi crisis-based far from Earth's shore, and I would venture that it would be the primary means of dealing with such a threat. Had the probe been succesfully destroyed-the inital one-Starfleet would have been the more obvious entity to do so. I look at Fleet's objectives, militarily, more on a broader-based scope-withexploration being the primary mission profile of all Starfleet ships, though inter-solar and colonial patrol would likely be as important a function, as it became in the more nonhuman-integrated Starfleet.

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Here's my thought...

 

Starfleet started as an extension of a joint Earth Space Program. The reason Enterprise carried weapons is because they are going into the unknown. I don't know how many people, even explorers or diplomats, would sail into the waters off Somalia without some kind of protection. The same could be said for Enterprise.

 

However...

 

As time goes on, Earth, and later the Federation, realises that while Earth is paradise, very few other places even come close. The Galaxy is a rough place. So Starfleet evolves. Enterprise carries relatively few weapons for a ship her size. Two guns, two missile/torpedo launchers, on a ship the size of an Iowa Class Battleship. By the time of Kirk's Enterprise, The need for armed ships was more obvious. Kirk's vessel was more combat ready. We didn't see a while lot in the Original Series, but in the movies, the fact that the Enterprise and Enterprise A both have at least a half-dozen twin mounts for phasers, but still only two torpedo tubes. If you look at Excelsior, she is even more heavily armed, with 9 or 10 twin mounts on the saucer alone! Then we get to the Next Generation. The Galaxy class has ten of the most powerful phasers ever fitted to a starship, and three total torpedo tubes <One is only usable when the saucer seperates>. Voyager, a ship 1/4 the size of the Galaxy class, has a dozen of the same phaser arrays, and four torpedo tubes ready to go. Defiant has at least four phaser cannons, possibly a dorsal phaser array, and aft torpedo capabilities on a ship significantly smaller than the NX-01. And then there's the Enterprise E. 6-7 Torpedo tubes, and 12-15 phaser arrays. Starfleet sure got the hint that not everyone is out there to play nice. It took them a while, but they did evolve from being explorers with weapons for defense to being a capable military force. I also think, in the aftermath of the Dominion War, Starfleet would establish a permanent Strategic and Tactical Command, with purpose-built warships maintained at the ready. You just never know when you've only explored 20% of your home galaxy...

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