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headborg

New Romulan War Ideas

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Ok- I know I'm beating a tired horse here but- that Romulan war is 2 years away. I've had some new thoughts on the subject. (1) the vulcans know about the Romulan Star Empire-because the romulans are basically warrior vulcans! they had a war already with them. (2) during the nx-01 period the Vulcan's are shown to

have a large StarFleet and Earth starfleet is peanuts-. So why not begin with Romulans attacking the Vulcans-the Vulcans will tell Earth to stay-out of it/Earth will look on like America during the early world wars....build up the Earth Starfleet while the Vulcan starfleet gets slowly destroyed over the next 2 seasons...Earth will begin to Lean-Lease to the Vulcans(like America did for England). Cloaked Romulan ships will ambush(in Wolf packs...like U-boats) merchant shipping and will at some point destroy 1 to many Earth ships....drawing Earth into the conflict....thus

explaining the rise(domance) of Earth's starfleet...and the demise of the Vulcan "high command" and it's powerful starfleet.

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that's why i said it was a new idea- B&B have created the "mess" it's just an idea to solve the plot problems of (1) the Vulcan's have knowledge of the Romulans, past "history" with them. (2) Earth doesn't have a strong starfleet, needs a reason for building up a large fleet. (3) The Vulcan High-Command has a much more advanced/powerful starfleet in 2154/ there has to be an explaination as to where/what happened to it? Why is the Federation Starfleet dominataed by Earth Designed/Named Starships? where did all the Vulcan starships go?

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that's why i said it was a new idea

...that violates 35 years of continuity.

 

- B&B have created the "mess"

What mess? <_<

 

it's just an idea to solve the plot problems of (1) the Vulcan's have knowledge of the Romulans, past "history" with them.

How is this a problem?

 

(2) Earth doesn't have a strong starfleet, needs a reason for building up a large fleet.

SEE: Season 3, Xindi conflict

 

(3) The Vulcan High-Command has a much more advanced/powerful starfleet in 2154/ there has to be an explaination as to where/what happened to it? Why is the Federation Starfleet dominataed by Earth Designed/Named Starships? where did all the Vulcan starships go?

Vulcans aren't interrested in conflict. When the Xindi attacked Earth, they had no interrest in going after the attackers, so it's logical to assume that the Vulcans would allow Earth's Starfleet to become the dominant force. As for where the Vulcan fleet went... perhaps they are orbitting Vulcan?

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that's why i said it was a new idea

...that violates 35 years of continuity.

 

- B&B have created the "mess"

What mess? :naughty:

 

it's just an idea to solve the plot problems of (1) the Vulcan's have knowledge of the Romulans, past "history" with them.

How is this a problem?

 

(2) Earth doesn't have a strong starfleet, needs a reason for building up a large fleet.

SEE: Season 3, Xindi conflict

 

(3) The Vulcan High-Command has a much more advanced/powerful starfleet in 2154/ there has to be an explaination as to where/what happened to it? Why is the Federation Starfleet dominataed by Earth Designed/Named Starships? where did all the Vulcan starships go?

Vulcans aren't interrested in conflict. When the Xindi attacked Earth, they had no interrest in going after the attackers, so it's logical to assume that the Vulcans would allow Earth's Starfleet to become the dominant force. As for where the Vulcan fleet went... perhaps they are orbitting Vulcan?

1-continuity has been broken so many times by B&B- that a little more wouldn't hurt, it already looks like swiss cheese and Enterprise is still making more holes! The xendi arc, doesn't seem to be arc'ing, it's a full departure. It seems they will now be a "new" founding member of the Federation! Imagine that! a technologically superior founding member of the Federation-with members serving on Enterprise-J.....funny they must have been completely "fogotten" members of the federation all this time-Kirk's day, Picard, Voyager, Ds9. The Romulan War-between Earth and Romulas could still start out between the Vulcan's and Romulans without violation 35 years of continuty...When we Americans talk of WW2- we often say it was between us and Germany...we don't always go into details like- oh yea, it started 3 years eariler when Hitler invaded Poland, then western europe....so adding more details like the Romulan War beginning between them isn't that big a deal.

2. the mess? see "enterprise bashing" and the fact that 90% of the Trek Fans at the Chicago convention in April--booded when Nimoy asked what we thought about the new "enterprise"-sorry I was there heard for myself...there's alot going on that shouldn't be happening this early in "trek history" and most of it is "continuity" related. It's still a great show...

3. plot problem-Vulcan's knowing about the Romulans/ T'Pol is vulcan, Earth has contact with the Vulcans..the Vulcans gave Starfleet a Database..so they could find their way around "sorta a hichhiker's guide"...but Archer doesn't seem to be familar with the there "Romulan Star Empire' and T'Pol hasn't been forth coming with any information...information that should be "common knowledge" to all Vulcans.....I'd call that a plot problem.

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Run with it HeadBorg, don't listen to people when it's your imagination they are attacking. :naughty:

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I think it's a good plotline, it would certainly explain how Earth became a power in the region when as of now in the Enterprise era it's still a backwater. Personally I couldn't care less about continuity if it's an interesting idea, it's not like B&B have been all that concerned with continuity in Enterprise, and besides it's all FICTION, I don't analyze the stories I enjoy them.

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that's why i said it was a new idea

...that violates 35 years of continuity.

 

- B&B have created the "mess"

What mess? :biggrin:

 

it's just an idea to solve the plot problems of (1) the Vulcan's have knowledge of the Romulans, past "history" with them.

How is this a problem?

 

(2) Earth doesn't have a strong starfleet, needs a reason for building up a large fleet.

SEE: Season 3, Xindi conflict

 

(3) The Vulcan High-Command has a much more advanced/powerful starfleet in 2154/ there has to be an explaination as to where/what happened to it? Why is the Federation Starfleet dominataed by Earth Designed/Named Starships? where did all the Vulcan starships go?

Vulcans aren't interrested in conflict. When the Xindi attacked Earth, they had no interrest in going after the attackers, so it's logical to assume that the Vulcans would allow Earth's Starfleet to become the dominant force. As for where the Vulcan fleet went... perhaps they are orbitting Vulcan?

1-continuity has been broken so many times by B&B

I see no evidance of that.

 

- that a little more wouldn't hurt, it already looks like swiss cheese and Enterprise is still making more holes!

Aside from a blooper here and there like "Klingon Warbirds", so I think continuity is fine on ENT and doesn't need to be played arround with.

 

The xendi arc, doesn't seem to be arc'ing, it's a full departure.

Full departure of what? It looks to me like they kept the arc going all season.

 

It seems they will now be a "new" founding member of the Federation!

The Xindi civil war will probably prevent this. It's probable that they're among the first to join the Federation.

 

Imagine that! a technologically superior founding member of the Federation-with members serving on Enterprise-J.....funny they must have been completely "fogotten" members of the federation all this time-Kirk's day, Picard, Voyager, Ds9.

1. They probably won't join.

2. THe Enterprise-J is in the 26th century, so the Xindi could join anytime between the founding of the UFP and the 26th century.

3. Just because they weren't mentioned, that doesn't mean they were forgotten. Have you had a big discussion of your nation's first leader this year? If not, does that mean you forgot about him? :naughty:

 

The Romulan War-between Earth and Romulas could still start out between the Vulcan's and Romulans without violation 35 years of continuty...

OK, having start with a Vulcan/Romulan conflict works, as long as the actual was is between Humans and Romulans. The Vulcans don't get involved till later on.

 

When we Americans talk of WW2- we often say it was between us and Germany...we don't always go into details like- oh yea, it started 3 years eariler when Hitler invaded Poland, then western europe....so adding more details like the Romulan War beginning between them isn't that big a deal.

It's a big deal when it contradicts important Trek episodes.

 

2. the mess? see "enterprise bashing" and the fact that 90% of the Trek Fans at the Chicago convention in April--booded when Nimoy asked what we thought about the new "enterprise"

That sounds like a very rude group of Trek fans. I respect Nimoy for not walking off the stage.

 

sorry I was there heard for myself...

Sorry about that.

 

there's alot going on that shouldn't be happening this early in "trek history" and most of it is "continuity" related.

OK, prove it.

 

It's still a great show...

Agreed! :biggrin:

 

3. plot problem-Vulcan's knowing about the Romulans

How is this a plot problem?

 

T'Pol is vulcan, Earth has contact with the Vulcans..the Vulcans gave Starfleet a Database..so they could find their way around "sorta a hichhiker's guide"

Why would the Vulcans include info on the Romulans? You know how currious Humans are... :naughty:

 

...but Archer doesn't seem to be familar with the there "Romulan Star Empire' and T'Pol hasn't been forth coming with any information...

She has good reason not to come forth with the information.

 

information that should be "common knowledge" to all Vulcans.....

Based on? :biggrin:

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This is stupid. All of this discussion. Not this thread, I mean, but all of this, Star Trek, Movies, T.V., it's all FICTION!!! It all comes out of someone's imagination, without imagination we wouldn't be here talking about this. You Don't slam a person for having creative ideas, unless of course you don't have any yourself. :naughty:

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This is stupid.

No it's not. :biggrin:

 

All of this discussion. Not this thread, I mean, but all of this, Star Trek, Movies, T.V., it's all FICTION!!!

We know. :biggrin:

 

It all comes out of someone's imagination, without imagination we wouldn't be here talking about this.

That's true. :naughty:

 

You Don't slam a person for having creative ideas, unless of course you don't have any yourself. :naughty:

:biggrin: No one slammed anyone's ideas. I was just pointing out that some suggested ideas don't fit into established continuity.

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ok u want a list of continuity problems.

(1) an Akira class starship 200 years b4 it's time

(2) photon torpedos-mark1- very earily in trek history

(3) Worf stated in a next genereration epsode- phasors didn't exist until 2200!

(4) tarra nova- Constogoa left earth couple years after first contact- built by Earth with no help from Vulcans.-1st colony to be colonixed outside starsystem. What happened to the Vaga colony, or Alph Centari

(5) Utopia Plantia fleet yard astablished b4 Mars colonized

(6)Transporters-in 2151

(7) Romulan cloaking technology- in 2151 ( see TOS-"Balance of Terror") Romulan's cloaking technology a big surprise in 2245!

(8)First contact with klingon Empire in 2151- Capt. Picard clearly stated that first contact was in 2215 and was a disaster-resulting in years of conflict.

(9)first contact with Borg-frozen since "First Contact"-no historical regarding them or Archer's contact with them in Database-til Picard's time....not likely.

(10) first contact with Frengii-again no record til Picard's time

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

good changes:

Archer's great-grandfather fought in Eugenic War.......at first I looked at this as a bad continuity error....as Eugenic war 1992-1996....but if you consider Khan was frozen for hundreds of years b4 Kirk "woke" him up....maybe the date khan gave(1996)...was a mistake. Slight Brain Damage/Degeneration of mental factaties could account for the mistake...and if you move the date to 2042-2046- it fits!

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ok u want a list of continuity problems.

(1) an Akira class starship 200 years b4 it's time

What Akira-class ship? :( Enterprise is NX-class.

 

(2) photon torpedos-mark1- very earily in trek history

They don't have photon torpedoes, they have photonic torpedoes. Similar name and casing, different technology.

 

(3) Worf stated in a next genereration epsode- phasors didn't exist until 2200!

They don't have phasers. They have phase pistols, the prelude to phasers.

 

(4) tarra nova- Constogoa left earth couple years after first contact- built by Earth with no help from Vulcans.-1st colony to be colonixed outside starsystem.  What happened to the Vaga colony, or Alph Centari

I've no idea what this is about. :tear:

 

(5) Utopia Plantia fleet yard astablished b4 Mars colonized

How is this a problem?

 

(6)Transporters-in 2151

How is this a problem?

 

(7) Romulan cloaking technology- in 2151 ( see TOS-"Balance of Terror") Romulan's  cloaking technology a big surprise in 2245!

No. It was that Romulans had a "new" cloaking technology in 2245. In TOS, we thought it was new. Now with ENT, it's possible that Starfleet learned to detect Romulan cloaks through the Sulliban cell ship, so the Romulans had to invent a whole new cloaking technology a century later.

 

(8)First contact with klingon Empire in 2151- Capt. Picard clearly stated that first contact was in 2215 and was a disaster-resulting in years of conflict.

It's a number. What difference does it make if they change a number? :(

 

(9)first contact with Borg-frozen since "First Contact"-no historical regarding them or Archer's contact with them in Database-til Picard's time....not likely.

Wrong. It's likely they were classified so only top Starfleet officers new about them. Picard probably got access to this database after he made first contact with the Borg. Otherwise, why would such sensitive, classified data be in the Enterprise computer?

 

(10) first contact with Frengii-again no record til Picard's time

They made first contact with short, ugly aliens with big ears. They didn't know it was the Ferengi, and when was it stated when first contact with the Ferengi actually happened?

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

good changes:

Archer's great-grandfather fought in Eugenic War.......at first I looked at this as a bad continuity error....as Eugenic war 1992-1996....but if you consider Khan was frozen for hundreds of years b4 Kirk "woke" him up....maybe the date khan gave(1996)...was a mistake.  Slight Brain Damage/Degeneration of mental factaties could account for the mistake...and if you move the date to 2042-2046- it fits!

What's wrong with the Eugenics War happening in the 1990's? Star Trek is ficition, it doesn't have to conform to our timeline as our future unfolds, other wise we might as well erase TOS when the 23th century comes arround. :wub:

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that's why i said it was a new idea- B&B have created the "mess" it's just an idea to solve the plot problems of (1) the Vulcan's have knowledge of the Romulans, past "history" with them. (2) Earth doesn't have a strong starfleet, needs a reason for building up a large fleet. (3) The Vulcan High-Command has a much more advanced/powerful starfleet in 2154/ there has to be an explaination as to where/what happened to it? Why is the Federation Starfleet dominataed by Earth Designed/Named Starships? where did all the Vulcan starships go?

I like the plot idea of the humans entering a war that started out to be with the Vulcans, but I disagree with a couple of points.

 

First, I think the build-up in star fleet is happening NOW, as a result of the Xindi attack, and the fact that no one came to the aid of earth! There should be a lot of new ships when Enterprise gets back, and a rapid build-up program in place.

 

Second, if the Vulcans join the Federation, they are going to share a lot of technology with humans, as will other species, so the ships may have a lot of human design, but they will have alien elements as well.

 

Destroying the bulk of the Vulcan fleet--well what about Andoria? Wouldn't they take advatange? Has the Federation already been formed?

 

The Vulcans during Spock's era were still slow to actually serve in star fleet...they were still adjusting to working with humans directly even though they were allies. Where were they? On vulcan vessels! Remember that Tuvok didn't make it in his first attempt to serve with star fleet, and that in Voyager they were still secretive about that seven-year cycle. Yet there were many vessels of all Vulcans ( and wasn't there one still in DS9) in Spock's era, mostly science. The Vulcans are one of the most highly regarded species in the Federation ( established in the TOS episode " Journey to Babel"). I do not think they have to be weakened in their power for humans to assume a lead role.

 

I think the Xindi arc has shown humans to be best suited in terms of their behavior to lead an organization like the Federation....power alone would not qualify them. Humans are the only species besides Vulcans that act in more than their own self-interest. And unlike the Vulcans, humans will take risks that are not "logical' but are correct, giving them an advantage over the Vulcans.

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thnks mjham, that post was "refreshing" and Kool! ok what do you think about Earth already having atleast 12 or so "deadalus" class starships in the fleet? That will make it seem more belivable in two years for the Romulan War....Here's my research: U.S.S. Caralina N.C.C. 160, U.S.S. Archon N.C.C. 189--Both "Deadalus" class starships( per STARTREk Encyclopedia) now (1) if they are "Deadalus" class there must have been a "Deadalus" so we conject it's registry # must be ncc-159....if the Archon was the last "Deadalus" class launched and it was lost the very same year- 2167.(per StarTrek canon)...then that gives StarFleet a min of 30 ships to build...if 2 ships built every year(1-at Utopia Pentia..Mars/ 1-Earth orbit) and it takes 2 years to build a starship...that means the first U.S.S. Deadalus must have been built 2137.....b4 the NX program began in 2149(date construction began on enterprise) That would give enought time for Starfleet to have around 12 in service right now during "Enterprise"...what's really kool with assigning registry numbers sequentially is that it works out that if Starfleet "reserved" a number for NX-01 to be changed to after "testing/trial" is my

calculations comes up with NCC-170 ...for it's Number...so it's easy to see that the

"Constitution" class enterprise could just be assigned NCC-1701! it works out exactly that way on paper

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I am going to confess up front that I cannot follow all of the ship types. I'm not into ships or cars ( I drive a Chevy, and am fine with it). Having said all that it still seems that they have to crank up the ship-building. One every two years....what about airplanes now...are they built on an assembly line, or they only do that with cars? I know thay have to build in space, but cant they be more efficient cranking out the parts?

 

It would be nice if there was some information about the actual size of starfleet in those various star trek encyclopedias.

 

You have certainly given a lot of thought to this. Perhaps someone who knows about ship types will conribute to this discussion.

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fans have been trying various ways to make sense of the "registry numbers" and different skymes have been tryed...there's lots of web sites u can visit...with starship databases in them. as for the NCC some say it stands for Naval Costruction Code....but now I perfer to conject that it could stand for Naval Construction Contract..... that explains a lot more.

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Naval construction contract sounds convincing too! I rather like this plot idea and I do think there is a several blaring continuity problems. I think there are more apparent contiunuity problems in ENT than in the other shows imo. This does not mak it a bad show though. I think history should be taken seriously especially when one is trying to write it backwards so to speak.

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The original idea was for the registry number to include the type of ship and number of ship, but the movies and TNG established them as being production numbers, the newer the ship, the higher the production number.

 

With that said, NX-01 is the first Starfleet ship designed for deep space missions.

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The original idea was for the registry number to include the type of ship and number of ship, but the movies and TNG established them as being production numbers, the newer the ship, the higher the production number.

 

With that said, NX-01 is the first Starfleet ship designed for deep space missions.

the "x" stands for experimental.....always has been..always will.

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headborg, in just reading your first post on this topic, I really like it. But explain about the Nazis and the unknown alien.

Ok..I just re-watched "Zero Hour" for the 4th time, yes the Alien is a Reman, so atleast B&B are working the Romulan War back into their "new" historic pre-federation chrono-no-logic quantum leaping crossover line. So in the poll I gave zero hour a 6 but now it's earned a 7 from me. looks like the xendi arc/temporal cold war arc will become the base-line history and the Romulan War will be a off-shoot of the TCW which is just as bad...now there's two temporal causality loops at play: according to B&B the Federation is created "inspired" by daniels "suggesting it to Archer...And Archer runs it up the flag poll so-to-speak- which really doesn't do credit for "the free will of the collective races" which unite for their common good...now it's more like...."gee whiz...that archer guy thanks we should"...well I guess if Archer says we should.." and now with this Romulans from the future sending a Reman back in Earth's past to Destroy humanity before the Romulan/Earth war and preventing the Federation from being created...causing the Earth/Romulan War in the first place...see it's just STUPID! It's going to be season 4 of Time TRek...they need to take the "club" off the steering wheel...they only know how to fly in circles...why not a season of space exploration?

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It looks Reman, but I don't know. I have been thinking that the romulan-earth war should be discussed and the Daedalus discussed.

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The Daedalus class starship...

wait, just to to ditl.org and go to federation ships and go to the daedalus class...

or it is under other ships...

check both...

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the Deadalus class starships are a pre-federation/early federation starship:

known Deadalus class starships: U.S.S. Deadalus NCC-(xxx)

U.S.S. Essex

U.S.S. Horizon

U.S.S. Archon

There is the model on Sisco's Desk(Visual Canon) but as CJLP has pointed out...none of the principal actors actually pointed to it and said any thing like "Gee, Sisco that's a great model of a Deadalus!" so I have to concede to his point...the design of the Deadalus is not 100% canon, in fact we've never seen one on screen.

But as for the U.S.S. Carolina NCC-160 I do not believe it belongs in that class...It was referenced to by Scott in TOS, but later in TNG it was stated the last Deadalus was de-commissioned(taken out of service) in 2197...TOS was 2264 and since the Archon NCC-189 was lost in 2167...and the highest numbered "Deadalus" class starship...If we "assume" it was launched and lost in the same year and was the last built( since the Constitution class was authorized to be constructed by the Articles of Federation-2161) one must assume the "deadalus" class is a pre-federation design that entered the service of the Federation with Star-Fleet.

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