welfconfed

Empire Magazine awarded 4/5 Stars, saying, "for the first time in the franchise, the Enterprise is a genuine thrill-ride"; however, it also notes that "Very much like its dynamic young cast, this Trek is physical and emotional, sexy and vital even, but it is not cerebral."

So in other words, lots of special effects, violence, and sex, but without all that pesky thinking to get in the way.

Star trek has been fighting to remain cerebral since Roddenberry wrote the first TOS pilot. It sounds like that fight has ended.

I'm not suggesting to anyone that they not go see it. I plan on watching it just on the off chance it will prove me wrong. (I really don't want to be right about this.)

The Phage made the Vidiians into the textbook villains you love to hate.

True, but they were also some what sympathetic. The Vidiians were just trying to survive.

There have been many examples of circumstances hitting the reset button on human development, the destruction of the Minoans, the fall of Rome, Etc. The history of technological advancement is far from a uninterrupted line from discovery to discovery. It's really quite fascinating.

What welconfed points out, is that these are ancient, but to a point of basic thought behind, or essential fuction, 'versions' of technology of today...remember the holodeck version of DaVinci on Voyager, when he showed Janeway the arm of (exact spelling uncertain) 'Iphis'?. a crude approximation of a mechanical device-being? And what of the abacus? It's considered, at its most basic, the first calculator-that's the premise intended, for wahtver my opinion may be worth. Even if it won't get you a Starbuck's with another dollar

Exactly. Good examples Voyager recruit.

I would argue that Shinzon ceased to be Praetor at the time the Romulan fleet turned against him. He still had effective command of the Scimitar, and possibly the rest of the Remans, but that was it. As Data said, the Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet. When that power base was lost, so was his control over the Empire. To argue that he was still Praetor while under fire from Romulan guns is ridiculous. If the Romulan government still considered him to be Praetor then why weren't the crew and commander of the Romulan ships charged with treason? As Donatra said, "We consider this a matter of internal security for the Empire. We regret you've become involved." or words to that effect.

Perhaps, but they didn't 'turn' til after the 'blood on our hands' conversation. I never suggested that he was the Praetor after the attack began, only that when the conversation was taking place the Empire hadn't turned on Shinzon or elected Tal'Aura. However, technically it could be argued that because of the nature of his obtaining his title, ie slaughteing the Romulan senate, he was never REALLY the Praetor at all.

With the loss of the Scimitar and Shinzon, would the Remans have enough to stand up to the rest of the Empire militarily? Probably not. The Remans lost their most powerful weapon. The Romulans lost two ships (that could still be repaired) and a room full of politicians. You might be right that their motivation to coming to the Enterprise's aid was to prevent the dishonorable destruction of Earth, but you can also bet that keeping the Romulan Empire for the Romulans entered into their calculation.

I couldn't agree more. Shinzon was a threat to the Empire, but I doubt that he could have made it back to Romulus. If he had murdered Earth, Starfleet and the Imperial fleet would both be looking for him. (My bet would be on Starfleet getting him first.)

The Romulan government - what was left of it after the coup anyway - knew Shinzon had this weapon of mass destruction. The fleet commanders wanted him to use it. In fact they were frustrated that he wasn't using it fast enough. Do you really think they would be surprised to learn that Shinzon was going after Earth? They knew all along that was the plan. They also knew that his weapon was genocidal. WMDs aren't exactly surgical strike weapons. They knew that any use of the weapon would mean the obliteration of a planet. That was fine, as long as they trusted Shinzon. When they stoped trusting him they had to eliminate him because they just might be next on his list.

I would have to rewatch the movie, but I'm not sure that the nature of the attack was spelled out, didn't it come as a surprise to the romulans that he was not going to use the conventional fleet? (That may have been in one of the deleted scenes)

I agree that self preservation colored Com. Suran thinking, but Donatra seemed to be sincere.

Tal'Aura didn't become Praetor. (At least not until the post-Nemesis novels) Shinzon was still Praetor and commander in chief of the Empire.

Com. Suran didn't outrank Donatra, but judging from their apparent ages, its safe to assume that Suran was senior Commander and leading member of the conspiracy on the scene.

(We have seen Romulan commanders perform duties that in Starfleet would be performed by Admirals, so its possible that within the Commander rank, seniority would determine a Commander in charge of one vessel or several.)

Com.Suran helped Shinzon and believed that the RSE would defeat the Federation. So when Donatra tells him, "Are you truly prepared to have your hands drenched in blood? He's not planning to defeat Earth, he's planning it's annihilation, and his sins will mark us and our children for generations.", she isn't trying to convince him of the potential defeat of Romulus, he has already killed his own govt. to get a chance to defeat the Federation, but that victory through holocaust is no victory. They were soldiers, not mass murders.

I'm a wee bit dubious - I mean, the Romans didn't drive around in trains did they? They used horses. And built arches. This sounds a bit like "Wild Wild West" a la Roman times...

Thats the whole point, they had the tech to eventually develop trains etc., but cultural bias (not to mention a slave based economy) prevented it from advancing past the toy/oddity stage.

A more recent example would be the 19th century U.S., the north industrialized while the south remained agrarian.

The captain of the Valdore, Commander Donatra, was only able to get approval to attack Shinzon after she confronted her superior officer.

What was the argument that she used, that if the Romulan Empire allowed Earth to be destroyed then the blood would be on their hands. They had to act to defend billions of innocent lives. It didn't matter to them that they were the enemy.

If they had let Earth die, then they could have blamed Shinzon and the Remans. Starfleet would have helped hunt down the Remans and in the long run the Romulan Star Empire would have been in a position of strength they haven't been in since the late 23rd century.

At a moment when the Federation was about to be crippled and it was in the Romulans best interest to just sit there and let the Remans do the dirty work (and take the blame) The Romulan MILITARY acted to preserve life and peace.

All we know about the post-Nemesis Romulan Empire is that the two sides were interested in talking. That does not mean they will become allies or even even normalize relations, just that there is potential for it.

 

I think it is likely that the Remans will try another uprising within the Empire or at least take militaristic measures to keep what they have. In fact I even think the Federation would support such a move. Sure the Federation doesn't trust the Remans, but it doesn't fully trust the Romulans either and would welcome the chance for additional political upheavel within the Empire.

In regards to the timetable of improved relations, I agree that it won't happen anytime soon, but I think that the Enterprise and the Valdore fighting side by side to save Earth and free the Empire from the Remans will go along way in changing minds on both sides of the neutral zone. (Heck even Worf was impressed that the Romulans fought with honor.)

However, I seriously doubt that the UFP will support a Reman state. They not only murdered the Romulan Senate, they attempted to destroy Earth with a Thalaron weapon. If anything, the Federation will probably help the Romulans locate and eliminate the Remans weapons and facilities.

If your really interested in the strategic situation post Nemesis, you should check out my threat assessment in the thread "Facing the Nemesis: The Future of the Empire" and give your views on it. (But be warned, it is vey much from the Romulan POV)

The first century Roman Empire had people who had invented the steam engine, analogue computers, and primative robotics (used in temples or for the amusement of the rich).

 

Where do you get this from?

Steam engine-The Aeolipile, created by Hero of Alexandria in the 1st century A.D.

Analogue computer-The Antikythera mechanism, discovered in 1901 in a ancient ship wreck off the greek island of Antikythera, it uses a complex series of gears to calculate astronomical movements and could date back as far as the 2nd century B.C.

primative robotics- 100s of examples, some far earlier than the 1st century. Inventors include Philo of byzantium as well as, again, Hero of Alexandria.

As I've said in previous posts, I don't believe that the Remans were slaves or that they were justified in their attempted mass murder.

I do agree that the Empire and the Federation will probably become allies. If the UFP could make nice with the Klingons, then I'm sure that they can ally with the much more peaceful and civilized Romulans.

Terrific analysis there. Like it! As VGRBABE said, it would make a great book, this scenario...in an alternate timeline. BTW..THANKS for reviving this by-now older post of mine!!!

Thanks, I've thought about expanding some of these ideas into stories in the fanfiction section.

Hey, welconfed, I just had to say, as elsewhere, I am fascinated by your 'what may have been' analysis of ancient human history. Vulcans meeting advanced Romans...and in them seeing echoes of their offshoot Romulan brethren. O-kay! Here's another 'alternate history' that would make a great book, IMO...

Thanks, I love Trek and alternate history. When you put the two together...

I would like to add even more canonical evidence disproving the idea of Reman slavery.

In the 4th season episodes of Enterprise "United" and "Aenar", not only are Remans on Romulus serving in the Romulan military, but they are serving as the armed personal guard of a Romulan Senator.

The DVD deleted scenes of those episodes even show the Remans taking Romulans, including Admiral Valdore, under arrest.

This would seem to indicate that the Remans have not been slaves for at least over two centuries before Star Trek: Nemesis.

The phage effected the Vidiians about 2,000 years before first contact with voyager in 2371. They already had a reputation as artists and explorers.

We can therefore assume they had interstellar contacts and/or travel in the late 300's. Not only could they have helped to form a federation type alliance, but it could have happened as early as the 400's-500's AD.

According to the Vaadwaur, the borg had asimilated only a handfull of worlds by the late 1400's. With a homegrown Federation in the Delta Quad for almost a thousand years before that, odds are the Borg collective would probably never exist. The only major threat to the 'Alliance' I can think of is the Voth, who have been in the area for milions of years.

If the Alliance can defeat or make peace with the Voth, then it could go on to explore the Gamma Quad and possibly upset the Dominion's consolidation of power.

No Dominion, no Borg, and a peaceful Federation in control of the Delta Quad, and possibly large parts of the Gamma Quad.

All centuries before Humans or Vulcans reach the stars.

All prevented by an epidemic.

The 10,000 year reference was Weyoun saying that "The Dominion hasn't surrendered in battle since it was founded ten thousand years ago.

The 2,000 year references were from the first appearance of Weyoun in "To the Death" and the female changeling in "What you leave behind".

Federation level tech is really all you need to maintain control of an interstellar empire.

As to the 1600 years of development, we can't assume the same speed of advancement as the Federation.

Cultural bias has a huge effect on tech development. The first century Roman Empire had people who had invented the steam engine, analogue computers, and primative robotics (used in temples or for the amusement of the rich).

Using the development of the steam engine (which, in our culture, kicked off the industial revolution about 200 years ago) as an example, Rome should have developed 2009 level tech about the 300's AD and (using trek history) 24th century Federation level tech about the 600's AD

Which would create a scenario were the Vulcans, still recovering from their world war, would be contacted by the technologically superior 'Romanized' Humans around the 400's, but I digress.

First, we don't know how old the Dominion really is.

We have three references to its age: an early Weyoun clone and the female founder mentioned in seperate episodes that the Dominion was two thousand years old, while weyoun 8 made the only reference to the ten thousand year age.

I would say two thousand is more likely.

Second, we don't know how they define the Dominion.

Is the Dominion's creation the first formal annexation of territory under it's domination, or is it when the Founders first decided to protect themselves by dominating the solids? If the latter, then it may have taken centuries for the changelings to slowly gain enough power to form a real interstellar government.

Even after the creation of the Dominion as an empire, the Founders probably moved slowly, securing their holdings, creating and/or improving the Vorta and Jem'hadar before expanding. If that's the case, then their exposure to new cultures and new technology would be very limited. (Possibly the reason for Odo and the others being sent away)

Also, given the conservative nature of their regime, even once the dominion took its present form, technological development was probably slow. Without outside threats or concern over your populations living conditions= tech stagnation.

I would watch B-5 if it was syndicated again. Good series. Very rich in detail. The Shadows were such a powerful, enigmatic threat. Again, nice having Bill Mumy on board. And, Mila Furlan was on ''Lost'' for a season or two-and reappeared briefly this past season. AND Walter Koenig, as 'Bester', starred on B5 sometimes. Keep him outta my head!!

You're right about B5 and its detailed history and the mythology of the 1st ones, Vorlons vs the shadows, etc. Also, anyone who doubts walter koenig's acting ability should check out his work on B5.

How the frak can you have a Sci-Fi poll without Battlestar Galactica?

Because it was started back in 2004?

I agree with you, no one NOW could possibly overlook battlestar galactica. It is the best non-trek sci-fi series to come along in the last 10-15 years.

Though it must be said that even if it is non-trek, it was created by a man who learned most of what he knows during his long association with trek.

(After BSG, babylon 5 is also a favorite. I'm a sucker for space opera.)

That's a good question and I thought about it myself the last time I watched the episode. What would we do if food shortages ever hit - would we share what we had with everyone and when that was gone let everyone starve or just give food to only those most likely to survive and let the rest starve imediately so all would not be lost?

 

The next question is whether you could live yourself if you got food and your neighbor didn't?

 

I think he'd still be a monster in people's eyes because of what he did - he killed people outright even if technically his way would have kept everyone from starving. And he made a value judgment on people's lives - that alone most people would find unforgiveable.

I agree that public opinion would have ruled Kodos a monster, if the truth came out. However, who would be left to tell the tale but Kodos and those he 'saved'. Without the full horror coming out in the open, wouldn't the Federation Council simply ignore the whole distasteful affair.

After having recently rewatched "The Conscience of the King", a statement made by Kodos the executioner began to make me wonder.

After a fugal infection destroyed most of the food supply of the colony of Tarus IV, Governor Kodos had half the colonists (the half he saw as unfit) killed. However the deaths were not necessary as the relief ships made it to the colony in time to prevent mass starvation.

Kodos stated that had the relief ships not arrived sooner than expected that he would have been seen as a hero for saving half the colony from starvation.

My question is was he right? If not a hero, would he have been seen as someone forced to take drastic action and the incident swept under the rug?

In Nemesis, they said that Remans had been used as shock troops and cannon fodder during the Dominion War.

While you are correct that the Remans served the Empire in some of the most vicious battles of the war, the idea that they were only 'cannon fodder' was Picard and crews 'interpretation' of the available data. (again I would encourage anyone interested in the Romulan/Reman relationship to read and contribute to the thread in the Romulan embassy, An Empire Divided: Reconsidering Reman slavery)

While I think it is inaccurate to refer to the Remans as a "slave race" (check out the thread about the Remans in the Romulan Embassy) I do agree that the Remans have never been seen serving along side Romulans as equals, so a Romulan crew serving under a Reman 'co-captain' is extremely unlikely.

I believe it was the CO and XO of the Warbird.

Most episodes deal with the world of Star Fleet, which isn't (for the most part) a military organization. Andorians, being a violent, warrior race, would have little interest in peaceful exploration.

I'm not suggesting that their aren't Andorians in Star Fleet, only that they, because of their culture, never embraced Star Fleet with the same gusto that Humanity did. I also think the same could be said about Vulcan culture, though for the opposite reason. (ie Human aggressiveness)

I think that City on the Edge of Forever has to do with history repeating itself.

 

But the mirror universe was created when Zefram Cochrane killed the Vulcans instead of greeting them when they first met, according to the Enterprise episode "In A Mirror, Darkly"

Cochrane's murder of the Vulcans and the capture of their ship didn't create the mirror universe, but by using advanced Vulcan technology, it was the begining of the Terran Empire as an interstellar government.

Remember that in part 2 Archer referred to the Empire having "endured for centuries" , if we assume that means only two centuries, that still puts the beginning of the Empire around the mid-20th century.

(around the same time as world war II)

However, the Empire may have existed far longer, Phlox (again in part 2) told T'pol that he had read through some of the classic literature of the "other" ( Federation) universe and found their versions of the characters weak and compassionate.

Now the real question is, what is considered 'classic' literature?

Post-ww3 works, !9th century, or perhaps going all the way back to the Illiad. (as referenced in Diane Duane's Novel "Dark Mirror")

The dark seeds that lead to the Empire may have been sown in the Human heart from the very beginning.