Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 5, 2003 In the early seasons, O'Brien's rank was ensign, however, when I started watching regularly, it was the season 4 premiere, Worf was joining the cast, and O'Brien's new rank was chief. When did O'Brien go from ensign to chief, and what does "chief" signify? THANKS! B) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrekkieMage 0 Posted July 5, 2003 Chief is basically Chief of Opperations, or something like that. I'm not certain what the official explination is, but I think It's just saying that he has more responsibility and he's the head of a sub-division of Enginering or whatever. But I'm not sure...So don't be sure of what I just said B) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 5, 2003 Well, I know what "Chief of Opperations" means, just like LaForge from TNG was the "Chief Engineer". However, O'Brien was allways called chief once his rank-pip changed. With this said, how come O'Brien got a special "chief" rank, and how does it fit into the rank structure? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrekkieMage 0 Posted July 5, 2003 Well, I know what "Chief of Opperations" means, just like LaForge from TNG was the "Chief Engineer". However, O'Brien was allways called chief once his rank-pip changed. With this said, how come O'Brien got a special "chief" rank, and how does it fit into the rank structure? I think it may be that he's the Chief of a sub-division of Enginering. If I remember correctly, his department was working with Transporters, so he's in charge of Transporters, however, since it's a sub-division of Enginering he gets to report to LaForge and takes orders from him and stuff. I think. I hope I'm not confusing you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 5, 2003 LaForge was "Chief Engineer", but he didn't hold the rank of chief. Heck, all the senior officers on Trek are the "chief" of their department, aside from the Captain and 1st officer as they're in charge. Anyway, when O'Brien became "Chief of Opperations" of DS9, he, essentially, had a job that was like a hybrid of LaForge and Data's job on the Enterprise. Basically, O'Brien was the chief engineer of DS9, but officially called the "Chief of Opperations", thus being a senior officer. Perhaps "Chief" is a rank used for some officers assigned to space stations? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrekkieMage 0 Posted July 5, 2003 LaForge was "Chief Engineer", but he didn't hold the rank of chief. Heck, all the senior officers on Trek are the "chief" of their department, aside from the Captain and 1st officer as they're in charge. Anyway, when O'Brien became "Chief of Opperations" of DS9, he, essentially, had a job that was like a hybrid of LaForge and Data's job on the Enterprise. Basically, O'Brien was the chief engineer of DS9, but officially called the "Chief of Opperations", thus being a senior officer. Perhaps "Chief" is a rank used for some officers assigned to space stations? I'm not sure...I don't know all the fine points of the StarFleet chain of command, sorry! B) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ddillard 2 Posted July 5, 2003 O'brien was referred to as Chief on the Enterprise because he was the Transporter Chief, and on DS9 because the was the Chief of Operations. The title was used for him because he was a non-commissioned officer, meaning he did not go to the academy, and he could not obtain a rank such as Lieutenant, Commander, etc. It was a way of showing him respect, just as for example LaForge was addressed as Commander. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 5, 2003 Then how come he was an ensign durring TNG and the early days of DS9? B) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ddillard 2 Posted July 5, 2003 Then how come he was an ensign durring TNG and the early days of DS9? B) As for rank, he is an ensign. A non-commissioned officer cannot advance any higher in actual rank, again that is why he was referred to by his title not his rank. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LadyNarana 0 Posted July 5, 2003 I just rewatched the episode about his wedding (sorry, can't remember the title), and he is referred to as "Chief" at least once. I remember thinking that it just sounded right, even though the setting was "wrong." B) I knew the Ensign had something to do with him being a noncom. Is there ANY time a noncom can rise higher than that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 5, 2003 Well, he has the rank of "ensign", which is an officer rank, right? So, how did he get promoted to the rank of "chief"? (that funny-looking black pip) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ddillard 2 Posted July 6, 2003 The ranking system is different for commissioned and non commissioned officers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 6, 2003 Oh, so if you were enlisted, you'd start off as an ensign like an officer, then move on to a different ranking system? If so, I think I get it now. B) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam The Smuggler 1 Posted July 6, 2003 In TNG, I recall Him sometimes having 1 pip and sometimes having 2 pips. I read something about O'Brien in one my Star Trek The Magazine Issues and I think that the main thing was that they didn't really know what they were doing when putting Ranks on his Uniform, lol I'll have to read it again sometime and get back to you to be sure though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 6, 2003 Well, I allways thought his "chief" rank was like a special engineer rank or something as they never said, as far as I can remember, that he was enlisted. Anywho, Tuvok on VOY started off as a Lt. Comm, but allways was called Lt. Then his 3rd pip vanished later on... and in season 3, he got promoted to Lt. Comm, thus getting his 3rd pip back. Funny how they goof sometimes, eh? They put so much effort into the show, so I just let these things slide. B) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
~Crims~ 0 Posted July 6, 2003 Well, he has the rank of "ensign", which is an officer rank, right? So, how did he get promoted to the rank of "chief"? (that funny-looking black pip) The Ensign thing at the beginning of TNG was just one of those writer slips. There was a lot of contradictory stuff with the Ensign and Chief thing early on, and not just with O'Brien. I don't think it was till about Season 5 or so that the writers and producers finally came to a continuity agreement as to what O'Brien's rank was. As for DS9 I can't comment on because I don't remember season 1 that well and I haven't read any behind the scenes type stuff for it yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 0 Posted July 6, 2003 Stardate:213512.1 Well I dont pay attention to the writers screw ups.Trying to figure them out gives me a headache. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted July 6, 2003 They messed up in the early days with his rank pips. He is a Chief petty officer (which is not an officer at all). You have to understand rank structure itself to understand the difference in Enlisted and Officer ranks. Not all enlisted ranks are Non-Commissioned Officers but all officer ranks are officers. In the Army the Enlisted ranks are as such (I tell of Army rank because I was in the Army and know it best): (the E-1 to E-9 is the pay grade) E-1 Private (No rank insignia) E-2 Private E-3 Private First Class E-4 Specialist E-4 Corporal (Jr. NCO) E-5 Sergeant (NCO) E-6 Staff Sergeant E-7 Sergeant First Class E-8 Master Sergeant E-8 First Sergeant E-9 Sergeant Major E-9 Command Sergeant Major E-9 Sergeant Major Of The Army The above ranks are people that enlisted in the army, did not go to college or had very little college. Sergeant Major of the Army is the highest enlisted rank in the Army and there is only ever 1 Sgt Major of the Army at a time. The officer ranks go from 2nd Lt. to General of the Army. It is possible for an enlisted person to become an officer in a few ways. A battlefield commission, OCS (Officer Candidate School) or becoming a Warrant Officer (Army helicopter pilots are Warrant Officers). Chief O'Brein is a Chief Petty Officer which is the same as an E-7 in the US military. The Navy has a Chief Petty Officer rank so this is what is meant when they call him "Chief". I myself, when I was in the Army was called Specialist Richards by people that didn't know me very well and since it's not protocol in the Army to use first names my friends called me Rich, sometimes Richy Rich. I hope this answers your question, I have often wished that TPTB had paid closer attention to the rank structure and insignia that they used. We really should have seen more enlisted ranks, not everyone is an officer and anyone that's been in the military knows that the bulk of any real work is done by the enlisted ranks (Usually by the E-5s and below). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Kabong 0 Posted July 10, 2003 I hope this answers your question, I have often wished that TPTB had paid closer attention to the rank structure and insignia that they used. We really should have seen more enlisted ranks, not everyone is an officer and anyone that's been in the military knows that the bulk of any real work is done by the enlisted ranks (Usually by the E-5s and below). We have seen a few other enlisted crew. The engineers serving under O'Brien like Muniz and those other guys in the episode "Starship Down" were enlisted crew, I believe, and not officers. I seem to recall O'Brien telling Worf as such in order to get him to be easier on the grunts in the middle of a crisis. However, we don't know what their exact ranks were. The official Star Trek site lists O'Brien's rank as "Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist". I'm not sure what the second part of that rank means, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted July 10, 2003 I hope this answers your question, I have often wished that TPTB had paid closer attention to the rank structure and insignia that they used. We really should have seen more enlisted ranks, not everyone is an officer and anyone that's been in the military knows that the bulk of any real work is done by the enlisted ranks (Usually by the E-5s and below). We have seen a few other enlisted crew. The engineers serving under O'Brien like Muniz and those other guys in the episode "Starship Down" were enlisted crew, I believe, and not officers. I seem to recall O'Brien telling Worf as such in order to get him to be easier on the grunts in the middle of a crisis. However, we don't know what their exact ranks were. The official Star Trek site lists O'Brien's rank as "Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist". I'm not sure what the second part of that rank means, though. I'm not sure what "senior chief specialist" might be, probably a division within his rank structure. Like in the Army ranks above, Master Sergeant and First Sergeant are the same except that a First Sergeant (E-8) is in charge of a Company and a Master Sergeant is just an E-8 doing whatever his job is. Same with Sergeant Major vs. Command Sergeant Major. The Command Sergeant Major (E-9) is in charge of a Battalion where the Sergeant Major is just an E-9 doing his job. We didn't see many enlisted people in the series though, we did see the few you mentioned but not many more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmy84 0 Posted July 12, 2003 O'Briens rank actually has another grey pip at the top of the chevrons. I know all military ranks (except for Coast Guard) and a insignia like that would make him a Senior Chief Petty Officer, but theres no way to prover my belief. As for him being referred to Chief of Operations, in the Navy and Coast Guard, rank is usually differnt from the differnt departments. Also, O'Brien's actuall rank was referred to twice. I don't remember the episodes names, but I do know the situation. The first was on TNG on the episode after the Best of Both Worlds. Worf's adoptive father said it was nice to see another Chief Petty Officer when he saw O'Brien. The Second was when Bashir and O'Brien were captured by the Jem'Hadar that were trying to break their addiction to the white. He was referred to as a Chief Petty Officer. I hope this helps a little. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted July 12, 2003 O'Briens rank actually has another grey pip at the top of the chevrons. I know all military ranks (except for Coast Guard) and a insignia like that would make him a Senior Chief Petty Officer, but theres no way to prover my belief. As for him being referred to Chief of Operations, in the Navy and Coast Guard, rank is usually differnt from the differnt departments. Also, O'Brien's actuall rank was referred to twice. I don't remember the episodes names, but I do know the situation. The first was on TNG on the episode after the Best of Both Worlds. Worf's adoptive father said it was nice to see another Chief Petty Officer when he saw O'Brien. The Second was when Bashir and O'Brien were captured by the Jem'Hadar that were trying to break their addiction to the white. He was referred to as a Chief Petty Officer. I hope this helps a little. Here's a link for Star Trek enlisted and NCO ranks. http://www.tangofleet.org/ranks/ranks3.htm This one ss for Sr. Chief Petty Officer: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Data 0 Posted July 12, 2003 I got only one thing to say about O'Brien's rank. They messed up in the first few years of TNG. For a while he had two buttons, Lt, then he got a promotion, one button. Finally when he went to DS9, the enlisted rank was showing. O'Brien's rank was confusing and made no sense until DS9. It bothered me but I brushed it off as a misunderstanding the clothing people had in millitary ranks as VBG stated. I guess Roddenberry had little to do with the uniforms in the show. Actually, if you notice, that everybody on the Enterprise in TOS were officers. The reason goes back to the people who became NASA Astronauts in the early space race. In order to be considered to go to space, you had to be an officer in one of the millitary forces. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ddillard 2 Posted July 12, 2003 I agree it was a mistake on the part of the costume people that did not understand the ranks properly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 13, 2003 Did anyone notice that he had an ensign rank pip durring the first season or 2 of DS9? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Data 0 Posted July 13, 2003 Did anyone notice that he had an ensign rank pip durring the first season or 2 of DS9? It has been a long time since I saw the first season of DS9. But I think you are correct, they did not correct the rank until DS9 was on for a while. What is strange is how TNG deviated from TOS in the rank rules about not having non coms in the crew. Also, I found it weird that they had family on board. After a while, I guess I stopped thinking about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted July 13, 2003 There was nothing strange about the Enterprise-D. It was a massive starship, but Starfleet standards, and was also a ship of explorration and diplomacy. The ship had a population of arround 1,000 people. About 900 were crew, while the other 100 were famliles, passengers, and so forth. Other starships have been known to have families. Ensign Wildman was pregnant with Naomi on Voyager for almost 2 years, Lt. Comm. Sisko had his wife, Jennifer, and his son, Jake, on the Saratoga. It all just depends on the ship and/or class. My guess is that both the Galaxy and Nebua-class ships carried lots of families while most other ships just had a few, probably about 5 or so per a ship. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JTKirk1 0 Posted July 13, 2003 There was nothing strange about the Enterprise-D. It was a massive starship, but Starfleet standards, and was also a ship of explorration and diplomacy. The ship had a population of arround 1,000 people. About 900 were crew, while the other 100 were famliles, passengers, and so forth. Other starships have been known to have families. Ensign Wildman was pregnant with Naomi on Voyager for almost 2 years, Lt. Comm. Sisko had his wife, Jennifer, and his son, Jake, on the Saratoga. It all just depends on the ship and/or class. My guess is that both the Galaxy and Nebua-class ships carried lots of families while most other ships just had a few, probably about 5 or so per a ship. I totaly agree with you, no matter how big or small the ship it always had at least one or two families on them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam The Smuggler 1 Posted July 13, 2003 After while, I stopped Caring what his Rank was...cause they obviously didn't care, LOL Sometimes, I was half-expecting his to have 4 Pips, But then they fixed it in DS9 it seems, so that's cool :huh: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Kabong 0 Posted July 20, 2003 Did anyone notice that he had an ensign rank pip durring the first season or 2 of DS9? Actually, that's not exactly true. He had a single hollow pip (like the third pip in the lieutenant commander pip designation), which is somewhat correct if it's meant to say that an ensign outranks him. I'm guessing that, at the time, before they came up with real enlisted insignia, this was the best way they could express an enlisted rank. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites