Nazi Guys Plan - Save Edith Keeler?

[A l t e r E g o 9]

This thread is inspired by the following quote regarding TOS episode C.O.T.E.O.F.:

 

I'm in complete agreement witht eh praise given to this episode.  I just saw it a few days ago and I rank it very highly on my TOS scale.

 

I loved the twist that the timeline would be ruptured if Edith survived.  Usually when we think of fixing the past, we think of saving someone, and having to go through the opposite, having to let someone die, was genius.

 

The whole thing about how the timeline would be dirupted was very well thought out and practical too.  Sometimes I found some TOS event to be a little farfetched but this one was a possible outcome.

 

It also hit an emotional thing with me because I couldn't imagine a world unified (conquered really)  under Nazism.

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Speaking of possible outcomes what if Nazi Guy interfered with the events surrounding TOS episode City on the Edge of Forever and as a result Edith didn't die again; would that explain the Nazi presence on ENT?

 

I'm almost certain this is the direction we going with the ENT season 3/season 4 cliffhanger. He's (Nazi/Future? Guy) become involved in that "focal point in time" as Spock put it.

 

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see an episode simular to Trials and Tribulations where as Archer figures out he must make sure Edith dies and becomes the truck driver.

 

I'm probably outta my mind and completely wrong about this but it doesn't hurt to discuss possibilitys...

[ussacclaim 0]

:) Woo hoo, thanks for the cameo Alterego! Glad I inspired a post!! :)

 

Sounds possible, in fact, I'd watch that episode, but I watch every episode of Enterprise already. looks like we'll all just have to watch the next season of Enterprise to find out!

[DrWho42 13]

I would have to say Yes. Since she being alive would be an integral part for Nazism to conquer the world...

 

When I saw the Nazis on "Zero Hour" [ENT #76], I immediately thought: "City on the Edge of Forever"'s alternative future. :cool1:

Edited August 24, 2004 by drwho42

[Klingonmike 0]

I voted possible, but doubtful. Anything is possible but I really don't think they will go that way.

[Rivendells_king 0]

well I read a spolier that said that it the nazi's got into the US because of future tech brought by alien guy

[Klingonmike 0]

From what I've read in the next episode we find that the eastern half of the U.S. is already under Nazi control, so I will assume that with the help of Daniels maybe Archer will set the history straight.

[mj 7]

I voted possible, but doubtful. I can't quite visualize Archer running down Edith Keeler with a truck.....

[Star Trek Fan 0]

YES!!! They almost save her, but Archer runs her over!!! (As he did in COTEOF, if that happens) Then the Nazi guys try to kill Archer!!! I just love confusing plots/subplots/subsubplots...

[VaBeachGuy 12]

I voted possible but doubtful, the reason is because of the time frames, what we see in the clip at the end of Zero Hour is during WW II, so that puts it between 1939 and 1945. City On The Edge of Forever was set much earlier, something like 1929 to 1932, so it's possible that we're seeing the "after effects" of them saving Edith but that would mean that TPTB would have to go back to TOS's episode in much the same way that DS9 did with Tribbles and I don't really think TPTB will be willing to tamper with what so many fans view as the very best of the TOS era.

 

So it's possible, but I doubt they will.

[fredbroca 0]

I think that would be so cool. Now saying that I don't beleve that it will happen. If they were going in that direction we would have heard somthing about it by now and VBG is right I don't really think they would try to play with that episode.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

  Woo hoo, thanks for the cameo Alterego!  Glad I inspired a post!! 

Sounds possible, in fact, I'd watch that episode, but I watch every episode of Enterprise already.  looks like we'll all just have to watch the next season of Enterprise to find out!

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I watch them all too no matter what, getting nearer... :(

 

I would have to say Yes. Since she being alive would be an integral part for Nazism to conquer the world...

 

Yeah that's it exactly, everything points to Edit Keeler being alive somehow based on the events of City...

 

When I saw the Nazis on "Zero Hour" [ENT #76], I immediately thought: "City on the Edge of Forever"'s alternative future. :cool1:

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So did I! But, we were (mostly) all incorrectly convinced the Xindi weapon was the Doomsday machine from TOS episode of the same name.

 

well I read a spolier that said that it the nazi's got into the US because of future tech brought by alien guy

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From what I've read in the next episode we find that the eastern half of the U.S. is already under Nazi control, so I will assume that with the help of Daniels maybe Archer will set the history straight.

255319[/snapback]

 

Yeah that's probably it then. Shucks.

 

I voted possible, but doubtful. I can't quite visualize Archer running down Edith Keeler with a truck.....

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From the very first time I saw City and for every time since that scene makes me feel like the driver is intentionally trying to get her you know? It come's barreling up the street like it's after her... (I know the writers then could not foresee that scene being used in a future Trek spinoff show but it's still very creepy imo)

 

I voted possible but doubtful, the reason is because of the time frames, what we see in the clip at the end of Zero Hour is during WW II, so that puts it between 1939 and 1945. City On The Edge of Forever was set much earlier, something like 1929 to 1932, so it's possible that we're seeing the "after effects" of them saving Edith but that would mean that TPTB would have to go back to TOS's episode in much the same way that DS9 did with Tribbles and I don't really think TPTB will be willing to tamper with what so many fans view as the very best of the TOS era.

 

So it's possible, but I doubt they will.

255590[/snapback]

 

That's what I've been thinking since after I posted this, Archer would need to be earlier in the timeline not later; if she did survive somehow he's too late in time to be of any help there.

[VaBeachGuy 12]

  Woo hoo, thanks for the cameo Alterego!  Glad I inspired a post!! 

Sounds possible, in fact, I'd watch that episode, but I watch every episode of Enterprise already.  looks like we'll all just have to watch the next season of Enterprise to find out!

255292[/snapback]

 

I watch them all too no matter what, getting nearer... :(

 

I would have to say Yes. Since she being alive would be an integral part for Nazism to conquer the world...

 

Yeah that's it exactly, everything points to Edit Keeler being alive somehow based on the events of City...

 

When I saw the Nazis on "Zero Hour" [ENT #76], I immediately thought: "City on the Edge of Forever"'s alternative future. :cool1:

255295[/snapback]

 

So did I! But, we were (mostly) all incorrectly convinced the Xindi weapon was the Doomsday machine from TOS episode of the same name.

 

well I read a spolier that said that it the nazi's got into the US because of future tech brought by alien guy

255314[/snapback]

 

From what I've read in the next episode we find that the eastern half of the U.S. is already under Nazi control, so I will assume that with the help of Daniels maybe Archer will set the history straight.

255319[/snapback]

 

Yeah that's probably it then. Shucks.

 

I voted possible, but doubtful. I can't quite visualize Archer running down Edith Keeler with a truck.....

255365[/snapback]

 

From the very first time I saw City and for every time since that scene makes me feel like the driver is intentionally trying to get her you know? It come's barreling up the street like it's after her... (I know the writers then could not foresee that scene being used in a future Trek spinoff show but it's still very creepy imo)

 

I voted possible but doubtful, the reason is because of the time frames, what we see in the clip at the end of Zero Hour is during WW II, so that puts it between 1939 and 1945. City On The Edge of Forever was set much earlier, something like 1929 to 1932, so it's possible that we're seeing the "after effects" of them saving Edith but that would mean that TPTB would have to go back to TOS's episode in much the same way that DS9 did with Tribbles and I don't really think TPTB will be willing to tamper with what so many fans view as the very best of the TOS era.

 

So it's possible, but I doubt they will.

255590[/snapback]

 

That's what I've been thinking since after I posted this, Archer would need to be earlier in the timeline not later; if she did survive somehow he's too late in time to be of any help there.

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It's possible that they could use City to connect the stories, afterall this will be a 2 part episode and we could see Daniels sending Trip back to 1929 to run Edith down (Archer is in WW II so I picked Trip).

 

I think the writers could write a good story using City and I think it would be a good episode if they did (Maybe Daniels could even bring an older Kirk into the picture and make the Older Kirk run Edith down while the Younger Kirk holds Dr. McCoy back).

 

Of course none of those things are going to happen or we'd have heard something by now, but I think they could do all sorts of things with the story line.

[BakulaBabe 2]

I voted possible, but doubtful. I can't quite visualize Archer running down Edith Keeler with a truck.....

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This may sound weird comming from a fan of Archer, but I can easily picture him running her down, if it has to be done. :msn-oh: After all, he threw an alien into an airlock, and threatened to kill Sim...

 

BTW, I voted "yes".

Edited August 26, 2004 by BakulaBabe

[prometheus 0]

But then arent we sort of treading on the teritory of Year of Hell, where the temporal ship kept rtying to change history....

[A l t e r E g o 9]

But then arent we sort of treading on the teritory of Year of Hell, where the temporal ship kept rtying to change history....

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You mean as in rehashing an old idea? If so then that's nothing new; many episodes of every series beyond TOS are rehashes of tales first told on TOS.

 

You gotta consider to that there is damn good reason the Dept of Temporal Incursions (or whatever it's called) exist; the danger of enemy's attempting to "change history" is real other wise why bother having it right?

 

For me that is where ENT shines, most hate time travel stories claiming all they gotta do is push the reset button but if it's all theoretically possible and realistic then what's the squawk? Imo it's about time the consequences of time travel was thoroughly examined by Trek.

[Jack_Bauer 1]

It is intriguing, but doubtful.

 

I think Storm Front is going to be more like those Justice League eps The Savage Time. The premise is that the immortal Vandal Savage sends a lap top back in time to himself during WWII. This lap top has information that he uses to make himself the new fuhrer and begin conquering the planet. The lap top helped the Nazis to develop jet engines which they used to attempt an invasion of the United States. The Justice League returns from a mission to find Earth under Nazi rule (the league was protected Green Lantern's ring). The league then travels back in time to thwart Savage. It was a very cool episode.

[A l t e r E g o 9]

 

 

Good point Jack; Trek has also rehashed stories from other scifi series as well.

 

That sounds like an amazing story to, some of the Nazi technology did seem ahead of it's time, excellent premise.

 

*remembers the episode of South Park about Cartmans Trapper Keeper* :)

[mj 7]

It is intriguing, but doubtful.

 

I think Storm Front is going to be more like those Justice League eps The Savage Time. The premise is that the immortal Vandal Savage sends a lap top back in time to himself during WWII. This lap top has information that he uses to make himself the new fuhrer and begin conquering the planet. The lap top helped the Nazis to develop jet engines which they used to attempt an invasion of the United States. The Justice League returns from a mission to find Earth under Nazi rule (the league was protected Green Lantern's ring). The league then travels back in time to thwart Savage. It was a very cool episode.

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I actually saw that!

 

I think that is a more reasonable scenario that having Trip or Archer committ murder by running Edith Keeler down with a truck. I do not think they could do it. Maybe pay someone else to do it.....But I would resent them if they did that.

 

But I think it is more plausible to have a story line like the Justice league story....

[WEAREBORG4102 0]

Nope. I don't think so. b&B may try continuity but they almost never look that specifically at the episodes to base new ones on. The only exception is Trials and tribbleations.

[TC1 0]

I dont discount anything when it comes to Star Trek and timelines. The history is full of examples.

Undecided over here, but I would like to see that come to pass.

[headborg 1]

Wow! that's all great thinking...and yes..it would all fit! they could do a "Tribbles" type ep where Archer's behind the wheel of the car that runs her down.....and digitally intergrate the footage/scenes of Kirk and Bones standing on the curb..and Archer's Hit and Run...!

[pittykitty 0]

This should become really interesting to say the least, especially when it comes to the space time continuum.(sp?)

[Klingonmike 0]

Did anyone see the commercial for Storm Front? It looked good. They show a map of the U.S. and and most of the east coast was occupied by the Nazi's. I guess that means there will be nothing about Edith Keeler in this episode.

[DrWho42 13]

Did anyone see the commercial for Storm Front? It looked good. They show a map of the U.S. and and most of the east coast was occupied by the Nazi's. I guess that means there will be nothing about Edith Keeler in this episode.

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Agh, I missed it...

Bit bothered by this (this as in missing the commercial), since I am a fan of alternative history... But I could see this commercial another time.

 

Now that I think about it, there are other ways for the Nazi's to gain power over the nations besides making sure Edith Keeler is still alive...

Edited September 6, 2004 by drwho42

[Admiral Kirk 1]

I voted possible, but doubtful. Anything is possible but I really don't think they will go that way.

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I agree.

[Airies 0]

:wallbash: Time paradoxs give me a headache! Everytime someone goes into the past, they change history. It can't be helped no matter how small the change is. So even if Edith were to be saved another history would have been changed and who knows maybe Japan would have won the war. Or the world was destroyed. Or who knows what else. Ahhhhhhhhhhh time paradoxs :wacko:

[Matt 0]

It's an interesting thought, we'll have to wait and see.

 

Oh and guys, please don't post spoilers in general posts, I like to find out when I see it.

[KayTroi 0]

I voted it's possible but doubtful.

I'll just wait and see what happens when the new season airs. :lol:

 

Is it true that Season Four airs two weeks from today?

 

Yes or No

[A l t e r E g o 9]

I voted it's possible but doubtful.

I'll just wait and see what happens when the new season airs.  :lol: 

 

Is it true that Season Four airs two weeks from today?

 

Yes or No

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Yes.

[CaptQuick 0]

:wallbash:  Time paradoxs give me a headache! Everytime someone goes into the past, they change history. It can't be helped no matter how small the change is.

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Not necessarily. Y'see, imho, there are basically two ways of looking at history.

1. There is one, only one, unbreakable chain of time from beginning to end.

2. There are untold numbers of chains and every time anyone makes a decision another timeline (chain) is created. Though ones with the same major decisions the same are very similar.

 

If #1 is true. Everything that happens was meant to happen. A history where Kirk didn't fall in love with Edith Keeler never existed.

 

If #2 is true. It's impossibly complicated. The temporal cold war enemies didn't like the chain they were in so they went to change it, which created another chain which the Enterprise and Archer landed. They will inevitably save the day and create a better chain in the process (along with thousands of other chains of different decisions that we don't see.).

 

I suppose I should talk about the third e travel too. It's a modification of the first (which I prefer, as it gives me considerably more piece of mind.)

 

3. It is "Life is one chain that can be broken and redirected, eradicating everything that came after in favor of a new future." In that case, if anybody ever changes anything in history, there will be no reversing it because the ones who know what the future is "supposed" to be will be instantly eradicated because they are part of that future. This is a rather impractical way of doing things, though, because the time traveler would immediately eliminate himself and everyone in his world simply by stepping on a piece of grass in the past (a change).

I recall some mention of a Scifi story using this concept. The protagonist went back in time but found that he was incapable of changing anything. The humans could not see him, the grass was harder and sharper than spikes, and the rain fell like bullets (which, while a more interesting view, is slightly inaccurate since, the raindrops and grass would actually not effect the protagonist at all. If the concept is held to, the protagonist would have been a noncorporeal ghost).

 

I don't say that these are the only logical (BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!) views of time travel, but they are the only ones I've found. Star Trek (in it's many forms), has touched on #1 (Examples include: Star Trek: First Contact, The City on the Edge of Forever) and #2 (Examples: Yesterday's Enterprise (TNG), Parallels(TNG)). I'm not sure about #3.