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Dabo Queen

Measure Of A Man...WTF?

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Why should this trial have even happened?

 

 

Don't even get me wrong...I love this epi (with the exception of Tasha's holographic image slutting it up all over my screen). But seriously...how is Maddox even going to ARGUE that Data is Star Fleet property?

 

He wasn't manufactured by Star Fleet, or given to Star Fleet by Dr. Soong. Dr. Soong was no longer working w/Star Fleet people, and created, Data, Lore and B4 of his own accord. Data WILLINGLY joined Star Fleet under his own volition...isn't that enough to prove that he's sentient and self-aware?

 

How can the judge even consider having a trial? Maddox is a douche, which is clear, but Star Fleet giving ORDERS that Data be disassembled?

 

Whatever.... :lol:

Edited by Dabo Queen

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Good point. As you said, Soong created Data without Starfleet or even Federation involvement. If Starfleet owns Data then where is the receipt? Where are the accounting records listing Data as a fixed asset?

 

Sure if he really was Starfleet property then maybe, *maybe*, Starfleet had the right to do with Data as they wished, but doesn't even having to go through the trial process mean the issue is at best uncertain? So he complained. Big deal. There has to be another reason for that to go to trial. My computer gives me a warning when I run a program update, that doesn't make it sentient.

 

Picard's protest that Starfleet was trying to create a slave race. Interesting since that is what eventually happened to the Mark I EMH.

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Good point. As you said, Soong created Data without Starfleet or even Federation involvement. If Starfleet owns Data then where is the receipt? Where are the accounting records listing Data as a fixed asset?

 

Sure if he really was Starfleet property then maybe, *maybe*, Starfleet had the right to do with Data as they wished, but doesn't even having to go through the trial process mean the issue is at best uncertain? So he complained. Big deal. There has to be another reason for that to go to trial. My computer gives me a warning when I run a program update, that doesn't make it sentient.

 

Picard's protest that Starfleet was trying to create a slave race. Interesting since that is what eventually happened to the Mark I EMH.

 

 

My poor doctor. :lol:

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Why should this trial have even happened?

 

 

Don't even get me wrong...I love this epi (with the exception of Tasha's holographic image slutting it up all over my screen). But seriously...how is Maddox even going to ARGUE that Data is Star Fleet property?

 

He wasn't manufactured by Star Fleet, or given to Star Fleet by Dr. Soong. Dr. Soong was no longer working w/Star Fleet people, and created, Data, Lore and B4 of his own accord. Data WILLINGLY joined Star Fleet under his own volition...isn't that enough to prove that he's sentient and self-aware?

 

How can the judge even consider having a trial? Maddox is a douche, which is clear, but Star Fleet giving ORDERS that Data be disassembled?

 

Whatever.... :lol:

 

 

 

You know, i never considered that he joined voluntarily. You are 1000% right here. :lol:

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Good point. As you said, Soong created Data without Starfleet or even Federation involvement. If Starfleet owns Data then where is the receipt? Where are the accounting records listing Data as a fixed asset?

 

Sure if he really was Starfleet property then maybe, *maybe*, Starfleet had the right to do with Data as they wished, but doesn't even having to go through the trial process mean the issue is at best uncertain? So he complained. Big deal. There has to be another reason for that to go to trial. My computer gives me a warning when I run a program update, that doesn't make it sentient.

 

Picard's protest that Starfleet was trying to create a slave race. Interesting since that is what eventually happened to the Mark I EMH.

i'd never thought of it like that

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I can't believe that is the first time someone brought this point up! Way to go Dabo_Queen!.. :lol:

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Perhaps Maddox thought that since he joined Starfleet, graduated and made the rank of Lt. Cmdr. that he had given up some of his freedoms. The same could be said about today's military, they really don't have a say where they're going to be deployed, for how long, what they do, or anything like that.

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Perhaps Maddox thought that since he joined Starfleet, graduated and made the rank of Lt. Cmdr. that he had given up some of his freedoms. The same could be said about today's military, they really don't have a say where they're going to be deployed, for how long, what they do, or anything like that.

 

But as the judge initially said, "You can't snatch people up just to prove your pet theories." So a neurologist couldn't just suddenly show up and demand that Worf submit to some bizarre form of testing to see how life amongst humans affected Klingon cognition.

 

And I thought that advancing in rank gained freedoms and privileges, not curtailed them. LOL, can you all imagine some crazy scientist showing up and demanding that Picard undergo some weird experiment because, after all, he was Captain of a starship? Or even Captain Kathryn The-Hell-I-Will Janeway? :lol: That would be a great ep!

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Good point. As you said, Soong created Data without Starfleet or even Federation involvement. If Starfleet owns Data then where is the receipt? Where are the accounting records listing Data as a fixed asset?

 

FYI - I LOVE this line. It could not be more beautifully stated. To acquire property, you have to use either legal (in which everyone walks away with something and is satisfied) or illegal means (in which stuff is just snatched...hmmm...). I don't recall Soong gettin' anything outta this--except being ridiculed forever.

 

 

Picard's protest that Starfleet was trying to create a slave race. Interesting since that is what eventually happened to the Mark I EMH.

 

Another brilliant observation. And where was the sanctimonous speechifying on their behalf?

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This is a facinating topic! I thought that Data was being thought of as prpoerty because he was "mechanical" - a kind of device, as opposed to a biological being.

 

Speaking of the "race" of holograms, I was appalled when I saw all of those Mark I EMHs working in that cave, even though they were "just" holograms.

 

Hmm, there's a lot to think about in those episodes. Measure of a Man is one of my favorite TNG episodes.

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FYI - I LOVE this line. It could not be more beautifully stated. To acquire property, you have to use either legal (in which everyone walks away with something and is satisfied) or illegal means (in which stuff is just snatched...hmmm...). I don't recall Soong gettin' anything outta this--except being ridiculed forever.

He, he, hey Butt-Head, she said "snatch". :look:

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I think the biggest problem with this episode is with the amount of time that passed between when Data was found and this hearing.

 

Facts:

Data reactivated in 2338 when he was found by the crew of the Tripoli.

He attended Starfleet Academy from 2341 - 2345.

This hearing took place in 2365 - 27 years after Data was found.

 

If Data was the property of Starfleet where was he and what was he doing for Starfleet between 2338 and 2341? If Maddox's claim is that Starfleet found technology when they found Data then he might have a case IF Data had been put to use by Starfleet immediately but there is a 3 year gap between when he found and when he joined the Academy. Besides, if Data was considered just a piece of technology why would he need to go to the Academy and why would he have a rank?!?!

 

The issue of Data's status should have been made clear when he was accepted to Starfleet Academy. At that time Maddox claimed Data wasn't sentient and shouldn't be accepted but Data was accepted so the obvious conclusion is that the others on the board believed Data was sentient.

 

It was a good episode for what it was trying to say but only if you ignore the time problems IMO.

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I don't remember the timeline of when we learned Data's backstory but when the episode was written and aired was it known that Data was found and later joined Starfleet or at that point did we only know that Data was a Starfleet officer?

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I don't remember the timeline of when we learned Data's backstory but when the episode was written and aired was it known that Data was found and later joined Starfleet or at that point did we only know that Data was a Starfleet officer?

We didn't know exactly how long Data had been in Starfleet but we did know that it had been many years. From the season 1 episode Datalore:

LORE: Will I soon have a uniform like that, my brother?

DATA: If you get one the way I did, Lore, it means four years at the Academy, another three as ensign, ten or twelve on varied space duty in the lieutenant grades...

Lore interrupted Data at that point so we only had a general idea of how long it had been. We were also given a general idea in that episode of how much time had lapsed when Geordi says that he thought the land could have supported farming 20 to 30 years earlier.

Edited by Takara_Soong

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I don't remember the timeline of when we learned Data's backstory but when the episode was written and aired was it known that Data was found and later joined Starfleet or at that point did we only know that Data was a Starfleet officer?

We didn't know exactly how long Data had been in Starfleet but we did know that it had been many years. From the season 1 episode Datalore:

LORE: Will I soon have a uniform like that, my brother?

DATA: If you get one the way I did, Lore, it means four years at the Academy, another three as ensign, ten or twelve on varied space duty in the lieutenant grades...

Lore interrupted Data at that point so we only had a general idea of how long it had been. We were also given a general idea in that episode of how much time had lapsed when Geordi says that he thought the land could have supported farming 20 to 30 years earlier.

Did Datalore come before Measure of a Man or after? If it came after then that could explain why the writers wrote an eopisode where it was being debated whether or not Data was property or not.

 

If we already know that Data joined Starfleet after being activated and he joined of his own free will then the episode doesn't make sense and I've thought that before myself.

 

It would be like Starfleet Medical wanting to do some experimants on Riker that might end up killing him and then refusing to let him resign if he refuses the experiments.

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*walks in*

 

Did Datalore come before Measure of a Man or after? If it came after then that could explain why the writers wrote an eopisode where it was being debated whether or not Data was property or not.

 

Datalore was season 1, Measure Of A Man was season 2. :batman:

 

*walks out* *is no Data expert* :yahoo:

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*walks in*

 

Did Datalore come before Measure of a Man or after? If it came after then that could explain why the writers wrote an eopisode where it was being debated whether or not Data was property or not.

 

Datalore was season 1, Measure Of A Man was season 2. :batman:

 

*walks out* *is no Data expert* :yahoo:

I was thinking that but was too lazy to look it up, I had been awake for A LOT of hours when I posted that lol. Though I thought Riker didn't have a beard in that episode.

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The other timeline problem I had with this episode was the casting of Bruce Maddox. The guy who played him (Brian Brophy) didn't look old enough to have been on the Academy committee at the time Data would have applied. He would have been barely a teenage at the time Data applied.

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Hey people :clap: ........Fasinating Discussion..........

 

 

Like Mrs.. Picard, I am hardly Mr. Data on everything Star Trek, but TNG is definitely the show I love most, and know best of all....

 

 

There are some other factors to consider on this subject .....

 

We learned later in the series, that Data was on a colony that the "Crystalline Entity" destroyed, and Data was the only one that survives...

 

Was this suppose to be when Star Fleet found him, or was he already in Star Fleet and on assignment with this colony?

 

 

Another note...... Wasn't it Commander Maddox that Data was writing a letter too in "Data's Day", going through a supposed 'Typical Day in the Life of Data'?

 

 

Like I said, Im hardly an encyclopedia....I have the dvd sets, I'm tempted to research all this LOL :clap:

Edited by I.Q.

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The other timeline problem I had with this episode was the casting of Bruce Maddox. The guy who played him (Brian Brophy) didn't look old enough to have been on the Academy committee at the time Data would have applied. He would have been barely a teenage at the time Data applied.

 

That's a good point Takara, I forget how long Data had been in Starfleet at the time we meet him but wasn't it something like 18 years?

 

Hey people :clap: ........Fasinating Discussion..........

 

 

Like Mrs.. Picard, I am hardly Mr. Data on everything Star Trek, but TNG is definitely the show I love most, and know best of all....

 

 

There are some other factors to consider on this subject .....

 

We learned later in the series, that Data was on a colony that the "Crystalline Entity" destroyed, and Data was the only one that survives...

 

Was this suppose to be when Star Fleet found him, or was he already in Star Fleet and on assignment with this colony?

 

 

Another note...... Wasn't it Commander Maddox that Data was writing a letter too in "Data's Day", going through a supposed 'Typical Day in the Life of Data'?

 

 

Like I said, Im hardly an encyclopedia....I have the dvd sets, I'm tempted to research all this LOL :clap:

 

No, Data wasn't in Starfleet at the time of the disaster of the Cryslalline Entity. Data explained that after he was activated he decided do follow the path of those Starfleet officers that had found him so he entered Starfleet.

 

Yes, it was to Maddox that he was writing to in Data's Day. At the end of "Measure" they somewhat "made up" and so Data was prividing Maddox with information, I would assume frequently and not just in Data's Day.

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No, Data wasn't in Starfleet at the time of the disaster of the Cryslalline Entity. Data explained that after he was activated he decided do follow the path of those Starfleet officers that had found him so he entered Starfleet.

 

Yes, it was to Maddox that he was writing to in Data's Day. At the end of "Measure" they somewhat "made up" and so Data was prividing Maddox with information, I would assume frequently and not just in Data's Day.

 

 

In "Data Lore", wasn't there a short disccussion between Riker and Data, making the case that Data had been found on that planet?

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No, Data wasn't in Starfleet at the time of the disaster of the Crystalline Entity. Data explained that after he was activated he decided do follow the path of those Starfleet officers that had found him so he entered Starfleet.

 

Yes, it was to Maddox that he was writing to in Data's Day. At the end of "Measure" they somewhat "made up" and so Data was providing Maddox with information, I would assume frequently and not just in Data's Day.

 

 

In "Data Lore", wasn't there a short disccussion between Riker and Data, making the case that Data had been found on that planet?

Yes, Dr. Soong had deactivated Data and when Starfleet found him they reactivated him. The only memories that he had were those of the colonists, so in a sense Data "imprinted" on the Starfleet officers and that's why he decided to join.

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Yes, Dr. Soong had deactivated Data and when Starfleet found him they reactivated him. The only memories that he had were those of the colonists, so in a sense Data "imprinted" on the Starfleet officers and that's why he decided to join.

Don't mean to be really nitpicky but Data reactivated when the Starfleet personnel approached him as compared to the Starfleet personnel actually reactivating him.

 

Regarding why Data joined Starfleet, Kevin nailed it. In Brothers, when Dr. Soong asks Data why he chose to join Starfleet Data responded that it was because Starfleet had rescued him. As Dr. Soong put it, Data chose to emulate his emancipators.

 

By the way, there was another reference to how long Data was in Starfleet other than what was said in Datalore. In Redemption Part II, Data says he has "26 years of Starfleet service" when he was asking Picard why he wasn't given command of a ship for the blockade. Redemption is supposed to have taken place in 2368 while The Measure of a Man is supposed to have been set in 2365. Non-canon sources indicate Data was found in 2338 so there were a few years between when he was found and when he entered the Academy in 1841.

 

It's a good thing they decided to ignore the comment about when Data graduated from the Academy in Encounter at Farpoint. In that he said he was Class of '78 which would have put him in Starfleet for 85+ years at the time of The Measure of a Man.

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Yes, Dr. Soong had deactivated Data and when Starfleet found him they reactivated him. The only memories that he had were those of the colonists, so in a sense Data "imprinted" on the Starfleet officers and that's why he decided to join.

Don't mean to be really nitpicky but Data reactivated when the Starfleet personnel approached him as compared to the Starfleet personnel actually reactivating him.

 

Isn't that the same thing though? Their approach reactivated him, had they not approached him he'd have remained deactivated. So they reactivated him, right? <_<

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Yes, Dr. Soong had deactivated Data and when Starfleet found him they reactivated him. The only memories that he had were those of the colonists, so in a sense Data "imprinted" on the Starfleet officers and that's why he decided to join.

Don't mean to be really nitpicky but Data reactivated when the Starfleet personnel approached him as compared to the Starfleet personnel actually reactivating him.

 

Isn't that the same thing though? Their approach reactivated him, had they not approached him he'd have remained deactivated. So they reactivated him, right? B)

Aren't semantics a beautiful thing. B) Their presence caused him to reactivate but they wouldn't have known how to reactivate him if Dr. Soong hadn't programmed him to reactivate when he was approached. <_<

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Yes, Dr. Soong had deactivated Data and when Starfleet found him they reactivated him. The only memories that he had were those of the colonists, so in a sense Data "imprinted" on the Starfleet officers and that's why he decided to join.

Don't mean to be really nitpicky but Data reactivated when the Starfleet personnel approached him as compared to the Starfleet personnel actually reactivating him.

 

Isn't that the same thing though? Their approach reactivated him, had they not approached him he'd have remained deactivated. So they reactivated him, right? B)

Aren't semantics a beautiful thing. B) Their presence caused him to reactivate but they wouldn't have known how to reactivate him if Dr. Soong hadn't programmed him to reactivate when he was approached. <_<

So their approach is what reactivated him and their approach was an active action on their part which is what reactivated him... B) You see where I'm going, right?

 

:P

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You see where I'm going, right?

 

B)

I see you're going straight to insanity. About time you joined me there. <_<

 

It is a bit of chicken and the egg in a way. Perhaps that was the paradox that Data and Geordi had created for Hugh to take back to the Borg. B)

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