Star Trek Fan 0 Posted May 28, 2004 In my opinion Harry, it is canon unless I see some proof.. THE U.F.P. GRAND SEAL: In the episode “Shadows of P’Jem” [ENT] the United Federation of Planets grand seal can be seen flying on a flag on Earth in the opening sequence. How is this possible a decade before the Federation was ever established? Also the version of the grand seal shown in that episode did not come into service until the 24th century, prior to that time different more simplified versions were used (TOS and Movies). DAEDALUS CLASS: Where are they??? AKIRA CLASS: The NX-01 ship used in Enterprise is an Akira Class vessel, like it or not. Ship classes are based upon the ship’s configuration or basic shape. That NX-01, which we first saw in September of 2001, has exactly the same configuration as that of the Akira Class U.S.S. Thunderchild NCC-63549 first seen as a new design in “Star Trek First Contact” 1996 set 200 years later than ENT. The Nacelles are different and in a slightly different position agreed, just as they were on the Constitution Class original U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (TOS) from those on the refitted Constitution Class NCC-1701-A. There’s no denying the configuration is the same, therefore NX-01 is Akira Class. TOO MANY SHIPS: There have only ever been 6 Starships named Enterprise, this was pointed out by Lucksley in the episode “Trials and tribbilations” [DS9], not federation ships, not ships in general and not shuttles, starships. Also the dedication plaque on the Enterprise-D includes the words “Fifth Starships to bear the name” just as the plaque on the Enterprise-E includes the words “Sixth Starship to bear the name”. Starship, not Federation or anything like that! The NX-01 is a Starship isn’t it? These ships include: 1 NCC-1701 (Original and refitted) 2 NCC-1701-A (Movies) 3 NCC-1701-B (“Star Trek Generations”) 4 NCC-1701-C (“Yesterday’s Enterprise” [TNG]) 5 NCC-1701-D (“Star Trek the Next Generation”) 6 NCC-1701-E (“Star Trek First Contact”, “Star Trek Insurrection” and “Star Trek Nemesis”) This NX-01 fits in NO WHERE! SUBSPACE RADIO: Subspace communication had not been invented in 2168 (“A Piece of the Action” [TOS]), that being the case how did Archer get it in 2151? Not possible! TRANSPORTERS: Transporters didn’t exist before 2168 (“Masterpiece Society” [TNG]) so how did NX-01 get them? PHSAERS: “Phase modulated energy weapons” (“Silent Enemy” [ENT]) or PHASERS did not exist prior to 2200 (“A Matter of Time” [TNG] written by Rick Berman) so NX-01 couldn’t have them, could they? STARFLEET: Starfleet was not established until 2161, as evidenced by the Starfleet Academy Insignia which states “Starfleet Academy Ex Astris Scientia (Meaning, from the stars knowledge) San Francisco MMCLXI” (2161) KLINGONS: Klingons were not encountered until 2218, this encounter took place in deep space and caused a misunderstanding leading to decades of war (“First Contact” [TNG]). AND THE FOREHEADS!!! Why would this mistake occur if the Klingons had been contacted before that time? Answer: It would not happen, therefore the events in “Broken Bow” [ENT] DO NOT fit in to Star Trek history at all! FERENGI: The Ferengi were NEVER encountered before the 24th century and were never seen by humans prior to the events shown in “The Last Outpost” [TNG]. If they had contacted humans in any way before that time as they supposedly did in “Acquisition” [ENT] then knowing them as we now do it is a CERTAINTY that they would have at least tried to open trade negotiations with us. Just as they did with the very dangerous Dominion (“Rules of Acquisition” [DS9]). Also why would Archer and his inept crew allow a group of potentially dangerous criminals to go on their merry way? It was an EXCUSE to stop them from learning more about the Ferengi, an excuse that doesn’t work and shows a lazy and unprofessional writing style VISUAL COMMUNICATION: Visual communication (and probably view screens for that matter) was not available to Earth Starships during the Romulan War of 2156-2160 (“Balance of Terror” [TOS]) so how did Archer get such a thing before that time? PHOTON TORPEDOS: NX-01 now has photonic (or photon) torpedos how is this possible in 2152 when Spock once pointed out that “Only primitive atomic weapons” were available during the Romulan conflict of 2156-2160? PLASMA WEAPONS: In the episode “Broken Bow” [ENT] the Klingon is shot by a farmer wielding a plasma rifle. However according to Janeway there were no regenerative shields and no plasma weapons in Kirks time (the 23rd century) (“Flashback” [VGR]) so how could there be plasma rifles in the 22nd century? LYING VULCANS: Vulcans are unable to lie (“The Enterprise Incident” [TOS] and “Data’s Day”[TNG]) yet in “Enterprise” they’re lying deceitful pigs! VULCANS WITH FEELINGS: We all know that Vulcans show no feelings yet in “Shadows of P’Jem” [ENT] the Vulcans show anger at the loss of their outpost and the Vulcan Captain was obviously angry at being misled by Archer THAT DOESN’FIT THEIR PROFILE! Worse still in the episode “The Seventh” [ENT] T’Pol’s feelings of guilt almost killed her, Now that’s going too far! VULCAN SECRETS: If Kirk and his crew knew nothing of “Pon Farr” (which was the case) as it was a closely guarded secret, then how is it that everyone knows about it in “Enterprise”? THE PRIME DIRECTIVE: Granted, the prime directive doesn’t actually exist in “Enterprise” however they are continually concerned about the impact they might have on other less advanced cultures, that being the case the events in “A Piece of the Action” [TOS] could never have occurred. BUT THEY DID OCCUR! LACKING HUMAN TECHNOLOGY: The humans in “Enterprise” are some of the least technologically advanced people around, well behind the Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and even the Ferengi. How are meant to believe that these people will become the leaders of a great federation of planets within ten years? That’s not only implausable it’s LUICROUS! All of the facts I’ve given here are ATTRIBUTABLE, LOGICAL AND IRREFUTABLE, it is literally impossible to put forward any workable argument against them without making excuses or fabrications. Face facts, you may enjoy Enterprise but it does not fit in to Star Trek history in any way, therefore it IS NOT a Star Trek series and has no right to use the name! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tina 0 Posted May 28, 2004 AGREED WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE ::HUGGLES:: Harry i owe you one! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike 5 Posted May 28, 2004 Wow Harry..That's a lot to read..So, they're rewriting the rules slightly in your opinion..Nothing wrong with that..I still haven't seen anything that suggests to me it isn't canon..I'm not going to address each one of your points individually..I still maintain that it is a good entertaining Star Trek series..And the writers have used creative liscense to make the shows entertaining..If that turns off the more strict hard core Trek fans..Oh well..It's still no reason to try to get it cancelled..it's a wonderful show in my opinion.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nemesis 0 Posted May 28, 2004 Thats all you can come up with? Geeze they've done worse in all the series Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Trek Fan 0 Posted May 28, 2004 Thats all you can come up with? Geeze they've done worse in all the series Well, can I have examples??? Huh, huh, huh??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuraksSoul 0 Posted May 28, 2004 I don't like Enterprise and i signed the petition..I like the idea of Enterprise ..i like Porthos and Scott bakula..but it dissapointed me..Where all trek got better in the second and third seasons(or in the movies in the TOS case) Enterprise has stilll remained weak..I wish they either make it better or put it outs of its misery Perhaps you didn't watch seasons 2 and 3, because they were progressively better than season 1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted May 28, 2004 Here's a site of TNG goofs... http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GoofsGuide/showid-137 AND here's a whole site of DS9 goofs... http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GoofsGuide/showid-166 The web is crawling with sites like those. Perfect continuity between the other series exists only in your mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Trek Fan 0 Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) At one point, a player in Quark's yells out "Dabo!" but closed-captioning reads "Double!" Worf claims that he has seen one of the ambassadors steal two of his poker chips, while in fact Worf has seen him steal three. Oh, come on... how does that affect the timeline??? Edited May 28, 2004 by Commodore -Harry Kim- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A l t e r E g o 9 Posted May 28, 2004 You didn't read into the site far enough. Anyway I don't care if ENT screws things up 9 ways from Sunday, I like it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho42 13 Posted May 28, 2004 It can fit in with the rest of Trek... I like ENT, and it's concept and such... Looking very forward to the 4th season. The Adventures of STF.net Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
please delete 0 Posted May 28, 2004 although it contracdicts the timeline in ways, it could be a parallel universe. or what not. You do, have to give it a chance. Let it go, the episodes are getting better as the plot and characters develope, let the enterprise fans have their fun, don't take it away from them. If they like it, then that's fine, it's not like they are forcing you to watch it. Watch the star trek re-runs of your favorite series. That's always fun. Just a suggestion. The Timetraveling Paradox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted May 28, 2004 Tim, the leader of saveenterprise.com said in the chat: forget Cannon and the timeline.. So, us Trekkies who follow the timeline hate Enterprise!!! I am not saying you shouldn't like Enterprise, but it DOES contradict the timeline, even the FOUNDER AND LEADER OF SAVEENTERPRISE.COM AGREES!!! Click for Spoiler: Note to mod: Everyone is entitled an opinion... please don't delete this... Give examples of the timeline being contradicted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Trek Fan 0 Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) Tim, the leader of saveenterprise.com said in the chat: forget Cannon and the timeline.. So, us Trekkies who follow the timeline hate Enterprise!!! I am not saying you shouldn't like Enterprise, but it DOES contradict the timeline, even the FOUNDER AND LEADER OF SAVEENTERPRISE.COM AGREES!!! Click for Spoiler: Note to mod: Everyone is entitled an opinion... please don't delete this... Give examples of the timeline being contradicted. I already have, but here it is again: THE U.F.P. GRAND SEAL: In the episode “Shadows of P’Jem” [ENT] the United Federation of Planets grand seal can be seen flying on a flag on Earth in the opening sequence. How is this possible a decade before the Federation was ever established? Also the version of the grand seal shown in that episode did not come into service until the 24th century, prior to that time different more simplified versions were used (TOS and Movies). DAEDALUS CLASS: Where are they??? AKIRA CLASS: The NX-01 ship used in Enterprise is an Akira Class vessel, like it or not. Ship classes are based upon the ship’s configuration or basic shape. That NX-01, which we first saw in September of 2001, has exactly the same configuration as that of the Akira Class U.S.S. Thunderchild NCC-63549 first seen as a new design in “Star Trek First Contact” 1996 set 200 years later than ENT. The Nacelles are different and in a slightly different position agreed, just as they were on the Constitution Class original U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (TOS) from those on the refitted Constitution Class NCC-1701-A. There’s no denying the configuration is the same, therefore NX-01 is Akira Class. TOO MANY SHIPS: There have only ever been 6 Starships named Enterprise, this was pointed out by Lucksley in the episode “Trials and tribbilations” [DS9], not federation ships, not ships in general and not shuttles, starships. Also the dedication plaque on the Enterprise-D includes the words “Fifth Starships to bear the name” just as the plaque on the Enterprise-E includes the words “Sixth Starship to bear the name”. Starship, not Federation or anything like that! The NX-01 is a Starship isn’t it? These ships include: 1 NCC-1701 (Original and refitted) 2 NCC-1701-A (Movies) 3 NCC-1701-B (“Star Trek Generations”) 4 NCC-1701-C (“Yesterday’s Enterprise” [TNG]) 5 NCC-1701-D (“Star Trek the Next Generation”) 6 NCC-1701-E (“Star Trek First Contact”, “Star Trek Insurrection” and “Star Trek Nemesis”) This NX-01 fits in NO WHERE! SUBSPACE RADIO: Subspace communication had not been invented in 2168 (“A Piece of the Action” [TOS]), that being the case how did Archer get it in 2151? Not possible! TRANSPORTERS: Transporters didn’t exist before 2168 (“Masterpiece Society” [TNG]) so how did NX-01 get them? PHSAERS: “Phase modulated energy weapons” (“Silent Enemy” [ENT]) or PHASERS did not exist prior to 2200 (“A Matter of Time” [TNG] written by Rick Berman) so NX-01 couldn’t have them, could they? STARFLEET: Starfleet was not established until 2161, as evidenced by the Starfleet Academy Insignia which states “Starfleet Academy Ex Astris Scientia (Meaning, from the stars knowledge) San Francisco MMCLXI” (2161) KLINGONS: Klingons were not encountered until 2218, this encounter took place in deep space and caused a misunderstanding leading to decades of war (“First Contact” [TNG]). AND THE FOREHEADS!!! Why would this mistake occur if the Klingons had been contacted before that time? Answer: It would not happen, therefore the events in “Broken Bow” [ENT] DO NOT fit in to Star Trek history at all! FERENGI: The Ferengi were NEVER encountered before the 24th century and were never seen by humans prior to the events shown in “The Last Outpost” [TNG]. If they had contacted humans in any way before that time as they supposedly did in “Acquisition” [ENT] then knowing them as we now do it is a CERTAINTY that they would have at least tried to open trade negotiations with us. Just as they did with the very dangerous Dominion (“Rules of Acquisition” [DS9]). Also why would Archer and his inept crew allow a group of potentially dangerous criminals to go on their merry way? It was an EXCUSE to stop them from learning more about the Ferengi, an excuse that doesn’t work and shows a lazy and unprofessional writing style VISUAL COMMUNICATION: Visual communication (and probably view screens for that matter) was not available to Earth Starships during the Romulan War of 2156-2160 (“Balance of Terror” [TOS]) so how did Archer get such a thing before that time? PHOTON TORPEDOS: NX-01 now has photonic (or photon) torpedos how is this possible in 2152 when Spock once pointed out that “Only primitive atomic weapons” were available during the Romulan conflict of 2156-2160? PLASMA WEAPONS: In the episode “Broken Bow” [ENT] the Klingon is shot by a farmer wielding a plasma rifle. However according to Janeway there were no regenerative shields and no plasma weapons in Kirks time (the 23rd century) (“Flashback” [VGR]) so how could there be plasma rifles in the 22nd century? LYING VULCANS: Vulcans are unable to lie (“The Enterprise Incident” [TOS] and “Data’s Day”[TNG]) yet in “Enterprise” they’re lying deceitful pigs! VULCANS WITH FEELINGS: We all know that Vulcans show no feelings yet in “Shadows of P’Jem” [ENT] the Vulcans show anger at the loss of their outpost and the Vulcan Captain was obviously angry at being misled by Archer THAT DOESN’FIT THEIR PROFILE! Worse still in the episode “The Seventh” [ENT] T’Pol’s feelings of guilt almost killed her, Now that’s going too far! VULCAN SECRETS: If Kirk and his crew knew nothing of “Pon Farr” (which was the case) as it was a closely guarded secret, then how is it that everyone knows about it in “Enterprise”? THE PRIME DIRECTIVE: Granted, the prime directive doesn’t actually exist in “Enterprise” however they are continually concerned about the impact they might have on other less advanced cultures, that being the case the events in “A Piece of the Action” [TOS] could never have occurred. BUT THEY DID OCCUR! LACKING HUMAN TECHNOLOGY: The humans in “Enterprise” are some of the least technologically advanced people around, well behind the Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and even the Ferengi. How are meant to believe that these people will become the leaders of a great federation of planets within ten years? That’s not only implausable it’s LUICROUS! All of the facts I’ve given here are ATTRIBUTABLE, LOGICAL AND IRREFUTABLE, it is literally impossible to put forward any workable argument against them without making excuses or fabrications. Face facts, you may enjoy Enterprise but it does not fit in to Star Trek history in any way, therefore it IS NOT a Star Trek series and has no right to use the name! Edited May 28, 2004 by Commodore -Harry Kim- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gabri 0 Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) I'll admit that I've hardly seen any Enterprise since the first season ended, but even if it were not strictly canon, I don't see how that would diminish its entertainment value. I'm more active in the world of Star Wars fan fiction than in any other fandoms, and I adore AU (alternate universe) fics there. They're often more fun than the canon stories. *shrugs* Just my own opinion. EDIT: Just saw this: Face facts, you may enjoy Enterprise but it does not fit in to Star Trek history in any way, therefore it IS NOT a Star Trek series and has no right to use the name! I'm going to have to disagree with that one, Harry. Once again using SW fanfic as an example because I am more familiar with it, an AU fic that totally contradicts the canon story can be and IS still Star Wars. I'm currently reading a fantastic trilogy called The Skywalker Prophecy, in which Anakin doesn't turn to the dark side, he and Padmé have two other children besides Luke and Leia, Mara Jade is Anakin's Jedi apprentice - and guess what? It's still Star Wars. Same characters, same feel, only twisted a little bit. And quite frankly, Star Trek has had continuity errors before Enterprise and it will have them once Enterprise is long gone, too. That doesn't make Enterprise any less worthy of the name. Edited May 28, 2004 by Gabri Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg1110 0 Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) Great points harry!! ill admit that u have pointed out some grave errors in the enterprise series. ill also admit that i have been losing interest lately in enterprise (i dont quite know why). In fact i enjoy watching tng and ds9 on spike when i cant see anything (we only get fuzz lol)....I can hear it quite well (about the quality of the radio). Im not harsh enough to say the series needs cancelled, just a lot of reworking. Im quite hopefull that they can make it more interesting next season. Edited May 28, 2004 by blitzkrieg1110 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho42 13 Posted May 28, 2004 There's an U.S.S. Archer in Star Trek: Nemesis. The Adventures of STF.net Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Trek Fan 0 Posted May 28, 2004 There's an U.S.S. Archer in Star Trek: Nemesis.The Adventures of STF.net There is a U.S.S. Crazy Horse in TNG... U.S.S. Archer... so??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rash 0 Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) This is an exciting time for Enterprise. They just wrapped up a wonderful 3rd season, had a killer of a season finale and were renewed for a 4th season..Life is good in the world of Star Trek..In my opinion Harry, it is canon unless I see some proof or Rick Berman says other wise..I'm not that picky about the timeline being messed up as long as the episodes are entertaining..The other Trek series aren't perfect either..They are good fiction and that's it..Everybody is entitled to their opinion..But I still feel the same way as I did during the first season of Enterprise..If you don't like it, don't watch it..Why get it cancelled and ruin it for the rest of us who enjoy it ?? Wow, I couldn't agree with you more. Hey guys, come on. We can't talk about flaws in any Star Trek series. If we did, we couldn't even enjoy it since Warp technology isn't really proved to be a possibility. And even Stephen Hawkins himself (the one who participated in a ST episode) mentioned that if space travel was possible that way, humans couldn't simply travel like the passengers of Enterprise. So let these flaws be the reason for anti-Trek people. Episodes don't have to be perfect so forget the timeline. Like lots of people have said, as long as the eps are entertaining it is OK. And Enty season 3 was entertaining. I'm one of these people that would be really sad without at least one Star Trek series airing (talking about new episodes). Star Trek is the only decent piece of space sci-fi that is worth seeing nowadays. Not even movies are that successfull anymore. And I can't live without seeing the space, without wondering about it. Enty gives me that. [EDIT] Sorry but, what does Canon mean? Edited May 28, 2004 by Rash Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BakulaBabe 2 Posted May 28, 2004 Anyway I don't care if ENT screws things up 9 ways from Sunday, I like it. I'm in total agreement - even though it looks like they really mucked it up this time! It's OK, though, I'm sure they'll work it out eventually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Trek Fan 0 Posted May 28, 2004 Many people are saying "I don't care if ENT screws things up..." However, people who actually like to follow the timeline don't like Ent... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gabri 0 Posted May 28, 2004 Many people are saying "I don't care if ENT screws things up..." However, people who actually like to follow the timeline don't like Ent... Which basically means that there are dissenting schools of thought within a fandom. This happens all the time, Harry. There's room for all sorts of opinions among ST fans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted May 28, 2004 THE U.F.P. GRAND SEAL: In the episode ¡§Shadows of P¡¦Jem¡¨ [ENT] the United Federation of Planets grand seal can be seen flying on a flag on Earth in the opening sequence. How is this possible a decade before the Federation was ever established? I will go back to that episode to verify that, but that's not a contradiction in the timeline even if it's there. That would be called a blooper, which is a mistake. Now if someone were to point that flag out to someone and say "That's the flag of the Federation" then that's a different story. AKIRA CLASS: The NX-01 ship used in Enterprise is an Akira Class vessel, like it or not. Again, this is not a timeline contradiction. If you go back in history and look ad designs for ships, cars, buildings or anything you will see that they were based on designs from the past. The Akira Class ship was based on the design of the NX-01, so how does that contradict the timeline? TOO MANY SHIPS: There have only ever been 6 Starships named Enterprise „X 1 NCC-1701 (Original and refitted) „X 2 NCC-1701-A (Movies) „X 3 NCC-1701-B (¡§Star Trek Generations¡¨) „X 4 NCC-1701-C (¡§Yesterday¡¦s Enterprise¡¨ [TNG]) „X 5 NCC-1701-D (¡§Star Trek the Next Generation¡¨) „X 6 NCC-1701-E (¡§Star Trek First Contact¡¨, ¡§Star Trek Insurrection¡¨ and ¡§Star Trek Nemesis¡¨) This NX-01 fits in NO WHERE! The NX means experimental and is not an "Official" ship, also if you take note of your own post you will count six NCC 1701 ships. Not 7. There has only been 6 USS Enterprise's and as of right now, only 1 "Enterprise". There is a difference. Again, no contradiction. FERENGI Show me in Enterprise where the crew of the Enterprise meets any Ferengi, now tell me how you know they are Ferengi. Does Archer know they are Ferengi? Does Starfleet know they are Ferengi? Who says they are Ferengi? At that point in the timeline we don't know what they are or who they are. VISUAL COMMUNICATION: SUBSPACE RADIO: TRANSPORTERS: PHSAERS: NX-01... EXPERIMENTAL remember? What ships fight in the Romulan war? Do they have visual communication? As for the other things, do you think that someone said "Poof" and those things came into being? They had to be tested and perfected... NX-01.... get the idea here? KLINGONS: Klingons were not encountered until 2218, this encounter took place in deep space and caused a misunderstanding leading to decades of war (¡§First Contact¡¨ [TNG]). AND THE FOREHEADS!!! Why would this mistake occur if the Klingons had been contacted before that time?Answer: It would not happen, therefore the events in ¡§Broken Bow¡¨ [ENT] DO NOT fit in to Star Trek history at all! The history books during the time of TNG were incorrect. We have now learned that first contact with the Klingon Empire was actually earlier. (In other words I'll give you that one), but the forehead's are a TNG thing. Do you hate TNG for completely altering Klingons? If you do then you also have to hate DS9 and Voyager for continuing it. Basically I could go through the whole post and refute all of what you say, 95% of your objections have nothing to do with "Time Line" at all they are just what I said they are, your objections. If I really wanted to and had nothing else to do I could go through every Star Trek series and find a whole list of "contradictions". Gene Roddenberry acknowledged this, all of TPTB acknowledged this. Get over it. Oh, that flag in Shadows of P'Jem... It's not the Federation flag. It's clearly different. Look at the flag from the episode, it's got a complete circle as it's center seal. The Federation Seal isn't a complete circle. Here's the Federation flag: Here's the flag from Shadows of P'Jem: Click for Spoiler: What it boils down to is that if you don't like Enterprise, don't watch it. My personal view is that Enterprise is far better then a past incarnation of Star Trek, which is Voyager. Face facts, you may enjoy Enterprise but it does not fit in to Star Trek history in any way, therefore it IS NOT a Star Trek series and has no right to use the name! The "Fact" is that the show's name is "Star Trek Enterprise" so the "fact is that it IS a Star Trek show. Paramount owns the franchise and if they choose to put the name "Star Trek" on the Smurfs then they have EVERY right to. They own it. But going by this model, you AREN'T Harry Kim. DOes that mean you have "no right" to use that name? Click for Spoiler: And you are 100% entitled to your opinion, but to me you come off as a bitter person that only wants to attack the show. That's why several of your Petition signatures were deleted. Remember these? ANTI-ENTERPRISE!!! Gender: male ENTERPRISE IS RUINING TREK!!! THE WHOLE TIMELINE IS SCREWED UP!!! WAY TO GO b&b!!! WE DEMAND A TREK HISTORICALLY ACURATE SHOW IN THE LATE 24TH CENTURY OR AFTER!!! B&B ruined trek!!! Gender: male Location: NOT IN B&B's WORLD ENTERPRISE IS RUINING TREK!!! THE WHOLE TIMELINE IS SCREWED UP!!! WAY TO GO b&b!!! WE DEMAND A TREK HISTORICALLY ACURATE SHOW IN THE LATE 24TH CENTURY OR AFTER!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Jean-Luc Picard 1 Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) In my opinion Harry, it is canon unless I see some proof.. THE U.F.P. GRAND SEAL: In the episode ¡§Shadows of P¡¦Jem¡¨ [ENT] the United Federation of Planets grand seal can be seen flying on a flag on Earth in the opening sequence. How is this possible a decade before the Federation was ever established? Also the version of the grand seal shown in that episode did not come into service until the 24th century, prior to that time different more simplified versions were used (TOS and Movies). I checked the episode. That's not the UFP symbol, but rather the Starfleet symbol, similar to the one NASA has. DAEDALUS CLASS: Where are they??? They don't exist yet. AKIRA CLASS: The NX-01 ship used in Enterprise is an Akira Class vessel, like it or not. Here's an Akira-class ship: Click for Spoiler: Here's a NX-class ship: Click for Spoiler: Clearly, they are not the same design. Ship classes are based upon the ship¡¦s configuration or basic shape. By that standard then, every single ship in the U.S. Navy are all one design, becuase they all have the basic "ship" look. :) That NX-01, which we first saw in September of 2001, has exactly the same configuration as that of the Akira Class U.S.S. Thunderchild NCC-63549 first seen as a new design in ¡§Star Trek First Contact¡¨ 1996 set 200 years later than ENT. See the above pictures. Aside from a "saucer", a catacomb area, and two warp engines mounted on warp pylons, the ships have no similarities. The Nacelles are different and in a slightly different position agreed, just as they were on the Constitution Class original U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (TOS) from those on the refitted Constitution Class NCC-1701-A. Of coars the nacelles are different. They're a cross between the Pheonix and TOS Enterprise. As for the warp pylons being in a slighly different position? Both ship classes have entirely different pylon configurations. There¡¦s no denying the configuration is the same, therefore NX-01 is Akira Class. There's no denying you're completely wrong, based on the pictures I provided earlier, therefor the NX-class and Akira-class are clearly two different designs. TOO MANY SHIPS: There have only ever been 6 Starships named Enterprise, this was pointed out by Lucksley in the episode ¡§Trials and tribbilations¡¨ [DS9], not federation ships, not ships in general and not shuttles, starships. He was referring to Enterprises carring the registry number of NCC-1701. Seeing as they're both familiar with Enterprise lineage, there was no need for him to be that specific. Also the dedication plaque on the Enterprise-D includes the words ¡§Fifth Starships to bear the name¡¨ just as the plaque on the Enterprise-E includes the words ¡§Sixth Starship to bear the name¡¨. Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet are different organizations, but both run by Humans. The plaque refers to Federation starships named Enterprise, not every Starfleet ship. Starship, not Federation or anything like that! The NX-01 is a Starship isn¡¦t it? Yes, but it came before the Federation. The British had "ships" named Enterprise. Do we count them when listing American ships named Enterprise, hmm? These ships include:„X 1 NCC-1701 (Original and refitted) „X 2 NCC-1701-A (Movies) „X 3 NCC-1701-B (¡§Star Trek Generations¡¨) „X 4 NCC-1701-C (¡§Yesterday¡¦s Enterprise¡¨ [TNG]) „X 5 NCC-1701-D (¡§Star Trek the Next Generation¡¨) „X 6 NCC-1701-E (¡§Star Trek First Contact¡¨, ¡§Star Trek Insurrection¡¨ and ¡§Star Trek Nemesis¡¨) This NX-01 fits in NO WHERE! That's right, the NX-01 was not a Federation starship. SUBSPACE RADIO: Subspace communication had not been invented in 2168 (¡§A Piece of the Action¡¨ [TOS]), that being the case how did Archer get it in 2151? Not possible! Um... It's called creative license. Times change. It would be unbelievable, given current advances in technology, that Starfleet would not have subspace radio by the mid 22nd century. Why let the number of year in one line of dialog dictate what they can and can't do with a TV show? That's not thinkint outside the box. TRANSPORTERS: Transporters didn¡¦t exist before 2168 (¡§Masterpiece Society¡¨ [TNG]) so how did NX-01 get them? Again, creative license. Does the number "2168" matter that much? PHSAERS: ¡§Phase modulated energy weapons¡¨ (¡§Silent Enemy¡¨ [ENT]) or PHASERS did not exist prior to 2200 (¡§A Matter of Time¡¨ [TNG] written by Rick Berman) so NX-01 couldn¡¦t have them, could they? You're right, the NX-01 doesn't have phasers. They have phase pistols and phase cannons, the prelude to phasers. STARFLEET: Starfleet was not established until 2161, as evidenced by the Starfleet Academy Insignia which states ¡§Starfleet Academy Ex Astris Scientia (Meaning, from the stars knowledge) San Francisco MMCLXI¡¨ (2161) What episode was this established in? :) KLINGONS: Klingons were not encountered until 2218, this encounter took place in deep space and caused a misunderstanding leading to decades of war (¡§First Contact¡¨ [TNG]). AND THE FOREHEADS!!! Why would this mistake occur if the Klingons had been contacted before that time?Answer: It would not happen, therefore the events in ¡§Broken Bow¡¨ [ENT] DO NOT fit in to Star Trek history at all! Again, it's called creative license. Does the "2218" date mean that much? We never saw Klingon first contact nor related events, so what difference does it make if they change the year so long as it doesn't conflict with other Trek events? I'm rather glad they showed Klingon first contact in "Broken Bow". As for the forheads... the original Star Trek had a low budget. The Klingons were always ment to look as they did in the movies and spin-off series. DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations" showing the TOS Klingons was intended as humor and not to be taken serrious, thus Worf's line, "We do not discuss it with outsiders." FERENGI: The Ferengi were NEVER encountered before the 24th century and were never seen by humans prior to the events shown in ¡§The Last Outpost¡¨ [TNG]. If they had contacted humans in any way before that time as they supposedly did in ¡§Acquisition¡¨ [ENT] then knowing them as we now do it is a CERTAINTY that they would have at least tried to open trade negotiations with us. Just as they did with the very dangerous Dominion (¡§Rules of Acquisition¡¨ [DS9]). Not neccessarilly. The Ferengi were out and about decades before first contact in "The Last Outpost". Picard even fought them with his ship, the Stargazer, as we learned in "The Battle". So, Archer encounterring the Ferengi in an isolated incident without learning about their species nor their name, and that remaining and isolated incident, could easilly be "lost" in the databases. Also why would Archer and his inept crew allow a group of potentially dangerous criminals to go on their merry way? What should they do? Cancel the mission and take them back to Earth? It was an EXCUSE to stop them from learning more about the Ferengi, an excuse that doesn¡¦t work and shows a lazy and unprofessional writing style It was not an excuse. The Ferengi are funny. DS9 fans loved them. It was a way to show the TNG-style Ferengi with whips, to link have a link to TNG & DS9, and to just have some plain old fun. Get over it, good grief. VISUAL COMMUNICATION: Visual communication (and probably view screens for that matter) was not available to Earth Starships during the Romulan War of 2156-2160 (¡§Balance of Terror¡¨ [TOS]) so how did Archer get such a thing before that time? We have viewscreens now. It'd be retarded for the NX-01, a ship 150 years into the future, to not have view screens. :) PHOTON TORPEDOS: NX-01 now has photonic (or photon) torpedos how is this possible in 2152 when Spock once pointed out that ¡§Only primitive atomic weapons¡¨ were available during the Romulan conflict of 2156-2160? Again, based on our current advancements in technology, it's far more likely we'd have fought a war with aliens by the mid-22nd century with some forum of advanced weapons, like on Trek, instead of nuclear missles. With that said, I've no problem with the "photonic torpedoes", I just wish they'd have picked a more creative name. PLASMA WEAPONS: In the episode ¡§Broken Bow¡¨ [ENT] the Klingon is shot by a farmer wielding a plasma rifle. However according to Janeway there were no regenerative shields and no plasma weapons in Kirks time (the 23rd century) (¡§Flashback¡¨ [VGR]) so how could there be plasma rifles in the 22nd century? Do you expect them to remember every line of dialog from every single episode? :) LYING VULCANS: Vulcans are unable to lie (¡§The Enterprise Incident¡¨ [TOS] and ¡§Data¡¦s Day¡¨[TNG]) yet in ¡§Enterprise¡¨ they¡¦re lying deceitful pigs! Um... no. Vulcans had a police not to lie, they were quite capable of lieing. Spock lied, Tuvok lied, so I'm sure a number of other Vulcans have lied. VULCANS WITH FEELINGS: We all know that Vulcans show no feelings yet in ¡§Shadows of P¡¦Jem¡¨ [ENT] the Vulcans show anger at the loss of their outpost and the Vulcan Captain was obviously angry at being misled by Archer THAT DOESN¡¦FIT THEIR PROFILE! This is an earlier century, and furthermore, knowing how sensitive the situation is between the Vulcans and Andorrians, I'm not surprised that the Vulcans showed a bit of anger at the lost of the outpost. Worse still in the episode ¡§The Seventh¡¨ [ENT] T¡¦Pol¡¦s feelings of guilt almost killed her, Now that¡¦s going too far! Why? Not all Vulcans are the same. T'Pol would be borring if she were a stereotypical Vulcan. T'Pol has always been more emotional than your average Vulcan. For Vulcans, this is bad. For the audience, this is good as it creates good story telling. VULCAN SECRETS: If Kirk and his crew knew nothing of ¡§Pon Farr¡¨ (which was the case) as it was a closely guarded secret, then how is it that everyone knows about it in ¡§Enterprise¡¨? They don't. Only Phlox and Reed know about it, both of whom are keeping it a secret at T'Pol's request. THE PRIME DIRECTIVE: Granted, the prime directive doesn¡¦t actually exist in ¡§Enterprise¡¨ however they are continually concerned about the impact they might have on other less advanced cultures, that being the case the events in ¡§A Piece of the Action¡¨ [TOS] could never have occurred. BUT THEY DID OCCUR! Huh? LACKING HUMAN TECHNOLOGY: The humans in ¡§Enterprise¡¨ are some of the least technologically advanced people around, well behind the Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and even the Ferengi.How are meant to believe that these people will become the leaders of a great federation of planets within ten years? That¡¦s not only implausable it¡¦s LUICROUS! See: Season 3 All of the facts I¡¦ve given here are ATTRIBUTABLE, LOGICAL AND IRREFUTABLE, it is literally impossible to put forward any workable argument against them without making excuses or fabrications. Really? I didn't have any problems doing so. Face facts, you may enjoy Enterprise but it does not fit in to Star Trek history in any way, therefore it IS NOT a Star Trek series and has no right to use the name! Face facts, I enjoy Enterprise, which fits into Star Trek "history" with a little creative license so the franchise can go on and not come to a stagnent end. It is Star Trek and deserves the name. Edited May 28, 2004 by Captain Jean-Luc Picard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
v_seven 0 Posted May 28, 2004 I could never hate you Harry, I love Ent and I don't care about the timeline. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mj 7 Posted May 28, 2004 I was disappointed with the season finale of Enterprise, and sick of the timeline changes, but I love the series. I may criticize it, but not because I want it cancelled. To the contrary, I want it to continue its full seven year spread. I agree with what VBG said about harry's comments, and with others who do not need to have everything line up perfectly to be able to enjoy real Star Trek. Since I have watched Star Trek since when TOS was on the air in 1966, I recognize Star Trek when I see it. Enterprise is Star Trek. I have a couple of comments about some of harry's comment. LYING VULCANS: Vulcans are unable to lie (“The Enterprise Incident” [TOS] and “Data’s Day”[TNG]) yet in “Enterprise” they’re lying deceitful pigs!What was Spock's full-blooded Vulcan brother named...was it Sybok? He was Vulcan and he was deceptive, and in a TOS movie..so that was even before TNG. Spock was involved in lying and deception ( not reporting their true whereabouts and condition in TUC), as was Valeris, in the TOS movie The Undiscovered Country. The Vulcans are mostly honest, but there are exception seen even in the TOS era! VULCANS WITH FEELINGS: We all know that Vulcans show no feelings yet in “Shadows of P’Jem” [ENT] the Vulcans show anger at the loss of their outpost and the Vulcan Captain was obviously angry at being misled by Archer THAT DOESN’FIT THEIR PROFILE!Worse still in the episode “The Seventh” [ENT] T’Pol’s feelings of guilt almost killed her, Now that’s going too far! Spock's father Sarek showed affection to his wife by touching fingers at the end of he TOS episode "Journey to Babel." In VOY, there was an episode which showed how hard it was for Tuvok to actually get to the point where he was in control of his emotions. To me "The Seventh" fit right in. T'pol had a struggle...not the Vulcans who were trying to help her. Why would you expect all Vulcans to have perfect logic, and perfect self control? In our society is everyone at the top of the class, or are some people more proficient than others in their mastery of social conduct? Vulcans aren't "logic robots". VULCAN SECRETS: If Kirk and his crew knew nothing of “Pon Farr” (which was the case) as it was a closely guarded secret, then how is it that everyone knows about it in “Enterprise”? A few people knew that T'pol was out of control--the ones who tried to stop her...even those few did not all know the reason behind her strange behavior. Phlox knew what was going on.....he did not necessarily make it known why T'pol was out of control. And things do get hushed up...there is no reason to believe there is a record that would be passed on. THE PRIME DIRECTIVE: Granted, the prime directive doesn’t actually exist in “Enterprise” however they are continually concerned about the impact they might have on other less advanced cultures, that being the case the events in “A Piece of the Action” [TOS] could never have occurred. BUT THEY DID OCCUR! It was Phlox and T'pol, the experienced aliens, that raised the questions of impact on society that had the Enterpise crew thinking about it. It was not the ideas of the humans. So it is not clear these issues would have arisen on all human ships! This is one contribution to Federation that was not originated by humans first. There is no reason to believe that on all human ships they were practicing something like the prime directive. To get everyone to do it is why they came up with a directive. So the Horizon crew was likely to make the mistake made in the TOS episode A Piece of the Action.LACKING HUMAN TECHNOLOGY: The humans in “Enterprise” are some of the least technologically advanced people around, well behind the Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and even the Ferengi. How are meant to believe that these people will become the leaders of a great federation of planets within ten years? That’s not only implausable it’s LUICROUS!As I have said in other threads, the Xindi arc provides reason for the humans to lead the Federation. it could never be because of technolology. I'll quote myself from the thread Enterprise is Militaristic, with some editing to answer this remark. Click for Spoiler: This season has finally given me the ability to believe that humans, and not any these other species, should lead the Federation, by key things that Archer has done, things that I think are the characteristics that eventually dominate the Federation, but are currently demonstrated only by the humans with regularity. Namely, in spite of Archer's supposed single-minded focus on his desire and duty to save earth, he has also expended decided effort on the behalf of other species. The two strong examples of this are 1) destroying the Xindi prototype of the weapon to keep the Andorians from having a terrible weapon with which to threaten the Vulcans ( to the astonishment of the Andorians); and 2) sending the Enterprise to finish off the spheres while just a team goes to continue to try to stop the weapon (why? because the Xindi are facing the same magnitude of destruction as the humans.) Contrast the Xindi and the humans: the Xindi acted completely in terms of self-preservation, which is why the weapon exists. Contrast the humans and the Vulcans: Vulcan logic would not allow them to risk going into the Expanse to aid the humans ( but the humans now have a complete solution to the Vulcan's problems in the Expanse). Logic would not permit the Vulcans to risk themselves for the humans. Vulcans only help when it is logical. Contrast the humans and the Andorians: The Andorians are driven by their suspicions of the Vulcans, and self-interest, and sought the weapon for themselves. Even in acting in self-interest and self-preservation, the humans have considered a bigger picture, and the value of others besides themselves. Yes, they have also done a couple of morally wrong things, but even those situations were moderated by better values. For instance Archer left food and supplies for the race he stole the warp engine part from. What has been the impact of the humans? The Xindi, who had been manipulated by the sphere-builders, discover this by courageously considering Archer's evidence--questioning closely held beliefs of long standing. The Andorians sent copies of the prototypes schematics secretly to Archer before parting---sharing. ( And later Shran is there to help as the weapon closes in on Earth.) It remains to be seen what the Vulcans do, but as Trip said, " I would love to see Sovall's face..." when the humans accomplish their mission. Why should the humans lead or be a leader in the Federation? It all came out in this arc. The Trek saga needed all these pieces. It was at times tedious. But it is GREAT science fiction! And, in spite of the Enterprise bashers, this season has laid the foundations for humans being a lead race in the Federation...broader vision, self-sacrifce, courage, compassion, resourcefulness, tenacity. And time and experience will teach humans everything else they need to know. All of the facts I’ve given here are ATTRIBUTABLE, LOGICAL AND IRREFUTABLE, it is literally impossible to put forward any workable argument against them without making excuses or fabrications. What you put forth as fact are your interpretation of fact. They are not particularly logical....you give reasons, not logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho42 13 Posted May 28, 2004 :blink: Here's Earth's Starfleet emblem.... Click for Spoiler: The Adventures of STF.net Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VaBeachGuy 12 Posted May 28, 2004 VULCANS WITH FEELINGS: We all know that Vulcans show no feelings yet in “Shadows of P’Jem” [ENT] the Vulcans show anger at the loss of their outpost and the Vulcan Captain was obviously angry at being misled by Archer THAT DOESN’FIT THEIR PROFILE!Worse still in the episode “The Seventh” [ENT] T’Pol’s feelings of guilt almost killed her, Now that’s going too far! You should study your Star Trek history a little better. I recommend "All Our Yesterdays" as a starting point. In it Spock speaks of Vulcan emotion and their need to control them. Also as has been pointed out, Sarek has displayed emotion and feeling. Take for example the TNG episode "Sarek". Go the scene in Ten Forward where they are listening to the concert and Sarek begins to cry. I don't know about you but I'd call that "Feelings" and emotion. Vulcans do indeed have feelings and emotions, they just suppress them. As anyone that has watched any large amount of Star Trek knows. As for contradictions, all Trek episodes after "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" are in contradiction with TOS. In TOS Captain Kirk says: Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.United Earth? This is very difficult to explain. So what is the "United Earth Space Probe Agency"? No mention of Starfleet, no mention if the United Federation of Planets. Would seem to be a problem. Going by your rules Trek should have closed it's doors after season 1 because the "timeline" was shot right there. STARFLEET: Starfleet was not established until 2161, as evidenced by the Starfleet Academy Insignia which states “Starfleet Academy Ex Astris Scientia (Meaning, from the stars knowledge) San Francisco MMCLXI” (2161) "Starfleet Academy" may have been established in 2161, but where are you getting the data that says that Starfleet itself was established in 2161? The Federation was established in 2161, But there is evidence that STarfleet existed for some time before the Federation. During your quest through Star Trek Past watch the DS9 episode Inquisition. In it you will see the introduction of Section 31 and you will see that Sloan explains that Section 31 was part of the "Original Starfleet Charter". Which means that there must be another "Starfleet Charter" if there is an "Original" one. In case you don't have that episode handy, here's a link to a short video clip. Section 31 VULCAN SECRETS: If Kirk and his crew knew nothing of “Pon Farr” (which was the case) as it was a closely guarded secret, then how is it that everyone knows about it in “Enterprise”? As was explained in Amok Time and further episodes, this is a very personal thing to the Vulcans. A "Personal" matter is something that you can choose to share with someone or not. As for the people on Enterprise knowing about it, refresh my memory. Which episode is it discussed in and how do we learn that everyone knows about it? THE PRIME DIRECTIVE: Granted, the prime directive doesn’t actually exist in “Enterprise” however they are continually concerned about the impact they might have on other less advanced cultures, that being the case the events in “A Piece of the Action” [TOS] could never have occurred. BUT THEY DID OCCUR! Ever hear of "Captains discretion"? If it's not a "rule" or "Law" there will people that do it and there will people that don't do it. How does one Captain's discretion screw up the Time line? LACKING HUMAN TECHNOLOGY: The humans in “Enterprise” are some of the least technologically advanced people around, well behind the Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and even the Ferengi.How are meant to believe that these people will become the leaders of a great federation of planets within ten years? That’s not only implausable it’s LUICROUS! You're stating opinion here. In TOS when the Romulan War is discussed they speak of Atomic warheads, if the humans of Enterprise aren't advanced enough for you then why weren't the humans that were spoken of in TOS from that time frame? If anything humanity of Enterprise is more advanced then we were led to believe in TOS. All of the facts I’ve given here are ATTRIBUTABLE, LOGICAL AND IRREFUTABLE, it is literally impossible to put forward any workable argument against them without making excuses or fabrications. Consider your logic Refuted with a workable argument. Also, this is from IMDB: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0253754/trivia Every previous Star Trek series gets some sort of mention or reference. There's a maneuver named for Captain Kirk from "Star Trek" (1966). There is mention of the Dominion War from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" (1993). Captain Janeway from "Star Trek: Voyager" (1995) has a cameo. And one of the ships that the Enterprise was to rendezvous with is the USS Archer, named for the captain in "Enterprise" (2001). The ships backing the Enterprise in Federation territory according to Data and Picard's meeting in stellar cartography are: USS Intrepid, USS Valiant, USS Galaxy, USS Aries, USS Nova, USS Hood, and USS Archer (named after the Captain from the Star Trek series "Enterprise.") Again, you are more then welcome to completely hate Star Trek Enterprise. You are free to not watch it and you are free to lobby to have it taken off the air. But don't stand on a pedestal and try to look down on everyone that likes the show and ridicule Star Trek Enterprises fans. Are there minor problems with the time line? Maybe. Same goes for TOS, it contradicted the timeline within the confines of it's 3 seasons and it was TOS that created the Timeline. TNG did also as did DS9 and Voyager during their runs. None of them screwed up the time line though, they added to it. They enriched it and they made Star Trek what it is today and after 5 series, 1 feature cartoon, 600+ episodes and 10 movies I trust them to do right by the franchise and the fans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho42 13 Posted May 28, 2004 Good post-reading VaBeachGuy, Captain Jean-Luc Picard and mjham :blink: I agree on several of the things mentioned there, by them, and I do follow the timeline(s)... Oh, and here's a picture of the U.E.S.P.A. emblem: Click for Spoiler: The Adventures of STF.net Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nemesis 0 Posted May 28, 2004 Off topic but thanks for that cool pic of the Akira class CJLP! It's my new background :blink: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Posted May 28, 2004 Tim, the leader of saveenterprise.com said in the chat: forget Cannon and the timeline.. It's hard to put a lot of stock in the words of a person who can't even spell them properly. :blink: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites