Sign in to follow this  
welfconfed

An Empire Divided?

Recommended Posts

The Remans, a relatively recent addition to the Star Trek universe, seen so far only in the movie Star Trek: Nemesis, have become a controversial part of the Romulan back story.

I say controversial because in Nemesis we see the Remans not only as members of Romulan society, but as a heretofore unknown part of that society, as slaves.

Now I realize that the idea of the Romulans as 'brutal slave masters' fits quite nicely with the preconceptions that alot of people have of the 'deceitful, villianous' Romulans, but I believe that the notion of the Remans living in slavery is inaccurate.

Considering that the only source on the Remans is the movie Nemesis, I'll try to keep speculation to a minimum, and focus primarily on the film.

 

(for simplicity, I'll present my examples in chronological order.)

 

In the opening scene, on Romulus, we see a debate in the senate chamber about Shinzon's proposal:

 

Romulan Commander: Senators, consider the opportunities for the Empire. At last the destinies of the planets Romulus and Remus will be united. (Note: Are the "destinies" of the two planets currently separate, a possible reference to Remus as semi-independent within the Empire?)Shinzon of Remus is offering us a chance to make ourselves stronger than ever before. It would be madness to reject it. I beg you not to let prejudice or politics interfere with this alliance. (Note: An alliance? isn't that usually an agreement between separate and independent parties? How can slaves be in a position to choose to ally with the masters?)By joining Shinzon's forces with ours, not even the Federation will be able to stand in our way.

Praetor Hiron: That's enough! The decision has been made. The military does not dictate policy on Romulus. The Senate has considered Shinzon's proposal and rejected it. He and his followers will be met with all deliberate force and sent back to that black rock they came from! (note: He and he's followers, not 'the Remans', could Shinzon represent only a small minority with in Reman society? A terrorist group?)

(Shortly afterwards, the Senate is assassinated.)

 

Later during the briefing on board the Enterprise-E:

 

Data: As you can see one side of Remus always faces the sun. Due to the extreme temperatures on that half of their world, the Remans live on the dark side of the Planet. (Note: They live in the darkness by choice, not because they are forced to by the the Romulans) Almost nothing is known of the Reman homeworld. Although intelligence scans have proven the existence of dilthium mining and heavy weapon construction. (Note: It is never mention if these industries are Romulan in origin, or if they are indigenous, Reman control enterprises.) The Remans themselves are considered an undesirable caste in the hierarchy of the Empire. (Note: An undesirable caste, possibly due to their violent ways, but not slaves.)

Riker: But they also have a reputation for being formidable warriors. (Note:How can the Remans be both warriors of high reputation and chattel slaves at the same time?)During the Dominion war Reman troops were used in the most violent encounters. (Note: In other words, in the most vital areas of combat the Remans were trusted to 'hold the line', but why would a slave be trusted to do that?)

Picard: Canon fodder. (Note: Or the back bone of the Empire's infantry?)

Geordi: Yeah, but how did a Reman get to be Praetor? (Note:It would be unlikely that someone from a lower caste would lead the Empire, but impossible for a slave.)I don't get it.

Riker: We have to assume he had Romulan collaborators.(Note: Why would they assume that if it was someone from a slave race, why would the Romulans tolerate that? If the Remans were slaves wouldn't it be more likely that it was some type of 'servile insurrection'?)

Picard: Coup d'etat

Riker: Praetor's power has always been the Romulan Fleet. They must of been behind Shinzon for him to overthrough the senate. (Note:Why would the Romulan military assassinate their own government to put a member of a slave race in control?)

Picard: What have we learned about Shinzon?

Data: Star Fleet Intelligence was only able to provide a partial account of his military record. We can infer that he is relatively young and a capable commander.(Note: At this point they believe Shinzon is Reman, but don't seem surprised that a Reman would command troops in the field, rather unlikely for a slave.)

He fought twelve major engagements in the war, all successful. Beyond that we know nothing.

 

When later Shinzon speaks with Commander Suran.

 

Com.Suran: We supported you Shinzon, when you assassinated the senate. (Note: Why would a Romulan Commander support a bunch of slaves murdering the entire Romulan government and taking control of the Empire?)You told us the timing was perfect for an attack on the Federation. (Note: Why would they listen to slaves in matters of 'national security'?)I don't understand why you delay.

Shinzon: You don't have to understand.

Com. Suran: And bringing the Enterprise here, what possible purpose can that serve?

Shinzon: I have a purpose.

Com. Suran: Then perhaps you will enlighten us.

Shinzon: Silence Romulan! You really must learn patience Commander. Spend eighteen hours every day under the lash of a Romulan guard and you'll soon learn patience. (Note: The first real reference to a 'slave like situation involving the Remans, but he speaks of his treatment, not all Remans and it is interesting that he refers to Romulan guards and not overseers or slave masters, could he and his followers have been in some type of penal institution on Remus?) Now go.

 

When Shinzon spoke to Picard about his existence on Remus.

 

(Note: Shinzon lied about every thing else. He said he wanted peace, but plotted war, he said he wanted to learn about humanity, but planned to destroy Earth. Please keep this in mind when you read his words.)

Shinzon: They sent me there to die. How could a mere human survive the dilithium mines of Remus? (Note: The mines, not the entire planet, could the mines be used as penal labor camps?)Not that it mattered, as I was no longer part of their plans against the Federation. (Note: In other words a political liability, could that have classified him as a 'political prisoner' or was he a violent, defective clone that needed to be contained?) In those terrible depths lived only the damned. (Note: A possible reference to the prison population, most of which would be 'lifers'?)Together with the Reman slaves (Note: His view of the prisoners?), I was condemned to an existence of unceasing labor and starvation under the brutal heel of the Romulan guards. I was only a child when they took me, and I didn't see the sun or the stars again for nearly ten years. (Note: But didn't he later in the same conversation mention looking at the stars and dreaming?) The only thing the Romulans hated more than the Remans was me. But one man took pity on me, the man that became my viceroy. He protected me from the cruelty of the guards (Note: If they were both slaves, why would the Romulans not simply kill the Reman if he got in their way while attacking the human?), he taught me how to survive, and in that dark place, where there was nothing of myself, I found my Reman brothers. They showed me the only true kindness I have ever known.

Picard: You're doing this to free the Remans?(Note: The Remans that Shinzon leads, perhaps the ex-'prisoners'?)

Shinzon:That is the single thought behind everything I have done. (Note:How does ending all life on Earth help free the Remans?) From building the Simitar at a secret base,(Note:How did slaves get a secret base with the resources to build a monster like the Simitar?) to assembling my army. (Note: Ex-prisoners, possibly like him, former members of the military?) Finally coming to Romulus in force. (Note: With a planetary scale weapon of mass destruction) I knew they would never give us our freedom, we would have to take it. (Note:When did the 'plotting with Romulans to destroy Earth' idea pop up?)

Picard: How many Romulans died for your freedom?

Shinzon: Too many, but finally the Empire is realizing there is a better way, and that way is peace. (Note: Who is he referring to when he says the Empire, he killed the entire government, and conspired with a small group of officers to stage a coup and launch a war. So who's peace, not the Romulans and not the Federation.)

 

I would like to conclude with a quote from Commander Donatra.

 

Com.Donatra: Are you truly prepared to have your hands drenched in blood? He's(Shinzon) not planning to defeat Earth, he's planning it's annihilation, and his sins will mark us and our children for generations.

(Something to consider when refering to evil Romulans and the oppressed Remans.)

Edited by welfconfed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of your questions can imo be answered with one word: change. Make that two words: change and Spock.

 

The events of NEM are a result of change enacted by Spock's efforts.

 

My dad felt as you do about NEM, that the whole Reman taking over idea is silly and impossible but (I think) I finally got him to see the light of how the characters and events of the Trek saga must grow and evolve towards order or it becomes a ridiculous comic book story.

 

Many Klingon fans got bent outta shape when peace with them became a reality and now the same for Romulans begins to loom on the horizon. I embrace it because to me that is what Trek is all about; change for the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agrre there is change, but there will be the same hatred of the Federation among some.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say, welfconfed, I really admire your ability to go through something, whatever it is, and pick out the impotant things and make intelligent comments on them. :( Your ideas are likely to be the proper sequence of events and the ideas between them.

 

Alterego, I do not understand what you mean. How could Spock's actions lead to Nemesis when Shinzon has been plotting underground for ten years, and most likely does not even know who Spock is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alterego, I do not understand what you mean. How could Spock's actions lead to Nemesis when Shinzon has been plotting underground for ten years, and most likely does not even know who Spock is?

 

I mean Spocks actions lead to the Romulans getting sloppy with the handling of the Remans, they became distracted by the Reunification movement thus opening the back door for the Remans to do their thing. Many of those Rommies supporting Shinzon were probably for Reunification and saw taking out the Senate as a vital step towards that goal so they co-operated with Shinzon, perhaps to the degree of supplying him all the resources they could. That would help explain the Scimitar too. Make sense? Its possible taking out the Senate was an unexpected part of the plan but the conspirers found out too late, they were in over their heads but it was too late to back out. Shinzon was brilliant in the execution of his plans until he met Picard! *cue TNG theme*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Valeris- Thank you for your words of encouragement, I highly value your opinion . :hug:

 

Alterego- while I agree that part of the problem was the Romulans 'got sloppy', I don't believe it was because of the reunification movement.

I think it had more to do with the events that took place eight years before in the Omarian Nebula.

The massacre of a huge number of Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order operatives, not to mention the loss of ships and resources, practically crippled both intelligence organizations.

For the Cardassians, who used the Order to oppress their civilian population, this meant revolution from within, but for the Romulans, who used theirs to protect the citizens of the Empire, it meant vulnerability to external threats. (I consider the Remans an external threat, because it appears that they enjoyed a certain degree of self-rule within the Empire and were not part of the politics of Romulus.)

The void left in Romulan intelligence could also explain the Romulan's non-aggression pact with the Dominion. The Romulans would have needed time to rebuild their intelligence organization and to replace the ships that were lost, but with the Federation's scheme to drag the Empire into the war, there wasn't enough time to do either to the extent that the Romulans would have preferred.

The strain that the war put a manpower and material allowed the Remans to become a major force in the Romulan military and a major supplier of dilthium for the Empire. The new position of power that the Remans enjoyed, coupled with a weakened Tal Shiar, made an attempt to take control inevitable.

As to any envolvement of the reunificationist in all of this mess, I consider it highly unlikely.

The reunificationist are working, not only for unity between the planets Romulus and Vulcan, but for Romulan adoption of the Vulcan philosophy of emotional control.

A group of pacifists, who hide in caves and read ancient books, aren't likely to cause the agents of the Tal Shiar many sleepless nights, or to conspire with a group of genocidal madmen and rogue Officers to conquer the Empire and the Federation.

And Shinzon, well you could say he was his own worse enemy...literally. :hug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I completely forgot about the factor of the Dominion War a few years earlier! I think that is partly because I have not seen that many episodes from the later DS9 seasons, but whatever.

 

This is a good time to bring in the saying, "Give them an inch and they will take a mile." So it seemed with the Remans. They have some control in the military, and they end up taking over a lot of the military and even building the Simitar. They have self rule and suddenly they are trying to rule the entire Romulan Star Empire.

 

The Remans to be, to a certain extent, the "working class" of Romulus. They are not slaves, but they do mine the dilithium, they are in the military, etc. In almost every history, the working class feels they are not given enough credit and want more. (I did really badly in history this last quarter, so if this is all wrong, tell me). This usually ends up in a revolution from the working class, sometimes violent, sometimes not.

 

The Remans chose the violent approach. They decided to kill a major ruling body and put their own in place. The Romulans did what I did, using that same school example. I was very focused on math, because I was having a hard time this quarter, so I started to neglect my other subjects, including history. I did well in math, but horrible in history, even though history was easier. The Dominion and the UFP are the RSE's "math." The Remans are their "history." The Romulans knew it was easy enough to keep the Remans in a lower class, so they paid more attention to the more difficult problems. Then the Remans snuck up and surprised them, like my history grade.

Edited by Valeris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Valeris: I agree with your view of "give them an inch and they will take a mile", it might explain way the Remans were considered an "undesirable caste" to begin with; bitter experience, over their long shared history.

 

While I think you are right about 'class struggle' playing a part in the Reman/Romulan conflict, we also have to keep in mind the vast differences of culture and race.

I believe the best example is the current relationship between the middle east and the western world, two very different cultures, that don't really understand or like each other, but are tied together by need. The west needs middle eastern oil to maintain its way of life, and the middle east needs western cash and technology.

(just as the Romulans needed the Reman troops and dilthium, and the Remans needed Romulan technology)

If we were threatened by an alien force, even given the current threat of middle eastern terrorist, taking out Osama bin laden wouldn't be a really high priority for the western powers. It is quite likely we would use arab troops and provide weapons technology that, after the 'alien conflict' was over, would leave many arab states and terrorist groups in a position to pose a grave threat to the west.

 

(but I do have to say, I liked your 'federation and dominion as math and the Remans as history' example :( )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL, my grade is still one of the foremost things on my mind, sorry. :(

 

You make an interesting point. We are all human, but first world, second world, and third world. (Ha, we claim to have outgrown castes). This is a really good real world example. You seem to make a lot of those. I need to watch the news more often. :tear:

 

Your example makes sense. (As do just about any of your ideas). The idea of the Remans being like the Middle East seems to fit. Somehow, I do not think everyone would react by fighting the hostile aliens. Some, like me, might hijack a shuttle and beg them for a ride to Romulus or some place. :( J/K

 

So, now that we have sort of determined the possible cause, what about the effect? (Argh, my history teacher is obsessed with cause and effect! Why do I have to keep thinking about school!?) What exactly is to become of the Remans now? Is that particular group all and so the Romulans will not worry? Will they take more precautions against the Remans because they do not trust any of them anymore? We another group be encourged by Shinzon and attack? Paramount really needs to make an elventh movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be concerned about your grades is nothing to be sorry for, just don't let it ruin your vacation. :) Remember, a calm and centered mind in a well rested body, often makes the difference between victory and defeat. (especially against ruthless adversaries such as math and history classes. :P ) So take your opportunity to rest and refresh, before reentering the fray. :o

 

As for watching the news more often, I would recommend doing so, but in moderation. That stuff can be scary. :( (I o.d. on the stuff, from time to time. :) )

 

I like your 'shuttle' idea, but with my luck, I'd make it to the alien ship and find out they are a bunch of Klingons. :P (doubt they would have any flights available to Romulus.)

 

I believe you are wise to look at the causal relationships in history and in current events. (In the 'real world' and in the universe of Star Trek.) If you look at an event without considering the underlying causes and possible effects of that event, then you are seeing only a small part of the story. (a bit like trying to understand the bible, or shakespeare, by reading only one line.)

 

The Empire's response to the Remans will largely be based on who will fill the void left on Romulus. The senate is dead, the military has been dishonored by the actions of the Romulan conspirators, so the question is who is left to lead and maintain security.

The civilian population had to be in utter shock and absolutely terrified by the coup. They had to ask themselves where was the Tal Shiar, how could officers of the imperial fleet conspire against the empire, and why was Shinzon's group allowed to become such a danger in the first place?

I think we may be seeing the beginnings of a major change in the Empire, one that could lead to a form of government more like a true democratic republic. (a Romulan Star Republic perhaps?)

..but in the immediate aftermath of the coup, I think that the Remans will be treated quite harshly.

However, I can't really blame the Romulans for over-reacting, if the Remans lived on the other side of the moon, and had killed the entire government of Earth, how much peaceful understanding would humans show them. Could we ever again look up at the night-time sky and see the moon as anything other than a threat to be eliminated?

Edited by welfconfed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am relaxing! I did not get up until one, when DS9 started, yesterday just because even though I was awake, I did not feel like facing my family, which is never exactly relaxing, considering that Mom and my sister, Christi, always think exactly the opposite of me. :o

 

It would probably take me a while to start watching the news anyway, as the only things I watch regularly are Star Trek and the Addams Family.

 

It is not like I would be alone in the shuttle. I would have to take TSonofvulcan, because even if he does hate Romulans, he is still my best friend, and then Rachel, and then a bunch of people off here and some of the other sites I am a member of, and then some of my teacher, if nothing else, they can serve as a distraction... LOL J/K

 

Whenever I go on this thread, I am brought back to my history class, because we are studying the Romulan situation just like we would some situation in history class. Did I mention that my teacher is obsessed with cause and effect? :dude: At least that class did one thing... it taught me how to help a friend try to predict the future of an empire most humans do not believe exist! LOL Miss Godsey would be so proud... :dude:

 

Really though, I do not quite like the idea of a RSR. Recently, I became quite interesting in the empirical style of government, and I found that I quite like it. I am not by any means saying that the RSE is perfect, but I do think that changing it to the RSR would help too much. I never really liked the idea of republics... I do know that if I was the Empress of Romulus at this time (and I wish I was; my screen names are almost always either Valeris or Romulan Empress!), I would retaliate very severely. I would also try to do things to pacify the people. Of course, these things would probably also tie in with the idea of a bit of a violent retort. Your moon example is brilliant, and I think that anyone on the moon would be lucky that not everyone on Earth is as quick to anger as I am. :vbg:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When your family (or anyone else) starts to get on your nerves :laugh: , try to consider it an opportunity to test your logic and self restraint :hug: (though at times it isn't easy :hug: )

 

You have raised an interesting point. What about the Romulan Empress? (assuming of course that Q was referring to an empress in the 'modern era' of the 2370s.) Even if the title has no real power behind it, she may be able to hold the Empire together long enough to insure the creation of a new senate, by being a symbol that the people can rally around.

 

I agree with you, the Romulan Empire should remain just that, an Empire. (though that does not mean that it isn't a 'democratic empire', at least for the Romulans themselves, they are probably, in that respect, nearer to the British empire than the Roman)

 

Way do I have the feeling that if you were in charge of the 'Reman/moon situation', we would have a new asteroid belt were the moon use to be. :lol: :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not easy! :hug: I am actually sitting here in my room, crying, with the door locked, escaping to STF. They are driving me insane! If Christi had just shut up instead of singing that stupid commercial jingle... it was funny the first two million times... but I had to retaliate. :)

 

I do know that the titles of Emperor and Empress do exist in the RSE, because I have read books where they are there in person and not just talked about. (Vulcan's Heart, Voyager: Dark Matters) You are right though in that they are just symbols and they do not have much real power. However, it would be nice if they could get on screen in an eleventh movie. And it almost does seem as if they already are a "democratic empire," as we hear about the Senate all the time, but we almost never hear about the Emperor and Empress. It is rather like England (and I should know, as another thing TSonofvulcan is obsessed with is England! :blink: ).

 

Actually, if I was in charge, there would be a large could of space dust hovering above Earth. I think my family gets off easy sometimes. :hug::laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least you have a safe haven here :laugh:

 

Not only is the Empress mentioned in the novels, but Q mentions her as a possible mate in "The Q and the Grey".

The only major concern is containing the Reman problem, as it is quite possible that other ships like the Scimitar were constructed, and Shinzon's 'secret base' is still out there some where.

It would be quite a mess if the Empire had to face both a Reman war and an internal collapse at the same time. A mess that the klingons, Federation, and a host of others would love to exploit.

Edited by welfconfed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love all my friends here. :look: I just had a really bad day. Thanks.

 

I have not seen The Q and the Grey. Which series is it in?

 

You speak of a terrifying possibility. For as long as Star Trek has gone on, and back to a few millenia ago, the Romulan Empire has stood strong. With it facing such an uncertain future, the entire course of Star Trek, and history, could very well be extremely different. Which direction the Romulans go could affect the fate of the entire galaxy. If the Romulan Star Empire (dare I say it?) falls, this leaves a very large area of space for other races to claim, inviting even possible wars. The Romulans could defeat this challenge, making Trek go on as it always has. There could be some entirely new outcome that we do not know, making the entire course of Trek change again.

 

Despite that 88, I think Miss Godsey was right to drill cause and effect into our heads every waking moment. I must remember to thank her. :look:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The Q and the Grey" is from Voyager's third season.

 

If the Romulan Empire falls due to instability and a Reman conflict, it would disrupt the balance of power through out the Alpha and Beta quadrants.

Once the RSE slips into chaos, both the Federation and the Klingons will get involved and that could lead to conflict between the UFP, who would hope to help 'democratize' the Romulans, and the KIE, who would see the chance to eliminate the 'Romulan threat' and to gain territory.

An interstellar war as bad, if not worse, than the Dominion war would erupt, a war that would exhaust all sides and open up the whole region to conquest by opportunistic aggressors like the Gorn, Breen, and Sheliak, to name but a few.

Thats one of the reasons why the Reman problem is so important, not only to the Romulan Empire, but the entire region as well.

 

...and don't forget to give Miss Godsey the thanks of the Romulan Empire as well.(who knows, you might convince her to start using Star Trek as a teaching tool :) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really wish Voyager came on around here. Maybe in Kansas...

 

The Romulans must keep their empire. It is for their own good, and the good of the entire galaxy (with the wormhole and all). Even (though I hate to say it) if they have to ask other powers for help controlling threats, they must stay a major power. Perhaps the UFP; they would be willing to help and the Romulans would be able to regain their power and still shake off the Federation afterwards.

 

I would not get bad grades if Trek was taught, that is for sure! Mr. Carter actually once used an example from Star Wars during chapel; maybe Trek is next! Unfortunately, I have no way to get a hold of Miss Godsey. Perhaps Mr. Jackson would know...

 

You and I always seem to dominate the Romulan threads. Interesting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to add even more canonical evidence disproving the idea of Reman slavery.

 

In the 4th season episodes of Enterprise "United" and "Aenar", not only are Remans on Romulus serving in the Romulan military, but they are serving as the armed personal guard of a Romulan Senator.

The DVD deleted scenes of those episodes even show the Remans taking Romulans, including Admiral Valdore, under arrest.

 

This would seem to indicate that the Remans have not been slaves for at least over two centuries before Star Trek: Nemesis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as the Remans future is concerned, following the events of ''Nemesis''-assuming one accepts that they remained slaves , I find it hard, if not impossible to imagine them 'being content' with the staus quo remaining. Shinzon's coup in itself was a success, and this opened up the possibility, unlike any time in canon known history, for them to have some chance at a measure of independence. They ALMOST tasted in full liberty...but that freedom, by their lights, would have resulted in the deaths of millions, or billions on Earth, and why would they have stopped there? Having come that far, they surely would fight, if at least politically, with all they had for a partnership in the Empire. The Federation might have some compassion for them, albeit knowing all to well what this species would have done. They might think, well, this could also-and here is a purely selfish, and underrstandable motivation-be a way to 'quell' to whatever extent the likelihood of another uprising....in a time directly after the coup, when Romulus was in flux politically. I picture some sort of 'Interim Council' at least until new elections were held. With people like Donatra, and those others who sided with the Remans at first, maybe they would yet have a measure of understanding for the Remans'plight, in a government that would surely not be ever the same in the aftermath of all those dramatic events. Of course, the Tal Shiar has to be lurking, strategizing, shifting agendas, doing whatever was necessary to 'protect the future of the Romulan people....and that to them would probably include a firm hand holding the Remans down, if they could....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Most of your questions can imo be answered with one word: change. Make that two words: change and Spock.

 

The events of NEM are a result of change enacted by Spock's efforts.

 

My dad felt as you do about NEM, that the whole Reman taking over idea is silly and impossible but (I think) I finally got him to see the light of how the characters and events of the Trek saga must grow and evolve towards order or it becomes a ridiculous comic book story.

 

Many Klingon fans got bent outta shape when peace with them became a reality and now the same for Romulans begins to loom on the horizon. I embrace it because to me that is what Trek is all about; change for the better.

P.S. I don't know how it all will look in the new movie as far as Romulus and the UFP, but I share my cohort here's contention that things inevitably will change, as it did with the Klingons, as it will with Cardassia. Star Trek has ever been about finding common ground-even with old enemies. Spock started something that will likely never be snuffed out, not completely, whatever the future-but as a fan, and a writer-fan, I envision a growing bond between the Federation and the Empire-still an Empire, as a cohort said above, but yet, like the Klingons, finding commonalities, and seeing the wisdom of going forward in mutual, PEACEFUL discovery, and growth...whatever the growing pains that might come, or the foes who stubbornly cling to their agendas of self-concern, greed, and lust for power...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I've said in previous posts, I don't believe that the Remans were slaves or that they were justified in their attempted mass murder.

 

I do agree that the Empire and the Federation will probably become allies. If the UFP could make nice with the Klingons, then I'm sure that they can ally with the much more peaceful and civilized Romulans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All we know about the post-Nemesis Romulan Empire is that the two sides were interested in talking. That does not mean they will become allies or even even normalize relations, just that there is potential for it.

 

I think it is likely that the Remans will try another uprising within the Empire or at least take militaristic measures to keep what they have. In fact I even think the Federation would support such a move. Sure the Federation doesn't trust the Remans, but it doesn't fully trust the Romulans either and would welcome the chance for additional political upheavel within the Empire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All we know about the post-Nemesis Romulan Empire is that the two sides were interested in talking. That does not mean they will become allies or even even normalize relations, just that there is potential for it.

 

I think it is likely that the Remans will try another uprising within the Empire or at least take militaristic measures to keep what they have. In fact I even think the Federation would support such a move. Sure the Federation doesn't trust the Remans, but it doesn't fully trust the Romulans either and would welcome the chance for additional political upheavel within the Empire.

 

In regards to the timetable of improved relations, I agree that it won't happen anytime soon, but I think that the Enterprise and the Valdore fighting side by side to save Earth and free the Empire from the Remans will go along way in changing minds on both sides of the neutral zone. (Heck even Worf was impressed that the Romulans fought with honor.)

 

However, I seriously doubt that the UFP will support a Reman state. They not only murdered the Romulan Senate, they attempted to destroy Earth with a Thalaron weapon. If anything, the Federation will probably help the Romulans locate and eliminate the Remans weapons and facilities.

 

If your really interested in the strategic situation post Nemesis, you should check out my threat assessment in the thread "Facing the Nemesis: The Future of the Empire" and give your views on it. (But be warned, it is vey much from the Romulan POV)

Edited by welfconfed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In regards to the timetable of improved relations, I agree that it won't happen anytime soon, but I think that the Enterprise and the Valdore fighting side by side to save Earth and free the Empire from the Remans will go along way in changing minds on both sides of the neutral zone. (Heck even Worf was impressed that the Romulans fought with honor.)

 

Who says the Valdore was fighting to save Earth? I think it is more likely they wanted to remove Shinzon from power as he had grown to be mentally (and physically) unstable.

 

During the Cold War US and USSR interests were often alligned. It didn't necessarily make us allies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The captain of the Valdore, Commander Donatra, was only able to get approval to attack Shinzon after she confronted her superior officer.

 

What was the argument that she used, that if the Romulan Empire allowed Earth to be destroyed then the blood would be on their hands. They had to act to defend billions of innocent lives. It didn't matter to them that they were the enemy.

 

If they had let Earth die, then they could have blamed Shinzon and the Remans. Starfleet would have helped hunt down the Remans and in the long run the Romulan Star Empire would have been in a position of strength they haven't been in since the late 23rd century.

 

At a moment when the Federation was about to be crippled and it was in the Romulans best interest to just sit there and let the Remans do the dirty work (and take the blame) The Romulan MILITARY acted to preserve life and peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Donatra did not confront her superior officer, at least not on screen. She discussed the situation with another ship commander. Her senior officer, by the way, was Tal'Aura who was the one who assassinated the Senate and became Praetor after Shinzon.

 

"Drenched in blood" could have been referring to the war that surely would have broken out had Shinzon's plan be taken to completion, not necessarily the destruction of Earth per se.

 

I think it is far more likely that Shinzon would not have stoped at destroying Earth and crippling the Federation. Maybe the Empire could have conquered the Federation - weakened because of the Dominion War and the destruction of Earth by the Scimitar- or maybe not, but then what?

 

Do you really think Shinzon, had he lived, would have been content to see the Remans as equal partners after centuries of slavery and darkness? No, he would have enslaved the Romulans just as the Romulans had enslaved the Remans. Some forward-thinking Romulans decided to remove him from power before that happened.

 

It is safe to conclude that the Federation doesn't trust the Remans and doesn't yet trust the Romulans. Wouldn't pitting two potential enemies against each other and destabilizing the Empire be in the Federation's interests?

Edited by Lt. Van Roy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tal'Aura didn't become Praetor. (At least not until the post-Nemesis novels) Shinzon was still Praetor and commander in chief of the Empire.

Com. Suran didn't outrank Donatra, but judging from their apparent ages, its safe to assume that Suran was senior Commander and leading member of the conspiracy on the scene.

(We have seen Romulan commanders perform duties that in Starfleet would be performed by Admirals, so its possible that within the Commander rank, seniority would determine a Commander in charge of one vessel or several.)

 

Com.Suran helped Shinzon and believed that the RSE would defeat the Federation. So when Donatra tells him, "Are you truly prepared to have your hands drenched in blood? He's not planning to defeat Earth, he's planning it's annihilation, and his sins will mark us and our children for generations.", she isn't trying to convince him of the potential defeat of Romulus, he has already killed his own govt. to get a chance to defeat the Federation, but that victory through holocaust is no victory. They were soldiers, not mass murders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would argue that Shinzon ceased to be Praetor at the time the Romulan fleet turned against him. He still had effective command of the Scimitar, and possibly the rest of the Remans, but that was it. As Data said, the Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet. When that power base was lost, so was his control over the Empire. To argue that he was still Praetor while under fire from Romulan guns is ridiculous. If the Romulan government still considered him to be Praetor then why weren't the crew and commander of the Romulan ships charged with treason? As Donatra said, "We consider this a matter of internal security for the Empire. We regret you've become involved." or words to that effect.

 

With the loss of the Scimitar and Shinzon, would the Remans have enough to stand up to the rest of the Empire militarily? Probably not. The Remans lost their most powerful weapon. The Romulans lost two ships (that could still be repaired) and a room full of politicians. You might be right that their motivation to coming to the Enterprise's aid was to prevent the dishonorable destruction of Earth, but you can also bet that keeping the Romulan Empire for the Romulans entered into their calculation.

 

The Romulan government - what was left of it after the coup anyway - knew Shinzon had this weapon of mass destruction. The fleet commanders wanted him to use it. In fact they were frustrated that he wasn't using it fast enough. Do you really think they would be surprised to learn that Shinzon was going after Earth? They knew all along that was the plan. They also knew that his weapon was genocidal. WMDs aren't exactly surgical strike weapons. They knew that any use of the weapon would mean the obliteration of a planet. That was fine, as long as they trusted Shinzon. When they stoped trusting him they had to eliminate him because they just might be next on his list.

Edited by Lt. Van Roy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this