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Valeris

Serpents Among the Ruins

Have you ever read The Lost Era: 2311: Serpents Among the Ruins?  

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  1. 1. Have you ever read The Lost Era: 2311: Serpents Among the Ruins?

    • yes
      6
    • no
      8


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Has anyone ::coughwelfconfedcough:: read Serpents Among the Ruins? It takes an extremely fascinating angle on the Tomed Incident of 2311. I cannot say anything more for those of you who have not read it, but I thought it might work to open some new discussion. This forum has gotten rather stale in last two months and Welfconfed and I were talking about how we need some new topics. If you have not read it, I strongly suggest it. It is stand-alone and an excellent one for Romulan lovers. Then come back to this thread! :lol:

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That depends on what you mean by "good role." He is a main character, yes, and has a "key" role. But by good... for example, I would have to say no because I disagree with the part he played in the plot, but I know that many would approve very much. These are just different viewpoints as to whether it is "good" or "bad." Does this help?

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I've very much wanted to, but haven't had the chance yet. :(

I had hoped that the Tomed Incident would be explained in an episode or movie by now. :(

The relationship between the UFP and RSE goes from, what appears to be in the "Undiscovered Country"(2293), a fairly friendly one, (the Romulan ambassador was allowed to join a meeting in the UFP President's office to discuss a possible military operation into Klingon space) to, thanks to the Tomed Incident, a five decade long period of isolation followed by a period of 'cold war'.

So, it's not an exaggeration to say that it is probably the most important moment in the history of Federation/Romulan relations since the Earth/Romulan war of the 22nd century.

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You raise an extremely good point. I wish it could be made into a movie too. The Enterprise B had what, eight or so minutes of on-screen time [in Generations] so it is not like it is unreasonable. Besides, then the Tomed incident would be explained in a [hopefully] clear and cannonical way.

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I've finally read Serpents Among the Ruins and I'm very glad I did.

 

Click For Spoiler

If this is a accurate depiction of the Tomed incident, then it is another example of Federation deceit.

If there was any justice, Capt. Kirk (his invasions of Romulan space in the 2260's), Capt. Harriman (Tomed), and Capt. Picard (his many violations of RSE territories) would all be either in a Romulan prison cell or executed for their crimes against the Romulan people.[

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I am glad you are glad you read it. So why does the UFP get away with everything and everyone called the Romulans the "bad guys"? I was outraged when I finished SATR and remembered how the galaxy at large thinks of the Tomed incident. Blame everything on us, why don't you!?

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A. No. That one should be obvious to even Federation members.

B. They always say that whatever they are doing is for the "good of the many." It is okay to make the RSE out to be this evil empire that destroys thousands of Federation citizens because of whatever (it has been a while since I read SATR) because in the long run, it is better for everyone than what would have happened. My questions here are, WHAT ABOUT THE GOOD OF THE ROMULAN PEOPLE??? Has the Federation, in its oh-so-noble enterprises (pun intended) ever done anything for the good of the Romulan people? No. They say it is for the good of the universe, or galaxy, or Alpha quadrant, but the Romulans are part of these too. Are they helped? No. As much as I hate to agree with a Klingon, when Azetbur pointed out how hypocritical the Federation was in STVI, I had to agree. I assume that we are thinking sort of along the same lines, welfconfed?

Edited by Valeris

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I couldn't agree more.

 

Click For Spoiler
The Federation did what it did to 'prevent a war', but if you had a situation were neither the Federation nor the Romulan empire could risk engaging in any war-like behavior towards the other because of the Klingons siding against the aggressor, then doesn't that maintain enough stablity to make a negotiated peace more likely than war.

In fact wouldn't the Federation plot create a greater risk of war than just maintaining the status quo?

However, if your goal was not peace, but to force the Klingons to commit to a military alliance and to isolate the Romulans, thus leaving the Federation in charge, then the Federation plot makes sense.

I am reminded of a quote from the book: Kamemor (refering to the Tomed incident and it's effects) "What we must do now is not dwell on the past, but focus on the future." And Vreenak responds: "And if it is a future based on a lie?

Edited by welfconfed

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They always say that whatever they are doing is for the "good of the many."  Has the Federation, in its oh-so-noble enterprises (pun intended) ever done anything for the good of the Romulan people? No. They say it is for the good of the universe, or galaxy, or Alpha quadrant, but the Romulans are part of these too. Are they helped? No. As much as I hate to agree with a Klingon, when Azetbur pointed out how hypocritical the Federation was in STVI, I had to agree.

 

Na, I haven't read the book. I haven't even read much Star Trek books so to quote my concusions with some additional fact or happening...all that I have are the episodes I've seen and the impression I gained. You know, the picture of something or somebody that starts to develop inside your head. It was wonderful till the moment you start to feel something's wrong somewhere out there.

 

A government, be it of Earth, a country or Federation made of many races and planet systems, is always having as primal goal to maintain and protect the interests of its own nation. Own people. In some cases this interest may require to protect another nation for example. To create alliances and fight for territory which you will not later integrate as part of your own. But still this is done because of insuring stability to the own nation, if the danger of spreading conflict may treaten it as well. I cannot understand the ideology that speaks for stiving for the good of all, or many, or the whole Universe and even beyond. To me this sounds as manipulation of those who are naive enough to believe their Federation is the protector of all for the sake of goodness. And no such thing is actually being done because UFP is no fool. It wouldn't exist if it was following its slogans to the last word. As all the rest, it minds its own interests and will or will not think about the good of RSE as long as there is benefit...and this is natural.

 

But what had always annoyed me, is masking the motives with something sounding entirely differently. That's why I prefer other races to it, Klingons and the Romulan Empire which doesn't suffer from this syndrome but acts the same way as spoken. I noticed there are few people among many who think the same way about this...Which is sad but it is at least nice to see somebody who does.

 

:b-day:

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Thank you. For a moment there I was worried. LOL I agree that every government must protect its own interests whenever possible- we Romulans do that too. But the difference is that we say we do what we do to protect the interests of the Romulan people. The Federation is full of hypocrites who say they are out for the good of the universe, but you are right in that they are out to protect themselves supremely, and others second. Why can they not just say that??

 

Welfconfed, as usual your arguement is insightful and I agree. This brings to mind the book I am currently reading, 1984. The present and future are based on a series of carefully constructed lies, so that the people are like sheep bending to the government's will. I am not saying that this is what is happening, or will happen, in the Federation, but nothing good can come of a future built on a lie. And there are people still alive who know the truth behind Tomed.

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I had not thought about the parallels between the Federation and Orwell's vision of the 'future' in 1984. It is quite true, and quite chilling to consider.

269531[/snapback]

 

Chilling? Um... that is rather an understatement... *shudders* I am glad I was able to bring up a(n?) unique parallel though. Fun!

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Why you were worried Valeris? :b-day: As for why they just don't tell the truth...I think this is a good and very important question, I have to think more on this. By now what comes to mind is that this policy is a way to govern things in UFP. All races have something to believe in and something to lead them...But not all people are that strong. In contrast to Romulans for example, who have the strength to openly follow that which they believe in and most of all not be ashamed by it. On the other hand...it is easy to make someone believe in "all-goodness", especially when that someone prefers someone else to think for them and give them the ready-made purpose instead of finding this purpose within.

 

I also agree that the parallel with 1984 is good. But still wouldn't say that Orwell's vision and UFP are the same. It is a horrible thing he describes and the Federation still has many honorable and sincere people who do not follow lies. But if a lie is something the whole idea is based on, then indeed there's a danger things to turn that way.

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Like I said, I am not expecting the Federation to turn out like 1984. I was making that point to illustrate how horrible a society based on lies is. But then, in 1984, it was almost all lies. In the Federation, there are only a few. I am not about to pretend like this is the only one, though no specific examples come to mind. But Tern, I agree with your thing that all should be strong enough to have an opinion, and stand up for and support it. The Federation not only lies in situations like this, but they claim to cherish the Prime Directive. How many episodes have we watched where it ended up getting broken anyway?

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How many episodes have we watched where it ended up getting broken anyway?

269721[/snapback]

 

Quite many. And after that they move on as if nothing happened.

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I agree that the Federation isn't to the point of being an interstellar equivalent to Orwell's 1984, but rather, because of the lies and manipulations, it has created a political climate were something almost as bad is possible.

 

I believe that the real reason for the UFP's attitude toward the Romulans is, like in 1984, they need to create an external threat to maintain the internal stability of their federation.

In fact during the over 200 years of federation history has there ever been a time when they didn't have a threat to focus on?

The Romulan war and the 'Romulan threat' helped to bring the federation together, then the Klingons were the threat until the 2290's, then the Tomed incident and it was the Romulans again.

After the Romulans entered into isolation it was the Cardassians and Tzenkethi wars.

Later the Borg and the Dominion.

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I never noticed that. Being a typical person, I always assumed that it is just because one needs to have enemies to have an interesting story. But now that you mention it, while the UFP was not exactly friendly with their neighbors, not that much fighting was actually done. A lot of the episodes focus on threats that suddenly appear, then disappear forever again, like a virus that makes everyone on a ship devolve or a very powerful alien who sets himself up as a god from ancient Earth mythology. The Dominion War was real yes, and the same with the Federation-Romulan War, but the rest of the supposed threats just came from skirmishes. But it is easier to unite "the good guys" against "the bad guys" lest you fall than to unite so we can all get along and be united. Further proof of the Federation's manipulation, thank you welfconfed.

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Putting Federation-bashing aside for a moment. (as much fun as it is. :flowers: )

 

How would you rank "Serpents among the Ruins" over all. Is it a worthy addition to Trek history? Did it do a good job of filling in the blanks of the Tomed incident?

 

(...and especially toward Valeris) Did it show all sides Federation, Klingon, and ROMULAN in a fair and believable way?

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Way to get back on topic. These things always tend to spiral off, do they not? But as for the book itself, yes, I do believe it was a worthy addition to Trek history. It explained the Tomed incident as well as any novel with a certain length can. I know that before I read this novel, I only knew [thought!] that the Tomed incident was a great clash in which the Romulans killed a bunch of Federation members. I had never been able to find out the specifics. So, yes it was extremely good for me at least.

 

As for how it portrayed the three species... again, that also has something to do with how long the publishers allowed the novel to be. I was talking with my Latin teacher a while ago, and mentioning something about in school always studying Rome with the Gauls as their enemies, but when I went to France, I found out what things were like from the point of view of the Gauls. (I was staying with a high school teacher :flowers: ). It is the same with books- they cannot completely show every perspective. But now that you mention it, we never really heard how the Romulan people felt about the whole incident. How did the Romulans feel as their ship was being invaded and taken for some Federation purpose that would doubtlessly not put them higher in the eyes of the galaxy?

 

You have given me something to think about today. Between this and Enterprise season four, I am not going to be able to concentrate at all in school today. :flowers: Oh well. What about you, though? You posed the question; what is your opinion? (As well as whoever else is reading this thread).

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I completely agree with your comments regarding the length of the novel.

I can't help but to wonder what David George could have done with the story if he didn't have any limitations on its length.

 

I loved the politics (both between the three powers and the internal conflicts of each) and if he had been given the chance to expand on the characters and cultures of each government, it could have been among the best (an wonderfully complex) stories in all of Trek.

 

It practically begs to be expanded into a trilogy or perhaps a spin-off series of novels featuring the Enterprise-B and Captain Demora Sulu. (or perhaps a new Trek movie?)

 

As it is the book is a fun read that leaves the reader wanting more. (one of the jobs of a good writer :biggrin: )

 

...and it doesn't hurt that he managed to cover the Tomed incident without portraying the Romulans as monsters. :laugh:

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Complexity, I think, is what makes Trek appeal to such a diverse group of people. Whatever genre you want, you have it. Serpents among the Ruins, despite its length, has action, moral dilemmas, politics, love... and that is one, comparatively short book alone. I immagine that if someone, whether the author of SATR or someone else, managed to expand this into a, like you said, trilogy or series, he or she would have quite a number of Trekkies, and especially Romulan lovers like us, who would read it. Hmm, perhaps a letter to the PTB? :biggrin:

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The truth is the author, David R. George III is a member here on the board (check out his score in the latest trivia contest :laugh: )

I mentioned this thread to him in a pm. I hope he will honor us with a few comments regarding his work. :biggrin:

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This is quite possibly one of the top ten best things that has happened in my life. Actually getting to talk with a Star Trek author who is published...! I have dreamed about that before, but that is it. And here I am, stuck on fanfiction.net with Star Trek stories! :rolleyes: Anyhow, thanks Welfconfed. It should be interesting to hear how the actual author wanted the book to come through.

Edited by Valeris

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I agree, it would be great to discuss the book with the author himself, someone who has actually added to the universe of Star Trek.

I hope he finds the time to post.

 

I am curious, do you believe that the negative attitude towards the Romulans of some of the creators and fans of Trek is changing?

I ask this because it would have been easy for Mr. George to cast the Romulans as murderous villains, but they are more victim than victimizer.

In "Nemesis" the Romulans ultimately act to save the Enterprise and Earth.

Edited by welfconfed

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Actually, I am not sure how negative the producer's attitude towards Romulans is. Despite the fact that in the first episode where we saw them, Balance of Terror, they were the aggressors, the "bad guys," at the end, it is a really profound moment when the Romulan commander says something like, "I regret that we meet this way. In a different reality, I could have called you 'friend.'" (I love the book Quotable Star Trek!) Still, I do hope that this means less Romulan-bashers. I really hate them. I wish that the producers would show less of the "evil, heartless Romulan who just wants to destory the UFP for no reason at all costs" and more of the Romulan who is fiercely honorable and loyal to his family and country.

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If attitudes do change, I hope some day we could have (if not a TV series) then at least a line of novels with an all Romulan cast.(similar to the I.K.S. Gorkon series that is set on a klingon ship)

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