This Whole 'takes A Couple Of Seasons Malarkey'

[Bakula Bird 0]

ok, so i might be being a tad controversial here, but it seems that everywhere i go i hear people saying that TNG, DS9 etc didn't really get good until they were into their 3rd or 4th season... is this really true? I mean, do u still love the first few seasons or do u now boycott them because the latter are meant to be better? I am so confused.

 

i must say that exhibits a lot of patience from the fans, but my main point here is that so far, as far as i am concerned, ENT is already as good as the others were... DS9 i felt picked up, in terms of action, when Worf joined the crew but then i did also love it from the start. I have loved ENT right from the start, just as it is, with no major improvements required, so in my mind this flaws the other series...

 

plus, i am also a huge huge huge Stargate SG-1 fan and i have to say that is a series that has always been amazing (bar about 2 episodes in the whole run) right from the start...

 

maybe this is a pointless thread and everyone will hate me now, but i had to get that off my chest as it has been bothering me for ages. PLEASE DON'T HATE ME!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Ktrek]

Bakula Bird,

I don't think anyone is going to hate you for sharing your opinion. I'm glad that you like Enterprise. Everyone has different tastes. I think it generally is true that it takes a couple of seasons for a show, no matter ST or not, to find themselves. I don't think ENT has done that yet BUT if "Judgement" is a preview of what is to come I have hope. Unlike you I have found myself losing interest in ENT. I really thought the show had potentail and there were several episodes in the first season that were well written. This season, however, has seen a draught. The stories, in my opinion, have been flat and mostly reworks of previous ideas from past Treks. Even "Judgement" as good of a story as it is, is still a rework of other Trek stories. I don't mind using old ideas if you can improve on them but for the most part that has not been the case for ENT. I am hoping that all of us fans are going to be able to look back at Judgement as "the" turning point for ENT. We can only hope!

 

Ktrek

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

Don't worry Bakula Bird, I actually agree with you. I think that TNG was actually at its strongest in the first three years (mind you, it was fairly strong all the way). Other examples of series that have started strong are:

 

1/ Star Trek TOS

2/ The X-Files

3/ Dark Skies (but then it did only last one season. Great show)

4/ The Twilight Zone (again, it was a good show all the way through it's reign, but it did get weaker towards the end)

5/ The Outer Limits 1990s version

 

Can you think of any more?

 

But then I suppose it is all down to personal taste as I for one always found DS9 as dull as ditchwater and thought Voyager was a cure for Insomnia towards the end.

 

By the way, I think Enterprise is way better than DS9 or Voyager. But Kirk is still the man!

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1]

I have a theory. Most shows are good from the start, but some have that "bad season".

 

Here's two examples:

 

STARGATE SG-1 - This is an example of a show that was good from the start!

STAR TREK VOYAGER - Here's an example of a show that fell victim to the "bad season" syndrome. I dunno, season 6 had some great episodes like "Fury" but felt lacking. Chakotay was like wallpaper that season!

 

Fortunately, all of my shows are good from the start (in my opinion) and few have the "bad season" syndrome.

 

Well, what are your thoughts?

[xenexian 2]

As others who have written here stated in different ways, it comes down to personal perception. I'm in the camp of the "2 to 3 years before it hits it stride." The reasons can be as varied as the opinions but I believe that most of it is due to the fact that the writers and actors haven't fully developed the characters yet. An actor can be told that they are an ensign or commanding officer and be told what their general attitude is going to be. But to an actor, there's more to it than that. It takes awhile for them to understand their character and that involves building an entire life forming attitude and background for them to work from. When any of the star trek charaters were first written, there was no background on any of them as to how they got there or what events unfolded in their lives to create the people they must bring to life. That can only happen over time with input from the actors themselves and the writers attempting to create more character for them. Watch the first two years of any of them and you can see how stiff they are in many scenes when they are relating to each other or a happening. In the later years, all of them now now who they are supposed to be and can add more of themselves to bring it all to life. Remember too, that this is a tv show and because of that, production has to follow tv production schedules to get an episode on the air. They don't have the luxury, like a movie shoot, to spend weeks on getting just a small portion of the film just right. Many times a tv director will take the best that he can get even if it doesn't quite have the feel he may want. After four years or more, the actors have that better feel and consequently, it comes across on the airwaves as being smoother and more in character. The result is a better product, better scripts and storylines and more satisfied fans. I still say give it time.

[Bakula Bird 0]

I am sooooooooooooo relieved by the positive replies i have had so far, i was so worried when i started this thread but i feel better now!

 

In the end it is of course down to the personal perception of the individual viewer and i think it's great that we have such diversity on these boards - how does it go - infinite diversity in infinite combinations... or something like that... is that a 'Spock-ism' i just nicked?

 

I'm glad that someone else on here seems to like SG-1 too (Captain Jean-Luc Picard) as i have often found that some die hard ST fans are totally opposed to it for some reason... anyway, i totally agree with your theory Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you're definitely onto something there!

 

And i also agree with TransporterMalfunction that Voyager was a cure for insomnia towards the end! I almost resented watching the last season, which i think is such a shame, though my best mate absolutely adored it all the way through, so again it is all personal i guess...

[Takara_Soong 4]

All of the episodes of Enterprise that I have seen I have really enjoyed. The only time I use the 3 seasons analogy is when discussing Enterprise with people who say they don't like Enterprise for whatever reason. Just telling them to be patient, give it a chance and maybe they will find what they are looking for in it just like you did with Voyager although hopefully it won't take 6 seasons to get good for them.

 

As with all Trek, it can't be all things to all people. Like you said, personal choice.

[Sam The Smuggler 1]

While I don't have UPN, I can't say much about Enterprise

 

But as for the first 2 Seasons Of shows....DS9's Second Season Finale is what Hooked me on that show.

 

They Set up the show with the first 2 seasons to get us interested...then they whipped the Dominion on us.

 

I've seen The 1st Episode of Enterprise and a couple of others..I liked what I saw.

[SuraksSoul 0]

Hmm...I also have a theory. I think that the more you have watched the previous Star Trek series (for instance...if you have seen virtually every episode of TNG, DS9, and Voyager) you are more likely (but not neccessarily) more proned to dislike Enterprise. Why would this be you ask? Well...to begin, you are familiar with lots of storylines....so when you see something similiar on Enterprise, you are dissapointed with it because its just a clone of someother episode you once saw on another series. Most people that I have encountered (that have not watched a great deal of past series) really like ENT because it seems fresh to them. Just not to us seasoned pros (and that could be reason for some pessimism).

[cptwright 1]

I'm glad that someone else on here seems to like SG-1 too (Captain Jean-Luc Picard)

to start out, I LOVE STARGATE SG-1 it is hands down the best adaptation of a movie to series i've ever seen, from the first episode on, they started right out from the end of the movie so you know right where you are through the whole series, i have all of season one, and two on dvd,(anyone know when season 3 is coming out)it has perfect blend of humor, action, and story . its great. well on to the subject at hand, i thought TNG was disapointing for a few seasons. and the outfits HA, deana troi looked like an intergalactic cheerleader at first. then after a few years it started picking up and i enjoyed watching it. ESPECIALLY the last couple of seasons, by then i was sorry to see it leave. DS9 i loved from the begining, after all TNG took all the hits and helped the writers and creators to see what worked, and what didnt. i love DS9, and i cant wait till i can start buying the seasons on DVD.(currently laid off, cant spend the money) its been so long since i could watch DS9 it'll be like the first time for me. voyager :( on the other hand i thought i could get into, but i just couldnt do it, i tried and tried and tried, but JANEWAY was an UNBELEIVEABLE character, along with some others but hers the most. to me the CAPTAINS first responsibility is to his crew and his ship. she clearly didnt think that way otherwise she would've done whatever she had too, within reason to get her crew and ship home. she cared way way to much about the prime directive, whereas im sure no one would've held it against her to fracture that a little to get home. ENTERPRISE :blink: is my new favorite, i like everything from the theme SONG, to the ENTERPRISE,its a sharp looking ship. T'POL is HOTHOTHOT. yeah it needs a little tweeking to come around but i think its got a really good start, i just hope it goes for the long haul. of course TOS started it all, and theres nothing more to say but it was hokey, campy, pretty bad acting at times, but it was great and i wouldnt of changed a thing, i still enjoy watching it on SCIFI channel when i get the chance. (SCIFI channel is the best thing since TOS, many great shows on it).

[Bakula Bird 0]

lol glad u like Stargate too!

 

The thing i just can't get my head around though, and this isn't a personal attack, many many people around the globe have said that TNG was boring and not that great to start off with... so how come they stuck with it all that time? Is it just incredible patience and respect or did it just not seem that bad at the time? It's just that i can't understand people watching something that they are not enjoying... I'm not judging anyone, just curious as to what it was that made people tune in week after week...

 

I mean, if i don't enjoy something i turn it off, like i did with 'Taken', i watched the first one and a half but i was so bored i changed channel, but all of my friends watched it all and thought it was absolutely amazing - maybe this flaws my character and i should actually give things more of a chance to develop... hmmm :blink:

[cptwright 1]

lol glad u like Stargate too!

that TNG was boring and not that great to start off with... so how come they stuck with it all that time?    I'm not judging anyone, just curious as to what it was that made people tune in week after week...

 

I mean, if i don't enjoy something i turn it off, like i did with 'Taken', i watched the first one and a half but i was so bored i changed channel, but all of my friends watched it all and thought it was absolutely amazing - maybe this flaws my character and i should actually give things more of a chance to develop... hmmm  :blink:

i actually didnt watch all along, i occasionally tuned in to see if it was getting better, or it there was nothing else on tv. then it eventually did get better. as far as voyager i didnt watch a whole lot of that, occasionally i checked it out, then watched what i could of the last season to see if it would at least end on a high note, how very very disapointed i was. what a way to end the show, they shouldve at least had one more episode after getting back to see how things turned out. as far as TAKEN goes you shouldve given it a little bit more of a chance, it was pretty good, but im sure you'll have another chance sometime. but hey, everyones got their right to a choice, and that variety of people, and opinions is what makes this country so very interesting, and great.

 

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Klingonmike 0]

First I would like to say that I like Stargate too,Col.Jack O'Neill cracks me up every time!

 

Now as a long time Star Trek watcher (since 1966),I've always enjoyed every series to come out of the Star Trek universe. I find Enterprise to be a very good and exciting show which reminds me alot of TOS.

I look forward to another 5 more seasons of Enterprise!

[SuraksSoul 0]

I find Enterprise to be a very good and exciting show which reminds me alot of TOS.

I look forward to another 5 more seasons of Enterprise!

I could not agree more with your attitude. :blink:

[A l t e r E g o 9]

I find Enterprise to be a very good and exciting show which reminds me alot of TOS.

I look forward to another 5 more seasons of Enterprise!

I could not agree more with your attitude. :blink:

ME TOO! Also I hope for it to make at least 3 feature films.

[TransporterMalfunction 1]

Yes, I would like to see Enterprise on the big screen, possibly even more so than Voyager and DS9. It will be interesting to see if any main characters are killed or new ones added by the end of the show, as every series except TOS has lost a main character in one way or another. Personally I like them all, but if I had to choose one it would be Mayweather simply because his character is so dull and he sounds condescending when making those patronising speaches about morality.

[Stelfan 0]

Bakula Bird: good that you express your opinions..

And i tend to agree with you..

 

I don't think the series have a pattern that the first seasons are always the worst, and not the other way around either..

They just have some bad and some good, and some really good, just like everything else

 

For example, Voyagers first season was not so astonishing, but the second one had some great episodes..

I think the Enterprise has started of really good, but can of course get even better I hope..

TNG was great all the way through, long live Picard.. I got to admit, I would still have to choose TNG in a best series poll, the crew is so great..

 

now im babbling.. sorry

[Theunicornhunter 2]

It's funny that one of the criticisms of ENT is that it steals plots from other series but seems some of TNG's first episodes were remakes of TOS. And, okay I'm ready for the backlash; but I thought Jonathon Frake's acting was pretty green that first season. All the characters grew into their roles.

 

Is it patience that keeps us hanging on, naw, a bad episode of Star Trek is still better than a good episode of most anything else.

 

I like ENT, my major complaint was way too much whining by Archer; the total incompetence of the ship against all aliens they encountered; and the sad representation of female officers.

 

Archer has stopped whining, they've beefed up weapons a bit; unfortunately they're still trying to make T'Pol a sex kitten rather than a Vulcan science officer. I really think they need to add a strong female character; a competent officer - is it so much to ask.

 

I think ENT will have the same problem as VOY in that they are subject to UPN rule where TNG and DS9 were produced as syndicated series. This gave more freedom to the writers. On one hand DS9 was not my favorite, I didn't like Ferengi's, Klingon's or the war with the Dominion - but they had some terrific writing. The Bashir/Garak friendship was intriguing and usually left you with that hmmm feeling. I'm afraid, as I have mentioned in another post, those few times ENT has tried to be enlightening it has been preachy instead. It has yet to leave me with that hmmm feeling. However I thought Judgment and Cease Fire were particularly good.

 

AS for StarGate SG1; now these writers understand character development and relationships. Did I mention how glad I am that Dr. Jackson is returning. And Dr. Carter is an excellent representation of a female officer. The humor on this show is subtle and terrific. I thought John Billinsley's guest appearance was great and let's not forget that O'Neill wanted to name the Prometheus "Enterprise". In fact they have given numerous references to Star Trek, in addition to having several ST actors guest star.

 

Other shows that started out strong; I loved the SciFi channels "The Invisible Man" it too had a dull episode or two but was pretty good overall.

[Takara_Soong 4]

It's funny that one of the criticisms of ENT is that it steals plots from other series but seems some of TNG's first episodes were remakes of TOS.  And, okay I'm ready for the backlash; but I thought Jonathon Frake's acting was pretty green that first season.  All the characters grew into their roles.

True. They did a few episodes that were directly related to TOS in the first season. They have also said that in season 2, because of the writers' strike, they took a lot of stories that had originally been for TOS but shelved and re-wrote them for TNG.

 

I also agree with what you said about "bad" Trek episodes being better than many "good" episodes of other series.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

All good points UH which are addressed by remembering ENT comes before the others so it's perceived "problems" do have a meaning and rightful place in the big picture, imo.

[Bakula Bird 0]

he he yeah i loved John Billingsley's guest appearance on SG-1, it was so funny when they were saying 'oh come on we might as well be wearing red shirts!' lol

 

Some of my friends who are absolute die-hard ST fans are sooooo anti stargate and i just don't understand it. Its writers are clearly very fond of ST and like TheUnicornHunter said, there have been many guest appearances by ST actors on SG-1.

 

I am also absolutely thrilled that Daniel Jackson is returning, he will be very welcome indeed! It would be cool if someone from SG-1 made a guest appearance on Enterprise, would be like a mutual acceptance that both shows can live in the same world... hmmmm that would be excellent!

[cptwright 1]

i think ENT is an excellent show with some, mind you some, quirks. but then again almost any show you watch or have watched has something wrong with it. "YOU CAN PLEASE SOME OF THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, AND ALL THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT YOU CANT PLEASE ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME".

tis so true. but yeah i agree STARGATE IS GREAT. has a perfect blend of humor, and action, and pretty much everything. ENTERPRISE is working its way there too. i think they need a couple of characther changes. and a new one kinda like MCCOY, or SPOCK. TPOL is kinda like spock but not punny enough.( i know its not a word, but you know what i mean).

[~Crims~ 0]

Having re-watched the first 4 seasons on DVD of TNG, I think it is very clear TNG did not get really good till the 3rd season. In my opinion, Season 1 had maybe 2 really good episodes, and Season 2 had about 6 or 7, where the latter seasons had a steady string of quality episodes.

 

When DS9 first came on, I lost interest very fast because the first season just didn't do it for me. Then I picked up again in Sept and started in the middle of season 2... it already much improved and constantly grew better.

 

Same with Voyager, I lost interest in the first season, picked it up again mid-way through the 3rd and really enjoyed it.

 

I think it rings true so far. It remains to be seen about Enterprise. Do I boycot old episodes, definitely not, an average star trek episode is still enjoyable to me.

[Theunicornhunter 2]

i think they need a couple of characther changes. and a new one kinda like MCCOY, or SPOCK. TPOL is kinda like spock but not punny enough

All the write up when the show started stated Trip/T'Pol were supposed to be the McCoy/Spock relationship. And they had some great sparks in season one. Then in season two they've barely shared a scene. What's up with this?