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Bakula Bird

Reed's Little Secret...

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My friend and i were sitting watching 'Canamar' last night and she pointed out how remarkably camp Reed can be sometimes... I mean, yeah his eyes were out on stalks in Broken Bow when those dancers were in his face and then there was '7 days and 7 nights' when he was very eager to 'get some', but he does has a certain 'quality' that makes us wonder if he just might at some point be the first homosexual character on ST... I don't know exactly what it is, it might have something to do with his mannerisms and his current habit of moving from side to side like he is doing a dance (for this just watch closely in 'canamar' and 'future tense') but of course it could just be something from nothing!

 

Any other thoughts on the subject? I think it would be soooo great and show even more diversity in the characters than ENT has presented us with already! But of course it would take him away from T'Pol, which would upset some folks who are eager for a romance between those two... but then of course apart from T'Pol's 'boyancy aids' she is actually rather a masculine character anyway, which could explain an attraction... hmmm

 

(Can i just say that i am not criticising Reed, i love him, just pondering on some recent behaviour!)

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I do not think to would be "great" because it would, in my opinion, create a negative portrayal of the English in the US market and probabily set a trend that many would find insulting should it become a generalisation of the British persona.

 

I do not mean to sound confrontational to you but I just wanted to highlight the view of someone who comes from the UK. To better impose this issue on a character I believe it would be more appropriate to use a nationality that is representative of the majority of the characters on the show (i.e. Americans) as it would help to highlight the fact that the actions of such a character are not the established norm for a member of that nationality.

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i'm from the UK too, and i still think it would be great. Yeah i guess it would be a bit typical that the british guy has the issues, but i don't believe it would be negative in the slightest!

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If you've read my thread on gay people in Star Trek then you will notice a lot of opposition to gays and them being in Star Trek in general. You should not equate camp behaviour with being gay. It is one thing for a man to act affeminately, and another for a man to have sex with another man. Not all camp people are gay, and not all gay people are camp. If he is gay then it should be dropped into the series as a side thought and not as a feature.

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... but then of course apart from T'Pol's 'boyancy aids' she is actually rather a masculine character anyway, which could explain an attraction... hmmm

Boyancy aids?????? I'm sure you mean buoyancy aids, but still.........really!!!! :P :tear: :oops:

 

:D :P :lol:

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oh do calm down, i'm not saying that a camp person must be a gay person, just that Reed is camp sometimes and so stereotypically the possibility is there. I did say that it could also be something from nothing, just airing thoughts is all.

 

I also wasn't saying that they should turn it into some kind of major story arc, only that we had noticed that it was a possibility and that it might arise at some point in the future.

 

I have to say that i find it disgracefully narrow minded that there are people out there who are so against homosexuality in ST. It is after all supposed to be a better and more balanced Earth that they are living in and i refuse to believe that there will be no such thing as homosexuality in the future.

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Ok, being serious now. I really like what Marina Sirtis said in a recent BBC interview:

 

"I'm going to give the answer that Gene [Roddenberry] always used to give," she said, "and that is, how do you know who was gay and who wasn't? They didn't walk around with a sign saying 'I am gay'. So any of those people that you met as guest stars or saw sitting in Ten Forward or whatever, how do you know they weren't gay? He just didn't want it to be a 'thing'. He felt that by the 24th century, it wouldn't be a 'thing' and one wouldn't have to make a point of it."

 

I totally agree with the above.

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I would love it if there were a gay character on ENT. I had similar thoughts about Malcolm at one time, but I doubt that Bermaga and Paramount will ever go that route. Now it seems they've given too much evidence of Malcolm's heterosexual lust. Rather pitiful in this day and age but what can you do, Bakula Bird? Notice the objection to Malcolm possibly being gay because the Brits "will be stereotyped that way" as if being gay is morally bad. Plus, who with a brain in their head will generalize to the entire British population? There wouldn't be any little British people if all British men were gay. :tear: People stereotype all Americans as stupid. Personally, I'd rather be thought gay than stupid.

 

What irks me is Berman's insistence in print that homosexuality needn't be highlighted by, for example, two same sex crewmembers holding hands because heterosexuality isn't highlighted. I actually read that in print. Helloooooooo......excuse me, sir? In "Precious Cargo," was Trip grabbing Kaitaama and shoving his tongue down her throat an example of diplomacy? Their spooning together half dressed in the next shot with his uniform slung over a rock is not indicative of Trip being a heterosexual? And here I thought they'd had intercourse. I guess Mr. Berman only meant to imply that they'd played a naked card game. Silly me. :D

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I don't see anything wrong with having a gay character,there will be gays in Archers time as well as Picards time.I would not want them to focus on a gay storyline but if we see Reed or someone holding hands with another of the same gender it would not bother me.They certainly show enough heterosexual action between people why not throw a gay couple into the mix be it two men or two women.

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Guest Ktrek

I hate to get in on this controversy but it seems to me that there is a difference in Star Trek promoting a message of tolerance of homosexual behaviour and flaunting it around as an acceptable lifestyle. If they were to do so they would lose alot of their audience and would they pick up enough viewers from the gay community to make up for their losses? I doubt it!!! I think most people are accepting of an implied heterosexual scene, like the one between Trip and Kaitaama that was referred to, but I don't think they would tolerate a similiar scene with Trip and the Captain in bed together. I can be tolerant of behaviour I find unaccetable but I don't have to have it flaunted in my face. As much as I respect the "rights" of gay people the 98% of us in the world who are NOT gay have rights too and we are the "majority"!!!!!

 

Ktrek

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I would not consider seeing a same gender couple holding hands walking down the corridor of the ship flaunting it.Now if there was a same gender love scene that would be flaunting it.

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MoulinRouge I love your answer! :blink: Thanks for the support and i totally agree with everthing u said

 

It is difficult to know what to do in that kind of situation i guess, but i mean, what exactly do u class as 'flaunting it'? I remember Joss Whedon getting his wrists slapped for trying to include a lesbian kiss on Buffy and at first the scene was cut but i guess he won his case because it happens a lot now and i don't have a problem with that. Each to their own. As far as i am concerned, it is no different to seeing a girl and a guy kissing. It is a declaration of affection and i think that's great. I certainly wouldn't have any problem with hand holding and what not on ENT. At the end of the day, whatever they do has to be suitable for the audience at home, a sex scene is not suitable for the audience watching ENT, hetero or not, so that's most definitely out of the question.

 

But to be honest, i think that a character that has a positive experience with 'coming out' is a much better example to set the audience than Kirk hopping in and out of bed with a different woman every week...

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Actually this possibility was discussed in the issue of TV Guide that introduced Enterprise. That's why I was surprised in Shuttle Pod one when they began discussing Ruby. I think part of the Trip/Reed friendship is that they can go to Raisa and act like morons together - it wouldn't be the same if they didn't have that in common.

 

I find plots based on romance boring that's why I watch SciFi . A Night in Sick Bay and Precious Cargo are two of my least favorite episodes. They did nothing to develop the characters being highlighted and they had no real plot. ANIS actually made Captain Archer look like an imbecile. And Trip was much more precious trying to evade Phlox's wife than rolling in the hay with Kaitaama (not that the man doesn't possess sex appeal - he has some major appeal).

 

I would rather see some intrigue and story line. Let other series deal with the romance stuff.

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And Trip was much more precious trying to evade Phlox's wife than rolling in the hay with Kaitaama (not that the man doesn't possess sex appeal - he has some major appeal).

 

Ditto. He's yummy enough to lick off a spoon with chocolate sauce. :blink: He was rather precious when he refused to take some free poontang by sleeping with Phlox's wife even though Phlox didn't mind. I actually found it endearing that we were shown how far his relationship with Malcolm has progressed by seeing that Trip had confided his problem with Feezal to Malcolm.

 

I hear you Bakulabird. What is "flaunting" it? Wasn't Trip "flaunting" his heterosexuality in Precious Cargo? Wasn't Archer flaunting his heterosexuality in ANIS? It's all a matter of degree. Don't some people still find sex outside of marriage immoral? The unmarried Trip and Kaitaama definitely did the horizontal mambo. Isn't that considered "flaunting" immoral behavior? All gays are asking is that it be acknowledged they exist in this "perfect-to-be" future. Heck, I'd settle for seeing two guys rubbing gel on each other in decon at this point. :devil: Trip and Archer have such lovely shoulders, and they're such good friends that they should feel totally comfortable with one another.....he he he he......but I wouldn't wager paycheck that Bermaga would be so enlightened. T'Pol and Hoshi can slather gel on each other, but Trip and Archer? Don't bet the farm.

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I think that homosexuality could have a place on Star Trek, but it should be subtle. I remember having this conversation with my brother (who was gay) before he passed away. I remember him saying that it would be interesting, but that it would cost the show a lot of viewer and that it would not be worth it. He believed that straight viewers would loose interest because of the controversy that is prevelant in our society. He also believed that some members of the gay community would believe that Star Trek was simply trying to cash in on their way of life, and could possibly loose interest.

 

Myself, I have not problem with it. But unfortunately I agree that the Star Trek franchise could suffer damage due to small minded people who cannot understand that there is room for all of us in this world both now and in the future. But if they do it, again it should be subtle.

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ok first off why are we even having a converstion like this to begin with. sexual orientaton on a family show shouldnt be a big deal. as far as homosexuality and sex outside of marriage, think about it. going to the religious side heteralsexual relations are what is condoned, outside of marriage isnt, but to some its just a peice of paper. if they feel the love, and relationship they can overlook the peice of paper. on the flipside homosexuality is "an abomination". therefore people in general are going to have a much harder time with that, than sex outside of marriage. in my oppinion, as much as i LOVE T'POL any kind of sexual undertones in a show that is supposed to be family oriented should be very discreet, and be respectful to the majority, or it will lose its viewers. i myself am a heteralsexual, and have been with my wife for 15 years. but i still LOVE to look, afterall im not dead. i like to think i am an open minded person about sexual orientaion, and other things, but at the same time you gotta admit as "enlightened" as most people think they are, there is still going to be some reservations or back thoughts on subjects they find different than their own views. right or wrong thats just the way it is. so in retrospect i think that they should leave the whole sexual oreientaion thing the way it is. after all how do we know what the writers have in mind. some of you think that he may be gay, others think no way. so why should they come right out and say one way or the other, in turn upseting one or the other of you. well thats my thoughts on the subject what do you think.

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i wouldnt mind a few subtle same sex things but nothing big. I think that if Roddenberry didn't even want opposite gender romances, then i'm sure he wouldn't approve of this, but times HAVE changed. i geuss that i wouldnt mind it, but i still dont think reed is gay.

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I'm sure a lot of folks freaked out back in the 1960s when William Shatner and Nichelle Nichols made television history with the first interracial smooch on national TV. Now that was showing courage, and Gene Roddenberry as well as Shatner and Nichols should be applauded.

 

Unfortunately, today's powers that be are too cowardly to go out on a similar limb and even show two crew men in the background holding hands, whether it's Malcolm or not.

 

I reckon that in the future the divisions between homosexuals and heterosexuals will begin to disappear as the macho attitudes that are still prevelant give way to greater understanding and acceptance, in which case I would expect more people will be enjoying sex with both men and women -- something I think was implied in TNG on some of those funky leisure planets they visited where men and women wandered around in skimpy sexy outfits. If this were the case, there would be nothing wrong with Malcolm having both boyfriends and girlfriends. Today's division is a result of current social mores. We all know that in ancient Greece, many men had both wives and male lovers, a custom that was acceptable in a non-Christian society. I don't think Enterprise should focus on this topic as a major plotline, but I agree it could simply show that homosexuality or bisexuality is an acceptable social norm in the future.

 

Of course one can assume some unnamed crewmember might be gay without ever seeing any evidence, but that is a cop-out, especially when there are heterosexual romantic storylines, like the ones mentioned.

 

It's about time Star Trek regained some social courage.

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We all know that in ancient Greece, many men had both wives and male lovers, a custom that was acceptable in a non-Christian society..

There is a conception that the ancient Greeks were an enlightened society yet they owned slaves and the women in that society had very few rights - even compared to other cultures of the time. I don't think we need to look to them as role models.

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I agree that Reed acts a little flaky sometimes, however, I don't think that he is the right candidate for the first gay crewman. Also, in the book "What Price Honor?", Reed falls in love with a lower-class crewwoman named Alana. But then of course she dies. ;)

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well not really. i mean to me reed was the type of character that has secrets that he would want to keep a secret. but to make him an agent of section 31 was something done a bit too early, probably best if they saved the plot for season five, but they had to go all out for episodes during the series finale. however, reed is the type of man who enjoys secrets....and to get things done when he's ordered to. kinda reminds me of bashir just a bit.

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well not really. i mean to me reed was the type of character that has secrets that he would want to keep a secret. but to make him an agent of section 31 was something done a bit too early, probably best if they saved the plot for season five, but they had to go all out for episodes during the series finale. however, reed is the type of man who enjoys secrets....and to get things done when he's ordered to. kinda reminds me of bashir just a bit.

 

Yeah. I never considered a parallel between the two. Thanks for pointing that out.

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If a character is to be gay it should just be dropped intot he script totally randonly with no reaction or shock from other characters and just left at that. For example, Harry Kim on Voyager was always talking to Tim Paris about going on dates with the Delaney sisters - why not:

 

HARRY: "Well Tom, are you up for our double date on Saturday night?"

 

TOM: "Harry, the Delaney brothers aren't my idea of a fun evening..."

 

HARRY: "Oh Tom, I see the way you look at Mark across the canteen at lunchtime... I know you like him..."

 

etc etc

 

There have been a million casual romances dropped into Trek. Loads! Kirk and his multiple conquests on metallic leotards, Spock, McCoy, Chekov, Scotty ... all had romances; Troi and Riker, Picard and Vash, Geordi and holograms :angry: - even Data!!! Throughout DS9 romances just popped up here there and everywhere and did not detract from whatever "space anomoly" story or whatever that was taking place.

 

My choices for "most likely to be gay" characters from each serires where - Sulu, Wesley Crusher, Bashir, The Doctor and not Reed, but T'Pol - would certainly have boosted the ratings in any event!!

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Bashir was too horny for Jadzia and then Ezri to be gay.

 

May have been a smoke screen - always beware those men who are a bit OTT when it comes to talking about women...

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Bashir was too horny for Jadzia and then Ezri to be gay.

 

May have been a smoke screen -

always beware those men who are a bit OTT when it comes to talking about women...

 

 

Quoted for truth :angry:

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