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Jim Phaserman

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Raliegh, North Carolina recieved one inch (1 inch) of snow about 4 days ago. a prominent local official (Can't remember if it was the Mayor of Raliegh or the Governor of North Carolina) wanted to declare the area a disaster area, because of the problems resultant from the snow. Now, I personally find this to be somewhat amusing, since We're getting hammered here in Illinois right now, expecting between 10-15 inches of snow by tommorow afternoon. Do ya think the North Carolinians over-reacted? Were they under-prepared? What say you?

 

 

 

As a side note, I can still find my golf ball, and the green, in an inch of snow.

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Inch of snow! A disaster area! They got to be joking, right?!?! Sorry, but that is not a disaster. The officials in the area over-reacted. The federal and state government should not give any funds to Raleigh, North Carolina. They are not in the business of taking care of cities and/or towns that can't prepared for a light dusting of snow, which most likely it is already gone.

 

Being from Buffalo, New York where it can get 3 to 7 FEET of snow in few days I find it funny that one area of country should call 1 inch of snow a disaster. Take that back, it's not funny it's insulting.

 

On a side note, Buffalo was the first city in the country to be declared federal disaster area do to snow. It happen on January 27, 1977. It was the worst blizzard to hit the area. Close to 30 people died in a few days. :spock: Even though I was a small child at that time I still have memories of that blizzard.

Edited by Odie

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You have to understand, there are areas of the nation that don't get snow at all. Their infrastructure (pipes, electrical lines, phone lines etc..) are not constructed to withstand snow and ice and a harsh winter. So 1 inch of snow in northern cities may be like a spring say at the beach but in those areas that don't get snow it's like getting 4 ft of snow.

 

If there was extensive damage to their electrical grid and thousands of people were without power and water mains burst leaving thousands of people without water it would be understandable that a disaster area be declared. Keep in mind that a "disaster area" doesn't mean that they are comparing themselves to what happened in Asia or other real disasters, it's just a designation that will allow them to apply for federal money to repair the damage done.

 

It will enable families to apply for low interest (and in some case no interest) loans to help repair any damage that their homeowners insurance does not cover.

 

An example of what being a Disaster Area does for the residents, many of you will remember that my area got hit hard by a hurricane a year and a half ago and I was offline for about a week. My parents were also without electricity for over a week and their generator quit working about 24 hours into the outage. After the about a week they were able to buy a new generator for about $1,000. Since the area was declared a disaster area and because my father had a medical need for a generator the government paid the $1000 for the generator.

 

Without that declaration of being a disaster area my parents would have had to pay that $1000 out of their pensions.

 

So it may seem odd to declare a disaster area for 1 inch of snow but you need to look and see what kind of physical damage that 1 inch of snow caused.

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Here is an article on the subject.

 

Click For Spoiler
Blame game begins as North Carolina capital thaws from inch-deep chaos

By MARGARET LILLARD

Associated Press Writer

 

RALEIGH, N.C. - An inch of snow crippled North Carolina's capital and prompted plenty of finger-pointing as the city thawed from the surprise storm that caused epic gridlock and left 3,000 students stranded overnight.

 

A TV weatherman hung his head in shame before a local audience, calling his prediction of just a dusting "embarrassing." The governor accused local officials of putting him on hold when he called seeking to open shelters. And the mayor said the city's overall poor response was due largely to the botched forecasts.

 

"A forecast that had given a better indication of the likely problem would have been very helpful," Mayor Charles Meeker said as temperatures and tempers rose.

 

Residents _ particularly those who emigrated from other parts of the country _ couldn't believe the city was brought to its knees by just an inch of snow.

 

"I just don't think they're equipped to handle it," said Lori Jamieson.

 

Where's she's from in Pennsylvania "this just doesn't happen. If they have a forecast anything is coming, they'd have those trucks sitting on the road somewhere, ready to go."

 

That was not the case Wednesday. When the dry snow hit already frigid streets at midday, it turned to ice just as schools and businesses scrambled to close early. That sent thousands of cars onto the streets before road crews and salt trucks could treat them.

 

Police handled more than 1,000 accidents, none fatal, and some people were caught in miles-long traffic jams that left them on the roads for more than eight hours. Buses were unable to take children home from school, stranding nearly 3,000 in their classrooms with their teachers overnight. Some motorists who couldn't get home bunked with others in office buildings and even grocery stores.

 

"This is embarrassing for my profession," a contrite WRAL-TV chief meteorologist Greg Fishel told viewers during the height of the chaos. "In the 24 years I've lived here, I have never encountered the traffic situation I saw today."

 

But he was not alone. None of the television meteorologists made the right call, evoking memories of December 2002, when they failed to predict the severity of an ice storm that plunged much of the Carolinas into darkness for more than a week.

 

Raleigh avoided another hit Friday when temperatures didn't drop enough there and points south to get the one to two inches that had been predicted. The forecast held in areas north of Raleigh, such as Durham, Roxboro, Nashville, Louisburg, Oxford and Warrenton.

 

For the weekend, the weather models vehemently disagree, with some bringing winter weather north of North Carolina and others having drop no farther south than West Virginia or Pennsylvania, said hydrometeorologist Mike Strickler of the National Weather Service.

 

The main concern is with the northern counties where snow fell Friday and the Triad area, including Winston-Salem and Greensboro, he said.

 

As far as Wednesday's weather woes, Meeker said city workers could have been ready if forecasts had given a hint that icy roads could be a problem.

 

Absent guidance to the contrary, people responded to the foul weather as they usually do in this region, shutting down early and going home. Had the city known that the roads were icing over, Meeker said, it would have advised people to stay at work and school late, so that crews could put salt on the streets before they filled with traffic.

 

It wasn't until late Wednesday that Gov. Mike Easley declared a state of emergency, allowing him to open two state government buildings in downtown Raleigh as shelters to accommodate drivers.

 

But that came after some tense, behind-the-scenes calls Easley personally made to Wake County officials asking them to make shelters available.

 

Bryan Beatty, state secretary of crime control and public safety, said the governor was put on hold and the officials were "not responsive," an accusation the county's public safety director denied.

 

A terse e-mail from Easley's office accompanying his order said: "the governor has declared a state of emergency so that the state could open the state buildings for shelters since Wake County did not open any."

 

Meeker wants to avoid a repeat of Wednesday's disaster and acknowledged that the city should have had some kind of plan for handling the situation _ unusual as it was _ once it occurred. The mayor said he has asked department leaders to come up with ideas for such a plan within the next week or two.

 

"I think everybody worked extremely hard to get through the situation. But I do think if we'd had a good policy in place and communicated it to the public, we could have lessened the disruption."

 

Even though area may not get snow on a regular bases they do have the equipment to handle ice. It is almost the same equipment that is used for snow. Mayoral office was not responding to the weather. There was no plan of action that came from the mayor, “If only I had a better forecast." That is load of… He just had to look out the window and see it was snowing and have the crews put out salt on the streets. Anyone who knows that water freezes at 32 degrees would have to common sense to put salt on the roads. He even had the governor on hold when he was trying to see what help that they may need. Because he was placed on hold, he declared a state of emergency so could open state building for emergency shelters. That is something the mayor should have done and not the governor. This emergency was man made nature had nothing to do with it.

 

You have to understand, there are areas of the nation that don't get snow at all. Their infrastructure (pipes, electrical lines, phone lines etc..) are not constructed to withstand snow and ice and a harsh winter. So 1 inch of snow in northern cities may be like a spring say at the beach but in those areas that don't get snow it's like getting 4 ft of snow.

 

It was lack of a plan and response from the mayoral office that made situation far worse than it was. Plus it wasn't the snow that brought the city to the halt it was the ice on the roads.

 

They should be very thankful that they never experience 4ft of snow. Fact is 1 inch of snow is not a lot and doesn't do much damage by itself. Now 4 feet of snow can cause lots of damage. It can cause roofs to cave-in if they are not pitched at a current angle. Not only it might cause the electric grid to come down also be able to cause all the power lines to come down. They are still the same power lines that are used everywhere in the country. They are nothing special about them in the North. If the snow is newly fallen and winds are blowing they will cause dangerous white outs. White outs are very dangerous, because you can’t see anything with a few inches and that if you are lucky. Sometime you can’t see the tip of your own nose. The snowdrift that wind causes can be over 8ft with just 4ft of snow. With a snowdrift they can close down roads and make almost impossible to keep them open. Now does that make 1 inch of snow sound better than 4 feet.

 

I really don't have any sympathy for anyone who thinks 1 inch of snow is a lot and can't deal with it. These are the same people who joke about Buffalo's winters and how much snow the city gets. Then when they have very small taste of what Buffalo gets in the winter they can't handle it.

 

If there was extensive damage to their electrical grid and thousands of people were without power and water mains burst leaving thousands of people without water it would be understandable that a disaster area be declared. Keep in mind that a "disaster area" doesn't mean that they are comparing themselves to what happened in Asia or other real disasters, it's just a designation that will allow them to apply for federal money to repair the damage done.

 

It as happens in the every single winter in the North. There are several witers where it got bad enough the electric grid was knocked out. The snow wasn't the cause it was winds that guested over 50 mph that knock out the grid.

 

Water main freezes and bust almost every single week in Buffalo. That happens when the temp are below 32 degree. It doesn't matter where you live. If the pipes are old and rusty they will burst. In Buffalo, they are quckly repaired and services are restore within few hours. Buffalo winters in itself causes damages, but it rarely every called a "disater area".

 

It will enable families to apply for low interest (and in some case no interest) loans to help repair any damage that their homeowners insurance does not cover.

 

An example of what being a Disaster Area does for the residents, many of you will remember that my area got hit hard by a hurricane a year and a half ago and I was offline for about a week. My parents were also without electricity for over a week and their generator quit working about 24 hours into the outage. After the about a week they were able to buy a new generator for about $1,000. Since the area was declared a disaster area and because my father had a medical need for a generator the government paid the $1000 for the generator.

 

Without that declaration of being a disaster area my parents would have had to pay that $1000 out of their pensions.

 

So it may seem odd to declare a disaster area for 1 inch of snow but you need to look and see what kind of physical damage that 1 inch of snow caused.

 

Hurricanes and 1 inch of snow is not the same thing. Hurricanes causes lots of damages to the area and that is why they are called national disasters. That is when the funds are for and not for 1 inch of snow and lack of planning.

Edited by Odie

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About 6 years ago, Texas was hit with a winter storm, dropping about 4 inches of snow on Northern Texas. you wanna talk unprepared? the Texans' idea of snow removal equipment is the sun! hell, they don't even have salting equipment, I don't think. it was a mess. My dad was stuck in Tucumcari for 3 or 4 days because the Interstate was so bad.

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Now, I said 10-15 inches by later this afternoon. I'd say we've got our 10-15 now, though those measurements probably are a bit skewed, since they are coming from my driveway. I wonder if anyone in Raliegh has ever tried to shovel out 9 cubic meters of snow? (at some parts of my driveway, the snow is piled up almost a meter high. Try that for a morning workout!)

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I too have lived where snowfall is measured in feet not inches. And I've lived in places that don't regularly see snow. So I know that an inch of snow in Utah is not the same as an inch of snow in Florida. Just like I try to understand why some cities call a week of 90+ degree temperatures a "heat wave"

 

I really don't know about NC, but I know it's easy to place blame - I know during one of the last hurricanes (I forget which one there were so many) the Mayor of a large city didn't open shelters because the city wasn't predicted to get much wind - then they're trying to open shelters in the height of the storm because the predictions were wrong. It's a no win situation - if you're cautious and open shelters and issue warnings and nothing happens people get lackadaisical and don't prepare when it really does get bad (this is genuine concern every year - though I expect that wont' be the case this year). So if the weather is worse than predicted - well then you're a screw up for not predicting the future.

 

Another issue I didn't see mentioned is the demographics of the population - if you live in a town where everyone grew up in snow it's a very different situation than living where there are a lot of transplants from places that never see snow. It doesn't matter if you can drive in snow if half the cars on the road are being driven by people who can't (that's when you truly wish they'd close the city and ask everyone to stay home :spock: )

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a couple of years back, here in toronto, we had the worst winter storm in nigh on fifty years - 'twas so bad, we had almost a metre'n'half ('bout five feet or so?) of snow EVERYWHERE - the city was gridlocked for days...

 

being one of the southernmost cities in canada, and outside of the snowbelt, we were laughed at by folks in montreal and winnipeg, yellowknife fersure, when the mayor called the army in to help us out - but to be here (and come on, eh? we've seen snow...), 'twas a disaster - hydro lines down, transit immovable - hospitals couldn't bring in the sick, ya know?

 

i see points on both sides, but the way i figure it is this - if someone says they're in trouble, you help first and ask questions (lay blame) later...

Edited by joeybear

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a couple of years back, here in toronto, we had the worst winter storm in nigh on fifty years - 'twas so bad, we had almost a metre'n'half ('bout five feet or so?) of snow EVERYWHERE - the city was gridlocked for days...

 

being one of the southernmost cities in canada, and outside of the snowbelt, we were laughed at by folks in montreal and winnipeg, yellowknife fersure,  when the mayor called the army in to help us out - but to be here (and come on, eh? we've seen snow...), 'twas a disaster - hydro lines down, transit immovable - hospitals couldn't bring in the sick, ya know?

 

i see points on both sides, but the way i figure it is this - if someone says they're in trouble, you help first and ask questions (lay blame) later...

297755[/snapback]

 

He's not joking about the laughter coming from other areas of the country back in 1999. I know people in Winnipeg were laughing at the mayor of Toronto when he called the city a disaster area and wanted to bring in the armed forces to help clear the streets. What happened in Toronto wouldn't have been considered a blizzard on the Prairies, just another snowstorm.

 

The problem they had then was another not being prepared situation IMO. The city budget for snow clearing was the lowest amount per capita in the country. That's why that blizzard was a disaster.

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There is a difference when a place that never gets snow never will have the equipment to handle it and places that do have the equipment. I wouldn't expect places in the Deep South to get snow and have the equipment to handle it. Raleigh, North Carolina does have salters, which they didn't use. The mayor failed to act in a timely fashion that would have prevented the city from shutting down. Even the mayor had the governor of the state on hold while trying to see how he could help. The problem didn't come from the snow. As I said before 1 inch of snow in itself doesn't cause much damage. It is when the snow melts and then freezes that when it becomes dangerous. If the salt is not a road before it starts to freezing there will be accidents. That is what had happen in Raleigh, North Carolina. It was the lack of response from the mayoral office that was the major problem.

 

On a side note, Buffalo does help cities that don't now how to handle snow. City has sent equipment and personnel to help other areas of the country. What I am tried of hear all the jokes that cites get because of its winters. For the most part we handle the snow and yet people who never have to deal with large amounts of snow still tease Buffalo. When will the joking end for Buffalo, New York?!?

 

Not to long ago the city got over 7ft of snow in 4 days. It took weeks to remove the snow from the streets. Even Buffalo didn't have enough equipment to handle the amount of snow. Other cities from Toronto to cities in New England loan us some of their equipment. We where grateful for the extra help that the other city gave to Buffalo.

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Being a northern transplant into a southern state (and one who drove the children's car to high school in winter when school was almost never closed) there are always problems here when snowy or icy weather occurs, whether the streets are salted on time or not. Yesterday there were 75 fender-benders in 4 hours in a NC city, even with salted roads and accurate warnings from weathermen about the icy weather. Part of the problem is the response of the average citizen.....folks do not slow down enough, and the TV reporters do not get it right. I heard one today say slow down to Xmph ( still too fast) and leave space between yourself and the driver in front of you (common sense.).

 

The main thing I do to stay out of trouble is to stay as far away from other drivers as I can, because too many folks here tailgate when there is ice on the road, and do not slow down. Absolutely crazy.

Edited by mj

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On a side note, Buffalo does help cities that don't now how to handle snow.  City has sent equipment and personnel to help other areas of the country.  What I am tried of hear all the jokes that cites get because of its winters.  For the most part we handle the snow and yet people who never have to deal with large amounts of snow still tease Buffalo.  When will the joking end for Buffalo, New York?!?

297804[/snapback]

 

I know exactly how you feel, Odie. In some ways, I can deal with the jokes. What I'm tired of are people who have never been to my city putting it down because it gets cold. You know the "why would anyone want to live there" comments. My response is Winnipeg must be a darn great city for so many people to want to live here despite the winters. I'm sure many people in other cities that get those derisive comments feel the same way.

 

Personally, I'd rather deal with snow than a hurricane. Hurricanes are much more destructive than a blizzard.

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Personally, I'd rather deal with snow than a hurricane. Hurricanes are much more destructive than a blizzard.

297891[/snapback]

 

I always look forward to hurricane season, I of course don't want there to be a lot of damage or any deaths but I love a good hurricane. Amy can vouch for me on that one.

 

I also love a good blizzard, as long as I don't have to go anywhere for a few days.

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My mom wanted to move us all there. But I seriously think we'd all die. Look at us, we were born in the tropics and we have to wear 4 inches of padding for 65* weather. Imagine in 1 inch of snow!

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If it snowed an inch in Phoenix people would think it was a sign of the apocalypse. For obvious reasons we have no snow removal equipment here. I once saw an inch of snow when I was a toddler living in Oklahoma but I barely remember it.

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It's funny - this morning I was watching news about the NE storms and I was thinking - I'm glad there are people that like living in the snow - Florida is too crowded as it is. I am one of those people who could never live in Canada. I lived in Utah and then in Virginia when I was younger and that was enough for me - and that's not nearly as cold as Canada gets.

 

Actually sea trooper - I think you could adapt - I had a relative that lived in Montana for several years and I lived in snow (not as cold as Canada) and I shoveled snow, jogged in the snow and even drove in it (on hills even) and did crazy things like sledding down a hill on an inner tube in the snow. I don't like cold but it's the driving in it that really gets to me.

 

I have heard that people that live in colder climates live longer. :spock:

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If it snowed an inch in Phoenix people would think it was a sign of the apocalypse. For obvious reasons we have no snow removal equipment here. I once saw an inch of snow when I was a toddler living in Oklahoma but I barely remember it.

297930[/snapback]

:spock: This strikes me as funny probably because I'm about to go outside and shovel 2 feet + of snow..Yeah, I know in areas that are not used to getting snow 1 inch can cause lots of problems..

 

It's funny - this morning I was watching news about the NE storms and I was thinking - I'm glad there are people that like living in the snow - Florida is too crowded as it is.

There are some people that do like living up here..A lot of us are like me..We're not crazy about the snow but have gotten used to dealing with it..It's really not that bad and the winter is only for a short couple of months here in Massachusetts..

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My brother came home complaining last night. he ended up delivering, and the roads were terrible last night. he said he almost broke his arm trying to wave someone off his behind. I've had people tailgate me in the snow, and in my 4WD Tahoe, I can get away with this, I'll shake the steering wheel a bit. it makes the driver behind you think you are about to spin, and causes them to back off. However, I don't recommend it in heavy snow or with a 2WD vehicle. Gary told me that he was driving a constant 20 MPH, no matter where he was, because any faster and he couldn't garauntee safe braking. Be carefull in snow, and remember, snow can mask something more dangerous: Ice.

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Well during the Christmas Holiday, we got about a foot in a half to two feet of snow here. In the part of Ohio that I live usually the most snow we get is 2 to 6 inches and in the 6 inch snowfalls I arange for my sons by marriage or my husband to drive me around. That nearly two feet of snow had me snowed in for two days and I missed several days of work. I think my point is that people can be come accustom to almost anything but in the area where I live there was a level 3 snow emergency for a day and a half and then on a personal level I had a drift infront of my house and couldn't get out the front door. I also injured myself trying to rescue one of my pets. 1 inch of snow may not be much to some but if you don't know how to deal with it, it might as well be a foot or 10 feet of snow. Edited by BlueCrystal

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We get a few good snow storms a year where I live. The problem with the storms that we get are the ice, most of the city was out of power about a month ago for about a week. The area was not declared a disaster and everything was restored as quickly as the power company could do so.

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There are always some snow storms in Norway during winther. And here it's also common that it's alot of snow each winther.

 

I'm glad there are people that like living in the snow

 

I do like living in the snow, the winther isn't fulfilled without it, and alot of it!

 

:spock:

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I live in North Carolina. I remember when this situation happened, a little more than a week ago. And though to me, the whole thing was ridiculous; you must understand that there are certain parts of North Carolina that are used to dealing with snow and some areas that are not.......Now I personally did not hear anything about Raleigh being declared a disaster area. What I know about the incident is this: First, Raleigh is in the eastern part of NC. They are not used to dealing with this kind of weather, and were not expecting snow that day. When the snow came it caught everyone off guard. Businesses began to shut down, as people were trying to get away from work to get home. With no salt or sand on the roads......and people in the area not used to driving in snow.........all kinds of Serious Traffic accidents occurred that day, which shut down city streets and highways in that area. Automobiles and trucks were even falling from over passes down onto highways below. Children spent the night in schools because, the school buses were not allowed to take the home, and parents couldn't get there, to pick them up. City, state officials, and law officers, were not communicating, about how to deal with the street and road chaos that was taking place. It took 5-6 hours for some people to get home.....And these people actually lived in Raleigh. Raleigh being the capitol city......the Governor has ordered an investigation. But the city wasn't destroyed......so I don't understand it being declared a disaster area.

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Currently in Mass we have 2+ feet goin on three (it's snowing at the moment) they're wimps in NC! lol and I had to shovel most of my driveway w/ the 2+ feet of snow B)

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It's snowed once over the past decade. It was christmas Eve of 2004....

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I remember living in MA and getting well over half a foot of snow. That was called a "no school day," not a "disaster area."

 

:)

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I live on the Outer Banks of North Carolina and they close schools when we get a half inch of snow. Alot of places around here are just not prepared for snow, it doesn't snow enough to warrent spending money on snow cleanup.

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being from NY, when we had an inch or even a dusting of snow here in VA, i was just amazed how bad things got here, and how they closed things up. i got around in my firebird that sucks in the rain, anyone with a decent car would have NO problem in this stuff. and last i knew there were mostly transplants from the north living here so whats the excuse. lol.

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Maybe the DMVs of various states should make driving courses that are slippery so that people can learn how to drive in any conditions. That way, people who learn to drive in Florida don't go to Maine in winter and then wonder why their cars go left when they turn the hweel right.

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