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BlueCrystal

Just the facts Trip - The facts and T'Les

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T'Les told Trip that T'Pol should have all the facts. Yet Koss most likely has no idea that his wife is suffering from Parnar Syndrome and is married to a recovering Trellium addict. Why is it T'Pol should know the facts about Trip's being in love with her but Koss isn't given that consideration? Is there a double standard on Vulcan and it's okay if the female has a disease that would bring shame on Koss's family name and can be a recovering junkie? Come on! Koss deserve better than that!

 

I have to admit I still would love to see T'Pol and Trip together in the end.

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Yes, BC I raised that issue in my review of the series. My only thought is that she did tell him she'd been ill (just not with what) and he said his family had influence. Perhaps she was thinking once they were married - he would use that influence to help her find a cure in order to avoid public shame. Maybe she really was thinking of her mother.

 

Perhaps she wasn't thinking.

 

I think Koss got a bum deal.

 

But then I think Archer got a bum deal - he trusted her and she did the drug thing behind his back while the entire fate of humanity was at stake - so duping Koss isn't that different.

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Aren't you being kind of hard on T'Pol? I mean she did it for her mother. :blink: SHE didn't want to marry him, remember? O_o:laugh:

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Come on Jeanway, this isn't a country club dance where you're going to a dance with a geek because your mother and his are best friends this may be a *lifer* situation. I mean I married Daniel in the Temple and to our believe thats, time and all eternity! Yes dear mother I'll dance with the dork no dear mother you'll have to find someone else to marry him!

Edited by BlueCrystal

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Aren't you being kind of hard on T'Pol? I mean she did it for her mother. :blink: SHE didn't want to marry him, remember? O_o  :laugh:

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Actually, Jeanway we don't know why she married him - but whatever her reason she wasn't honest with him - and his reputation may be damaged because of that.

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Yes, BC I raised that issue in my review of the series.  My only thought is that she did tell him she'd been ill (just not with what) and he said his family had influence.  Perhaps she was thinking once they were married - he would use that influence to help her find a cure in order to avoid public shame.

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Perhaps this could be how the mind meld becomes accepted for Vulcans. If his family is influential enough, it may get rid of the stigma over time.

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T'Pol did tell Koss that she had been ill, and he did not in any way inquire as to ill from what. T'Pol only married him out of a family obligation. He and his family had agreed to use their influence to have her mother reinstated after she had been punished for T'Pol's involvement in the P'Jem incident. I believe that her mother's comment was made out of the fact that she was aware that T'Pol was only marrying for her benefit and she felt that T'Pol should be aware of Trip's feeling for her before she went through with the decision that she had made.

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Aren't you being kind of hard on T'Pol? I mean she did it for her mother. :rolleyes: SHE didn't want to marry him, remember? :lol:  :o

276997[/snapback]

 

Actually, Jeanway we don't know why she married him - but whatever her reason she wasn't honest with him - and his reputation may be damaged because of that.

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:o You do realize U.H., this is all fiction, don't you?

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Aren't you being kind of hard on T'Pol? I mean she did it for her mother. :rolleyes: SHE didn't want to marry him, remember? :o  :o

276997[/snapback]

 

Actually, Jeanway we don't know why she married him - but whatever her reason she wasn't honest with him - and his reputation may be damaged because of that.

277006[/snapback]

 

That's assuming that he ever shows up again. For all we know, he was a one-timer, or maybe a background (way in the background) character.

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Aren't you being kind of hard on T'Pol? I mean she did it for her mother. :rolleyes: SHE didn't want to marry him, remember? :o  :lol:

276997[/snapback]

 

Actually, Jeanway we don't know why she married him - but whatever her reason she wasn't honest with him - and his reputation may be damaged because of that.

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Well, ok, then we DO know why. It was clearly stated. :o I wasn't happy about it either. :o His reputation had nothing to do with anything, as far as I could tell. She didn't want to marry him, remember? He insisted. She obliged, for her mother. They didn't even have a Honeymoon. If she hadn't gone ahead and married him, THAT would have done more damage to HIS reputation, don't you think? Why are you so concerned with him anyway? We just met HIM. My loyalties lie with T'Pol.

Edited by Jeanway

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Well, ok, then we DO know why. It was clearly stated.  I wasn't happy about it either.  His reputation had nothing to do with anything, as far as I could tell. She didn't want to marry him, remember? He insisted. She obliged, for her mother. They didn't even have a Honeymoon. If she hadn't gone ahead and married him, THAT would have done more damage to HIS reputation, don't you think? Why are you so concerned with him anyway? We just met HIM. My loyalties lie with T'Pol.

 

No we don't know - we just heard characters make assumptions.

 

Vulcans don't have Honeymoons.

 

No, I don't know if backing out of the marriage would have damaged his reputation more than Vulcan finding out he was married to an outcast or not. Since this is a fictional culture - I don't know all of its mores. But he had a right to know the facts and make an informed decision.

 

The bottome line - T'Pol was deceptive for personal benefit. (even if the reason was for her mother - it was still a personal benefit)

 

I have to disagree with dd - just because he didn't think to ask if she was harboring a serious secret doesn't mean he didn't have a right to know. The issue with Panar isn't that she was sick but how she got it and the implications it has for one's standing in Vulcan society.

 

Of course there is the possibility he already knew and there is more to this story - and the issue isn't over - it will be revisited in a future episode.

Edited by TheUnicornHunter

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Ten to One, Koss dies this season. Most likely in the Vulcan (war, revolution?) Arc they have planned for later on.

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I hadn't considered that possibility.

 

Do you they he would be a revolutionist, or not?

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O.K. since we a discussing this. Didn't he 'bargain' with her, in the garden? Telling her they'd only have to reside together for one year? Or did I hear that wrong? Next thing we see, T'Pol is back on the ship, when Trip questioned her. I thought she said she went off by herself to "meditate" for two weeks??? And that Vulcans don't have honeymoons. :rolleyes:

 

So what was THAT about? Was it a year later OR two weeks later??? :o {That she was back on the ship?}

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O.K. since we a discussing this. Didn't he 'bargain' with her, in the garden? Telling her they'd only have to reside together for one year? Or did I hear that wrong? Next thing we see, T'Pol is back on the ship, when Trip questioned her. I thought she said she went off by herself to "meditate" for two weeks??? And that Vulcans don't have honeymoons. :rolleyes:

 

  So what was THAT about? Was it a year later OR two weeks later??? :o {That she was back on the ship?}

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He did say that they had to spend a year together, but he didn't say when. Perhaps they agreed that the year would start when the voyages of Enterprise ended?

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Yeah, T'Pol was pretty much forced to marry him to save her mother and to follow Vulcan tradition.

As for Koss and Archer getting a "Bum" deal...I don't see it. Archer is lucky to have her and Koss should be grateful he got to marry her.

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I didn't change my opinion just what my last response was going to be until I thought it over.

 

While I am not T'Pol's biggest fan - I'm not her strongest critic on this board either.

 

KM - you question my statement about Archer getting a bum deal. In another thread you talk about driving while stoned, STF, and from the context I gather you consider this acceptable behavior. Some people disagree and are deeply troubled by people driving while impaired (in whatever manner). Those preferences carry over to fictional characters such as T'Pol.

 

In addition, T'Pol was not honest with Archer and was not honest with Koss. To people that value honesty that is an issue. That is truly a subjective opinon - there's no "law" that you have to value honesty. I just happen to be one of those people that does consider it an issue. And I am as entitled to think it is important as others are to say that it isn't.

 

Actually, the analogy I would use to describe T'Pols failure to tell Koss about Panar Syndrome is a human failing to tell their intended spouse he/she was a registered sex offender. No, I'm not comparing mind meld with the actions of a sex offender but I am comparing the stigma attached. Registered offenders are the only people I can think of that really carry a stigma in modern society. From what I gather a person with Panar Syndrome is a pariah in Vulcan culture and I was trying to think of something equally offensive in human culture.

Edited by TheUnicornHunter

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From the Unicornhunder. KM - you question my statement about Archer getting a bum deal. In another thread you talk about driving while stoned, STF, and from the context I gather you consider this acceptable behavior. Some people disagree and are deeply troubled by people driving while impaired (in whatever manner). Those preferences carry over to fictional characters such as T'Pol.

 

No-one should regard driving while stoned as acceptable behaviour. What justification for it could there ever be for risking the lives of others in order to do something dumb? In the case of T'Pol she was First Officer on a starship. That meant she was responsible for lives. Not only of the crew, but also of the human race they were on a mission to save. To decide to abuse drugs for kicks was utterly reprehensible. To have taken the role of captain once she knew she was addicted and her judgement impaired, was frankly criminal.

 

In addition, T'Pol was not honest with Archer and was not honest with Koss. To people that value honesty that is an issue. That is truly a subjective opinon - there's no "law" that you have to value honesty. I just happen to be one of those people that does consider it an issue. And I am as entitled to think it is important as others are to say that it isn't.

 

In my opinion T'Pol has been dishonest all along since the Trellium. Since she didn't have the Captain's permission to shoot up, we have to assume she stole the Trellium which was, remember, all they had and they couldn't use it to protect themselves because of her. She lied outright to Archer and Trip, claiming her lack of control was due to not meditating. She got Phlox to cover for her having gone to him for help only after Archer told her he was giving away her stash. When Trip was awake for three days straight going from one emergency to another to keep the ship together, she moved repair crews out of the way to get to her drug. She's dishonest, untrustworty, unreliable, has no integrity and pulls this whole show down in her continuing role as First Officer.

 

Actually, the analogy I would use to describe T'Pols failure to tell Koss about Panar Syndrome is a human failing to tell their intended spouse he/she was a registered sex offender. No, I'm not comparing mind meld with the actions of a sex offender but I am comparing the stigma attached. Registered offenders are the only people I can think of that really carry a stigma in modern society. From what I gather a person with Panar Syndrome is a pariah in Vulcan culture and I was trying to think of something equally offensive in human culture.

 

Well, Stigma was meant to be an AIDS analogy. If you take it that way, she got ill through a mind meld that she went into willingly and then later claimed was forced. Granted, the Vulcan in Fusion should have stopped when she asked him to, but her later claims that she was forced into the meld seem mendacious. I believe marrying a Vulcan involves a 'bonding' ceremony that is similar to a mind meld. If she did that with Koss she risked giving him P'nar syndrome. I'd say to go into that without telling him was very wrong.

 

The problem for me with P'nar as an AIDs analogy is that it is, in fact, more an acquired Parkinsons or Altzeimer's Disease. She was suffering from brain damage and it was getting worse. Then, and quite of her own free will, she chose to drug herself up until she was incompetent and Phlox told her, when he found out, that she'd caused extensive brain damage to herself. There's simply no way this person should be the First Officer. Who's to say when this brain damage will affect her judgement permanently? Phlox? That's the guy who covered for her shoddy behaviour and failed in his duty by not taking her out of the command chain when he should have the moment she confessed.

 

Unfortunately, the writers have made T'Pol so morally bankrupt that it's turned me from a fan to someone who can no longer watch. While she remains XO, for me the show condones drug abuse. I find that extremely disappointing.

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T'Les told Trip that T'Pol should have all the facts.  Yet Koss most likely has no idea that his wife is suffering from Parnar Syndrome and is married to a recovering Trellium addict.  Why is it T'Pol should know the facts about Trip's being in love with her but Koss isn't given that consideration? 

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Because Koss isn't a series regular? LOL The story they're selling is Trip/T'Pol not T'Pol/Koss. So Koss is secondary to the Trip/T'Pol pairing. Plus, T'Les is T'Pol's mother and wants her daughter happy... and she's happy with Trip, not Koss.

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T'Les told Trip that T'Pol should have all the facts.  Yet Koss most likely has no idea that his wife is suffering from Parnar Syndrome and is married to a recovering Trellium addict.  Why is it T'Pol should know the facts about Trip's being in love with her but Koss isn't given that consideration? 

276985[/snapback]

 

Because Koss isn't a series regular? LOL The story they're selling is Trip/T'Pol not T'Pol/Koss. So Koss is secondary to the Trip/T'Pol pairing. Plus, T'Les is T'Pol's mother and wants her daughter happy... and she's happy with Trip, not Koss.

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This might interest you. Here is a small quote from an interview of Manny Coto regarding Trip/T'Pol:

 

We also have a very interesting conclusion to Trip and T'Pol's relationship planned, and we may actually do it this season – it's very radical, and it's not been done before on Star Trek. And that's all I will say about that.

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This might interest you. Here is a small quote from an interview of Manny Coto regarding Trip/T'Pol:

 

We also have a very interesting conclusion to Trip and T'Pol's relationship planned, and we may actually do it this season – it's very radical, and it's not been done before on Star Trek. And that's all I will say about that.

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Clan marriage. Gotta be.

 

:VBGal:

 

:nono:

 

Sorry, couldn't resist the chance to make a "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" reference.

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This might interest you. Here is a small quote from an interview of Manny Coto regarding Trip/T'Pol:

 

We also have a very interesting conclusion to Trip and T'Pol's relationship planned, and we may actually do it this season – it's very radical, and it's not been done before on Star Trek. And that's all I will say about that.

284494[/snapback]

 

Clan marriage. Gotta be.

 

:VBGal:

 

:nono:

 

Sorry, couldn't resist the chance to make a "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" reference.

285155[/snapback]

 

Not familiar with the reference - but it does sound like they'll be living in adultery or something.

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Not familiar with the reference - but it does sound like they'll be living in adultery or something.

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PLEASE NO! It may not have been done on Star Trek before, but it's been done plenty elsewhere. I was actually hoping after Home that this season might do a radical thing and actually say some nice things about arranged marriages.

 

[digression]

BTW, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a Hugo Award winning novel by Robert A. Heinlein (arguably the greatest SciFi writer of the twentieth century. Yes, including Asimov. He also wrote Starship Troopers, an absolutely brilliant book that had its title stolen for an "adaptation" that was ... better left unsaid.). Aint It Cool News had some early rumblings about a TMIAHM movie being written a few weeks ago. I hope it's true.

[/digression]

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I will only be interested if the conclusion to the relationship is the end of it for good.

 

Don't forget T'Pol has not been honest with Trip either - he doesn't know she's a junkie or what effect this communicable disease she carries may have on him. He deserves way better than her.

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I will only be interested if the conclusion to the relationship is the end of it for good.

 

Don't forget T'Pol has not been honest with Trip either - he doesn't know she's a junkie or what effect this communicable disease she carries may have on him. He deserves way better than her.

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Agreed 100% It'd be nice if he dumped her too, but I'm sure she'll suddenly decide he's not good enough for her anymore. :naughty:

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