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Celtic_Swimmer

WAR.. what is it good for!?!?!

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I have many things to say...

 

THE WAR IS NOT ABOUT OIL!

If anything, we should not go to war for oil! A war would create great instability in the oil market, driving prices up. When a new government gets set up, they will not give us free oil! They will need the profit from the oil to rebuild their country! Also, what's to say Saddam might not burn the oil wells like in Kuwait?!?! That would be millions, if not billions, of dollars of oil right down the drain. Also, based on a new poll, by CNN, the great majority of Americans believe the war is not about oil.

 

There are many GOOD REASONS to go to war

  • Saddam is a murderer and torturer
     
  • Iraquis lack many freedoms we take for granted in the freer countries
     
  • Saddam DOES have biological and chemical weapons
     
  • He might have nuclear weapons, or just might be in development
     
  • If done correctly, The world would be much better off without him

And ... if we don't go to war now, the situation will likely get MUCH WORSE!

 

The war could be really easy, or could get REALLY NASTY

The war could go really easy and simple. Saddam's soldiers could desert and the special ops units could thwart Saddam's bio and chem weapons.

-OR-

Most of Saddam's soldiers could stay loyal, Saddam could use his bio and chem weapons, not only on american and british troops but on his own civilians! Also, here's something nasty: Saddam has duplicate british and american soldiers' uniforms! He could have them out on the front lines - the soldiers wouldn't know who was their own soldiers or not! He could also use them to kill off opposing groups of civilians and videotape it - thereby making it look like americans and british assasinated civilians!!!

 

After reviewing this evidence, I believe WAR is something no one wants, but must be done to remove an evil man from power.

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I might have said this before, it bears repeating:

 

"Blessed are the peacemakers, they shall be called the children of God."

 

Don't let the conservatives and their self-stroking desire to play war and spread their version of democracy fool you, folks. Democracy doesn't necessarily work for everyone. And somebody better tell W that not everyone is an evangelical Bible thumping MORON like he is.

 

Sorry, I hate the Bushes. Bush I, Barbara, Jebbie and W -- they're all elitist slime. Say what you will about Clinton, at least he KNEW there is a middle class.

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Judisparks! Your "repeat" said nothing at all related to my reply! Also, is a evil dictator better than a democracy??? I would personally choose rights and freedoms over evil dictatorship and oppression.

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Let's not be misled. There are huge propoganda campaigns on BOTH sides of this argument,and valid points for and against going to war. An ideal scenario would have been for the allied forces in the last Gulf War to have carried on into Baghdad, allowing the uprising wanting to topple Saddam's evil regime to succeed. We pulled out,and Saddam consequently quelled the uprising and stayed in power. This then allowed America to convince Saudi that they needed a permanant American military prescence to dispel any potential threat from him.

 

Therefore the situation we are in now is that whether you like it or not,Saddam is a threat to world peace. Not particularly because there is a fear he will use the wmd himself,although that is not wholly unlikely. It is foremost, the fear of who he could sell them too, who will without a doubt use them.

 

Valid points are made,regarding the oppression and torture of the iraqi people and this needs to be addressed.

 

I am sure they want Saddam out as much as we do and going to war will achieve this,although it cannot be used as an argument for war,despite it's validity. The UN mandate is about disarming Saddam and must be approached as such. However right the humanitarian angle is it is not in the mandate. Freeing the Iraqi people will be a consequence,albeit a welcome one, of the war and not a reason for war.

 

I for one think the war is justified.

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Judisparks!  Your "repeat" said nothing at all related to my reply!  Also, is a evil dictator better than a democracy???  I would personally choose rights and freedoms over evil dictatorship and oppression.

Wasn't replying to you, was re-stating my opinion. Sorry if you thought I was replying to you.

 

I'll choose the same but I would RATHER it be done peacefully. Sorry if you have a problem with that but in my opinion, the only thing that war does is make enemies and kill innocent civilians. Crooked, manipulated democracy isn't any different then "evil dictatorships". I AM NOT SAYING THAT OUR DEMOCRACY IS CROOKED. Some cultures don't lend themselves to democracy, no matter how wonderful it is.

 

Of course, I am a child of the sixties and my opinions could be considered skewed by the self-righteous gun-toting current ruling class of the USA (please note, Canadians, I am saying "USA", not including your country).

 

I agree he should be ousted and his regime overthrown. But why should the US do it when many of the Arab states have far more money then we do and could take care of the situation, possibly without firing a shot? Why do US and allied soldiers have to die? And why does that cowboy idiot in the White House think that the US has to be the world's policeman?

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I'm not a big fan of Bush,But I support going into Iraq and removing Saddam Insane 150%.The man is pure evil.Amnesty International has a list of crimes him and his thugs have committed,everything from eye gouging to acid baths,rapes to beheadings.He has no right running a country,he has proven he has no care for his people.Recently one woman spoke out against Saddam in Iraq,she was arrested and they chopped her head off (Fox news report).

 

This war is most certainly NOT about oil,its about the liberation and freedom of an oppressed society.Yes people may die,but in the long run more people will live.

 

As for those that are upset soldiers may get killed,well they volunteered with the full knowledge there is a chance they may die in combat.I was in the Army and I was very willing to lay my life on the line so others can live a free and democratic life.

 

You know its a damn if you do damned if you don't situation,If we do nothing and pull out of Iraq and then Saddam nukes Israel or chemically attacks Kuwait then the world will look to the U.S and whine about us not doing anything to stop him.

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I'm not a big fan of Bush,But I support going into Iraq and removing Saddam Insane 150%.The man is pure evil.Amnesty International has a list of crimes him and his thugs have committed,everything from eye gouging to acid baths,rapes to beheadings.He has no right running a country,he has proven he has no care for his people.Recently one woman spoke out against Saddam in Iraq,she was arrested and they chopped her head off (Fox news report).

 

This war is most certainly NOT about oil,its about the liberation and freedom of an oppressed society.Yes people may die,but in the long run more people will live.

 

As for those that are upset soldiers may get killed,well they volunteered with the full knowledge there is a chance they may die in combat.I was in the Army and I was very willing to lay my life on the line so others can live a free and democratic life.

 

You know its a damn if you do damned if you don't situation,If we do nothing and pull out of Iraq and then Saddam nukes Israel or chemically attacks Kuwait then the world will look to the U.S and whine about us not doing anything to stop him.

Totally agree,except your assertion that it is about freeing the iraqi people. That is the last thing it is about. As previously stated the freedom of the iraqi people is just a happy circumstance. Saddam is evil personified, and i don't really care about the hidden agenda's( and don't kid yourself there won't be any), as long as they get rid of him. This man needs to be taken out immediately. However the flouting of international law is a very dangerous game to play, no matter how powerful you THINK you are.

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Still, (I'm not disagreeing with you, trekbabe), even the humanitarian aspect aside, there are still many reasons to go to war now:

  • Saddam has Biological and Chemical weapons and is not afraid to use them
     
  • He might have nuclear, but he will try to get them
     
  • If he doesn't use these weapons, he will likely sell them to (guess who!) Terrorists!
     
  • If we don't go to war now, it will likely get worse, he will get more weapons, and sell or use them, etc.
     
  • Not to mention the possibility of using his robot drones to spray chemical and biological weapons on his enemies - Israel, maybe even the U.S.!

So, there are many good reasons we should go to war...

 

In the famous words of...whoever said this...

 

"War is something no one wants, but must be done from time to time to maintain the quality and abundance of life"

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Still, (I'm not disagreeing with you, trekbabe), even the humanitarian aspect aside, there are still many reasons to go to war now:

  • Saddam has Biological and Chemical weapons and is not afraid to use them
     
     
     
     
  • He might have nuclear, but he will try to get them
     
     
     
     
  • If he doesn't use these weapons, he will likely sell them to (guess who!) Terrorists!
     
     
     
     
  • If we don't go to war now, it will likely get worse, he will get more weapons, and sell or use them, etc.
     
     
     
     
  • Not to mention the possibility of using his robot drones to spray chemical and biological weapons on his enemies - Israel, maybe even the U.S.!

So, there are many good reasons we should go to war...

 

In the famous words of...whoever said this...

 

"War is something no one wants, but must be done from time to time to maintain the quality and abundance of life"

Absolutely agree with everything you say. We are right to go in now,despite UN objections for all the reasons you have mentioned but going in without UN backing really worries me.

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Yes, trekbabe, we should try to go in with U.N. support. The only problem is that the U.N. wants to delay the war too much. The War can't be delayed more than another week or so. If not, then it will start to get very hot over in Iraq, which is pretty much a big desert. And, with bio and chem protection suits, the troops can't fight in the summer in the desert. They would have to wait until next year, when the situation is much worse.

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Do we really have a choice im so confused. I thought at 1st we should then the united nations said no reason now everyone says we should AHAHAHAAH :D

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Yes, trekbabe, we should try to go in with U.N. support.  The only problem is that the U.N. wants to delay the war too much.  The War can't be delayed more than another week or so.  If not, then it will start to get very hot over in Iraq, which is pretty much a big desert.  And, with bio and chem protection suits, the troops can't fight in the summer in the desert.  They would have to wait until next year, when the situation is much worse.

Good point. I never thought of that. :D

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Only if we3 lived in a peaceful Society we could avoid all problems.. to bad that its all from star trek and we all want to love in dream worlds..

Our government is so determined to be right.. so determined to prove somthing that they don't need to and they start little things from nothing... * i e OIL*

i got this joke from a friend and i thought i would share it..

 

President Bush visits a school to explain his politics to kids. He invites the kids to ask him questions. Bobby stands up and tells him "Mr. President, I got 3 questions:"

 

1. How come, although the count of votes was not in your favor, you still won the election?

2. Why do you want to attack Iraq without any clear reason?

3. Couldn't someone argue that the bombing of Hiroshima was the biggest terrorist attack of all times?

 

Before the president can answer, the recess bell rings, and the kids leave the room. After they come back, Bush invites them again to ask questions.

 

Joey stands up and tells him "Mr. President, I got 5 questions:"

1. How come, although the count of votes was not in your favor, you still won the election?

2. Why do you want to attack Iraq without any clear reason?

3. Couldn't someone argue that the bombing of Hiroshima was the biggest terrorist attack of all times?

4. Why did the recess bell ring 20 minutes early?

5. Where's Bobby?

 

 

-Laur :D

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Celtic Swimmer!

 

Must I repeat myself!

 

THE WAR IS NOT ABOUT OIL!

If anything, we should not go to war for oil!  A war would create great instability in the oil market, driving prices up.  When a new government gets set up, they will not give us free oil!  They will need the profit from the oil to rebuild their country!  Also, what's to say Saddam might not burn the oil wells like in Kuwait?!?!  That would be millions, if not billions, of dollars of oil right down the drain.  Also, based on a new poll, by CNN, the great majority of Americans believe the war is not about oil.

 

There are many GOOD REASONS to go to war

  • Saddam is a murderer and torturer
     
     
     
     
  • Iraquis lack many freedoms we take for granted in the freer countries
     
     
     
     
  • Saddam DOES have biological and chemical weapons
     
     
     
     
  • He might have nuclear weapons, or just might be in development
     
     
     
     
  • If done correctly, The world would be much better off without him

And ... if we don't go to war now, the situation will likely get MUCH WORSE!

 

Also, that joke is far from the truth! The whole reason America is a better place than places like IRAQ is that we don't do stuff like that. Like they say, "this is a free country!"

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The debate is now over. Right or wrong we are going in!! Whatever your stance on the subject you must see that war was inevitable. Force is the only thing the butcher of Baghdad understands, unfortunately. He has been given a chance,even now, to avert conflict by leaving Iraq, and has refused in arrogance and contempt for his own people. Any Iraqi civilian casualties are therefore his fault,and his alone.

 

I have always been against going in without UN backing, but what are you supposed to do when there is no way the French,Ruskies etc... will allow you to gain UN support? Try another 12 years of appeasement in the name of peace? I DON'T THINK SO !!

 

Credit where credit is due .We have followed the UN path for the last 7 or 8 months, so you can't say we didn't try.

 

And once the conflict is over and Iraq is in control of it's own oil fields (providing SADMAN doesn't set fire to them) it will at last prove that this conflict WAS NEVER ABOUT OIL !!!

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Celtic Swimmer!

 

Must I repeat myself!

 

Also, that joke is far from the truth!  The whole reason America is a better place than places like IRAQ is that we don't do stuff like that.  Like they say, "this is a free country!"

Hey Bud its ok.. its only joke.. and it wasn't the qestions i was focusing on it was what he did... * getting rid of the kid*

 

~Lauren :blink:

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Well with this war with Iraq . . if you would like to call it The Gulf War II or Operation: Iraqi Freedom it’s here.

 

“War what is it good for?”

Well I guess that plays in my mind. War of course is horrible and if you watch the news too much (with this tons of coverage and much of it LIVE) then it can be scary at times. War is a last resort in many cases and should be, but what about war and Iraq?

 

I have done some research on the man Saddam Hussein. I have also watched lots of special coverage on the man (not only now, but years ago). On a special coverage it is estimated that he ordered killings on his own people of 500,000 to 1,000,000. This man has killed half a million or even (and probably) more then a half a million.

 

After watching a show on TV some women that were from Iraq said that a girl wrote in her notebook and said something bad about the government. The teacher saw this and then reported it. After that the girl was put in jail they then the officers put electrical shocks attached to her lips and other parts of her body. The parents were brought to this prison and then had to watch them give her electrical shocks and rape her. When they were there they also saw meat grinding machines that the government placed living people in to grind them up. I can’t imagine what it was like for that mother & farther to have been there and saw things like this. This government has done tons and tons of acts of killings. They use chemical weapons on there own people like the Kurdish people. Killings thousands of them . . . people that saw this said that they could see people coughing up blood everywhere . . . a very horrible sight and way to die.

 

If this by it self does not justify action against him and the government, then I don’t know . . .what does. Should we let another half a million die? How about waiting longer and another half million and another?

 

Should we wait until he has killed even more people and has tons & tons of more weapons? Weapons of mass destruction (or how it is also called “weapons of mass murder”) building up? Letting him build a nuclear bomb? And then we decide to take action and have to confront a much more powerful enemy?

Let me do the math here. First off he would have killed thousands of more people in his own country. With a nuclear bomb (or even more biological weapons - which I consider more dangerous) would again could be used to kill more people in a future conflict. More people would die in a future war that would happen sooner or later.

 

This math is real. This is reality. The world is not a perfect place and I wish it was peaceful and I wish there were more people in the world like me & you, but the world has people unlike me & you who are evil.

 

I guess the questions that are out there are “is he an threat to us now - right now”?.

Well first I can definitely say off bat he is a threat right now to his own people.

 

What about us in the United States and other places?

Well first off a question like “is he a threat to us” places a higher value on our lives then the people of Iraq. It does! And that is not right in the first place. All life if it is here or in Iraq is important. That kind of argument is not right! Saying that we are more valuable then the hundreds and hundreds that Saddam kills is not right.

 

But is he a threat to United States and others? When I turn on my TV they said in the north of Iraq there is a group who are very deeply connected with Al-Qaeda. This group in fact is supported by the government of Iraq. In the first Gulf War they helped bring down the Kurdish. So is there a connection with Al-Qaeda? There is! And I don’t know why there is doubt of that. And if Hussein had an opportunity would he not do something like Sep 11th? Of course he would. This is a man who has his government teaching kids in schools to hate America. Some are and some are not brainwashed, but the ones that are hate America very much. Just imagine that and imagine them through official or unofficial channels take or get some weapons like biological or chemical. Imagine now them using something like biological weapons or even shipping them to the leaders of Al-Qaeda.

 

Is something like this a real possibility?

Of course it is and to think other wise is pretty dumb.

People are taught to hate America and some believe it. They would not give it a second thought to use there country’s weapons of mass destruction against us or someone else.

 

And we even know that there are connections. I have stated that the news has said that there are deep connections in the north and that the government supports them. Hey, the government was having larger parties after Sep 11th. And is a very possible connection for funding from Iraq to the Al-Qaeda networks. And a good possible connection to Sep 11.

 

I remember a week or two after Sep 11th that CNN was doing its own private investigations of the matter and they actually traced back funding from Iraq. Well now someone might ask “why has this not been an issue?”. Well if you look at the facts I believe that Iraq destroyed them. Iraq has even killed some of the deep rooted connections, then there will be no evidence tracing back. On the news during that time they have said that Iraq has killed some Al-Qaeda connections. These people had parties . . . they were just cleaning off some of the finger prints on the manner.

 

Some of the interesting things that I see when watching TV is that Russia has sold (and has done even a few days before the war) weapons to the Iraqis. They have economic investments in Iraq. France made a major deal with management of the oil. They have major economic investments. Germany also another economic investment . . . .

 

These countries are loosing thousands because of this war.

While I’m not saying this is the primary reason why they don’t favor it, but this is definitely a big one.

 

But I must ask myself “Why do people from Europe oppose this war as they do?”

I think this is because they don’t feel as vulnerable as we do here in the U.S.

First off we are really target #1 and Europe is really an after thought. This is the real reason to why that a majority of them don’t support it. If they lived in the U.S. they would have a different picture . . . a different window. They did not have a Sep 11 so they don’t feel the grand and problem that Iraq brings. This is the reason I think. And if a Sep 11th happened in Europe, then I could most definitely say a majority would support the war.

 

 

One thing that Arizona Senator John McCain said very well (in his voice when saying it on TV):

 

 

That we are removing a direct threat to the security of the United States of America. Additionally, it will bring peace and justice to the people of Iraq. After it's over, we will find substantial evidence of weapons of mass destruction and we will find additional evidence of the incredible brutality of this regime. Finally, I am optimistic long term in our ability to help that country become a functioning democracy.

 

 

 

I guess I can go on & on and I probably won’t change anyone’s mind (well if I did then I’ll be happy})

 

{And sorry for any typos}

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

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^ Geez, I can hardly read that. Well, I'd say the dancing in the streets kinda proves our point. Powell is going to Syria, there won't be a war there (it seems some anti-war people are more eager for a Syrian war than pro-war people are) I think this is just tough love to get the middle east to shape up.

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^ Geez, I can hardly read that. Well, I'd say the dancing in the streets kinda proves our point. Powell is going to Syria, there won't be a war there (it seems some anti-war people are more eager for a Syrian war than pro-war people are) I think this is just tough love to get the middle east to shape up.

Yes, I too have always found it amusing how these extreme left wing protesters are motivated to protest against the current liberation of the Iraqi people, yet they are in favour of military action against Israel. Mind you these are probabily the same people who condemn Nazi Germany but at the same time have fond views of Communist Russia as the 'Great Experiment', even thought the reign of Stalin saw a greater number of death and genocide than any policy of Hitlers. :o

 

Amusing indeed. :o

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Left wingers have good arguments, they just can't organize them or present them without appearing hypocritical.

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Left wingers have good arguments, they just can't organize them or present them without appearing hypocritical.

In this case I don’t think the “left wingers” have valid arguments. I think it was very necessary to go to war with Iraq and I think in the long run it will pay off.

 

 

Master Q

StarTrek_Master_Q@yahoo.com

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Has anyone noticed that acts of violence seem to break out during peace rallies? Whats up with that?

 

Syria needs to cough up any Iraqi leaders they may be hiding,and close down all its terrorist camps.

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Has anyone noticed that acts of violence seem to break out during peace rallies? Whats up with that?

 

Syria needs to cough up any Iraqi leaders they may be hiding,and close down all its terrorist camps.

Absolutely agree. However, they won't "cough up " anyone as we are the enemy in their eyes.Just hope Dubya hangs fire, to do anything else would play right into their hands.

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ABSOULTLY NOTHING

i do NOT want to go to war AT ALL.. honestly in my opinion Bush is an IDIOT.. but then agian we can not have another Pearl harbour Tragedy... so i guess in a way hes smart..

I agree with Bush being an idiot but not the whole 'Pearl Harbour' thing. It is more oil then it is anything. Sure there is are a SMALL AMOUNT of respectable reasons to go to war but not enough. The bigger threat is coming from North Korea and is growing in Iran. Those people have worse weapons then Iraq. We all need to sign a peace treaty. War will get us nowhere but dead.

war doesnt solve everything. with that said, my father is a marine retired, as i and him have discussed, he didnt agree with the war till he seen the evidence that sadaam had his hand in the first attack on the world trade center in i think '95, also if you look at the WMD and the fact that he and his regime fund, and help terririst organizations. War is justified, he is not only a threat to the Iraqi people, as HITLER was to the jews, and all who opposed him, saddam is a threat to the world. Mad men like him would use WMD's against the US as soon as he could. i also think that as the sole remaining super power, we in the U.S. have a moral obligation to help others that cant help themselves. also if you think about it, as the last big dog on the block, any, and all terrorists, and criminal governments would take any opportunity to take a shot on us. not only does it make them look BIG AND BAD, but they think it would knock us back a step. but as their finding out, piss us off and we'll just come back at you even stronger. look at all the PHONY SURRENDERS that the iraqi regime used to kill US, AND UK soliders. sadaam like any other bully is just a coward, he couldnt stand and fight he ran and hid, letting his men die in vein for him. maybe some of the reasons for this war arent the greatest in some peoples mind, but over all it is a just war. also as i have said in other topics we who are debating this wouldnt have the FREEDOM to do this if it werent for past wars, and the SOLDIERS who DIED for our FREEDOM. UTOPIA is a great idea, but it'll never happen like it should, or like we would all want. there can never be a true peace without MILITARY MIGHT, and the resolve to use it. heres a quote for you PEACE THROUGH MIGHT. i dont know who said it but its true. if we just sat back and never did anything, everyone would come right at us. after 9-11 im all for showing the world that we, and all FREEDOM LOVING, PEACEFUL PEOPLE, wont just sit back and take what you throw at us. and just because we havent found Sadaams WMD's doesnt mean they werent or arent there, he just had a lot of time to hide them, after all we did try to find a peaceful resolution for the past 12 years since the first time he showed major aggretion. (they should of finished it then). when we just sat back and watched hitler look what happened, we sure couldnt let that happen again, right? so while those of you who think were just big bullys are debating this or criticising the war, think about where your freedom to do so came from. its a wonderful freedom to be able to debate this and many other subjects, and i am glad to do so, for it is EVERYONES RIGHT to have their own opinion. AFTER ALL THAT IS WHAT SO MANY MEN, AND WOMEN DIED FOR, OUR FREEDOMS IN WHATEVER WE DO.

 

SEMPER FI

 

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER

 

ps

BUSH is no idiot, he is a good president. and im sure HE as well as all of us hope that this war will end soon, and we can all live again in peace.

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[*]Five relatives - one Army, two Navy, one Marine, one Air Force -- all on deployment or with orders for same

 

[*]The possibility of making a mockery of the UN. It needs more teeth. And a big bat.

 

 

why dont you just go ask your five relatives what they think of your bashing, and raving. they all VOLUNTEERED for DUTY, GOD, AND COUNTRY. what you say, is a mockery to EVERYTHING THEY DO, AND STAND FOR AS U.S. SERVICEMEN, AND WOMEN. further more, your right the UN needs bigger teeth, and a HUGE bat, but as your statement incures, they DONT. i have many relatives that were in the service, and friends, i know they volunteered with FULL KNOWLEDGE THAT IF CALLED ON THEY WOULD DIE FOR THEIR COUNTRY AND THEIR BELEIFS IN IT. all this armchair quarterbacking that we all seem to be doing is so easy for us, because what we think or do doesnt affect the entire country or the war. youve gotta know somewhere in your mind that these decisions our elected officials make about war, DONT AGAIN DONT COME EASY OR LIGHTLY. so why dont you all just lay off a little and give them a brake. i dont agree with a lot that our government does, but we as a nation put them there, so why dont we all stand together as a nation behind our elected officials. DONT ANY OF YOU REMEMBER 9-11? UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL. all the wonderful things the U.S. people, and other nations around the world, just seemed to fade away really quick, then all the petty arguments and bickering just started right back up again. and you talk about selfrightous, gun toting people, just what are you acting like, a little SELF RIGHTOUS yourself arent you. and whats wrong with gun toting americans, its our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO BARE ARMS. it is your right to voice your opinions, but why dont you think long and hard before you say some of what you say. LOVE THE FREEDOMS YOU HAVE THANKS TO THE MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN THAT DIED FOR THEM.

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