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Posts posted by Tern

  1. Catching the last lines of your post, here I at last have something to add from myself...it can be a mixed blessing depending what one considers "canonical". Now I don't want to start with that age old issue again, but my thoughts are on how much we Romulan fans depend on the "food" served to us in the episodes concerning Romulans and Romulan Empire in general. Perhaps each of us decides this differently. None of us can do without what we see or read as it is what we're deriving our conclusions and musings from. Personally for me, all what is shown is taken with one mandratory "What if" before everything. The episodes and the way Romulans are portrayed there are after all someone's viewpoint. We also have our own viewpoint where we may not interpret things the way the writer does - for example the issues on Romulan "aggression", "trickery", everything that someone sees because they must create "villains" to strenghten the role of the good guys. But we will see reasons behind their actions, because we seek a different point to look from. Perhaps we happen to be concerned about reasons far more than the screenwriter is concerned and he may not give any ground for further contemplations "why". Only provide us with "what".


    So I don't have any concerns how Romulans will be portrayed in the new episode. I am just curious to see yet another viewpoint on them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are portrayed poorly. But then I'll simply watch through and forget. Because my "canon" is my gut feeling.


    I think that Romulans are special most of all because they are what they are :) I also believe that even if tons of movies are made with detailed plots regarding Romulans, they still will not lose that special nuance of mystery to them.


    P.S. I read all the spoilers as I am far away from the regular US ST airing time and god knows when they will be showing it here. :)

  2. I am not sure what exactly you mean by Surak's "new path"? Do you mean that he was the founder of the philosophy of "emotional control" that gained popularity among Vulcans and transformed them into what they are now and so brought whole new beginning to the race? Thinking on this, it has a point too that must be mentioned. Otherwise I was rather thinking of S'task (Surak's apprentice) who later challenged Surak's philosophy and who brought the idea to separate the race. But surely both Surak and S'task served their nation its best purpose, each being a catalyst of a new period of race's development during their time.


    It is interesting to think on, perhaps the whole course of human history would be different if religious wars were avoided. I am almost sure Vulcan would have gone through similar periods as ours if the differences escalated more with time and all were forced to stay on a single planet.

  3. Me is guilty of rare posting as well. But before everything -


    Happy Birthday, Valeris B)


    You're making a noticeable point. Depending what it is meant by "path" of course, I think that if they both were on the same path, the separation of the race wouldn't happen at all. There was something very significant that lead to a desire to divide the paths, a reason that would not exist if all individuals were thinking the same way and having the same values and unquestionable belief that the way is one and true.


    Usually it happens that when something is risen to a degree of extremety (be it idea or way of life), its very opposite starts to be advocated and sought. This is because of the need for balance, even in a society and most of all in an individual (or at least those who are able to think for themselves and are not blind followers of that which someone says to be right). I presume that if this balance was refused to those who started to feel a need for passion by the rest of the society who believed logic must prevail, then this people saw that the only way for them is to separate the paths. The inner paths, so to say. On the society level this lead to the Journey.


    This is just my theory on this. If they stayed "on the same path" such inner differences would lead to social instability, wars, and hardly the two "sub-races" would achieve that which they did otherwise.

  4. Yes exactly, I believe the same. Whether it will be the microcosmos of an individual or the macrocosmos of a race or society, the way is identical if we see it from this point.


    I believe the "journey" of the Romulans is also a symbol of a journey towards discovering the core; and their progress and achievements as a race would point to how far they advanced on the spiritual step as well. This if we look at things not only from a single but from multi-sided (or deeper) philosophical perspective. I feel there is a lot to discover.

  5. The Romulans have only achieved a level of stability by facing the reality of the situation and made it to shore. (or at least have the shore in sight)



    I think it is the journey that also matters, not only reaching the shore. What I mean - you mentioned the split of the two races, where Romulans chose to be basically left on their own and that way they also had to face the sea - but unsupported by the former beliefs and ways of swimming through it. They chose to accept the sea instead, as they realized the importance of the journey itself as much as that of of reaching the shore. And maybe the first most important step to actually create a true new beginning, a whole new civilization that will last, is to realize and accept who you are. If they haven't firstly reached emotional balance from this realization, the sea would have crushed them.

  6. Vulcans 5,000 years ago did not deny the existance of their emotions.  However, they did look for ways to control and eliminate them while the Romulans did not.


    You're statements that Vulcans denied the existence of their emotions is simply untrue. Surak knew it would take generations to remove emotions from the Vulcan psyche (if this was even possible).


    What is meant here, is not denial of the existence of emotions, but of their importance.


    Surak knew it would take generations to remove emotions from the Vulcan psyche


    Yet that is the thing I cannot understand - why?


    It is equally untrue to say that Romulans reject logic.  Let's face it, Romulan ploys and strategies require a high degree of logic to understand.  They simply don't let logic be their guiding force whereas the Vulcans do.



    I agree. Romulan value strategy and the game of mind and without logic this would be impossible to be a good strategist. As for the guiding force, for Romulans it is "Mnhei'sahe" (a code of honor which at times is translated as "The rulling passion"). Perhaps this brings some confusion that Romulans are lead mainly by their emotions. Yet (IMO) this is not quite so, they are guided by both.

  7. Since, by your own words, the Vulcan way of life is not based in reason and is an impediment to their progress, would it be fair to say that Vulcan 'culture' (ie. Vulcan logic) is a mental disorder?



    I wouldn't go that far so to judge it that way. Vulcan life is based on reason but an incomplete (or I'd rather say unmindful) approach to reasoning. The "reason" we mentioned a few posts above embraces more sides of the bigger picture by acknowledging many ways; while Vulcans chose to believe that only one way is the true and relevant. I'd name this culture poor and incomplete instead.


    Another thing I am curious of - why Vulcans chose to supress or discard emotionality? Perhaps something from their history or background events that lead to creating this ideology?

  8. Of course. Self-denial can hardly be something reasonable. If Vulcans were not denying that emotions are a natural thing for a creature and that going against the self instead of understanding it is a far better way to progress, I think they would achieve more than they did. In this sense Romulan view in my opinion is indeed quite more advanced reaction to emotionalism.

  9. Maybe the Romulans realized that emotions and passion are something that can fuel without necessarily destructing and also that logic and emotions do not conflict but supplement each other if both are balanced. I think that Romulans successfully embrace both reason(logic) and passion, kind of embrace them into something one. That's why they prosper.

  10. Why you were worried Valeris? :b-day: As for why they just don't tell the truth...I think this is a good and very important question, I have to think more on this. By now what comes to mind is that this policy is a way to govern things in UFP. All races have something to believe in and something to lead them...But not all people are that strong. In contrast to Romulans for example, who have the strength to openly follow that which they believe in and most of all not be ashamed by it. On the other hand...it is easy to make someone believe in "all-goodness", especially when that someone prefers someone else to think for them and give them the ready-made purpose instead of finding this purpose within.


    I also agree that the parallel with 1984 is good. But still wouldn't say that Orwell's vision and UFP are the same. It is a horrible thing he describes and the Federation still has many honorable and sincere people who do not follow lies. But if a lie is something the whole idea is based on, then indeed there's a danger things to turn that way.

  11. They always say that whatever they are doing is for the "good of the many."  Has the Federation, in its oh-so-noble enterprises (pun intended) ever done anything for the good of the Romulan people? No. They say it is for the good of the universe, or galaxy, or Alpha quadrant, but the Romulans are part of these too. Are they helped? No. As much as I hate to agree with a Klingon, when Azetbur pointed out how hypocritical the Federation was in STVI, I had to agree.


    Na, I haven't read the book. I haven't even read much Star Trek books so to quote my concusions with some additional fact or happening...all that I have are the episodes I've seen and the impression I gained. You know, the picture of something or somebody that starts to develop inside your head. It was wonderful till the moment you start to feel something's wrong somewhere out there.


    A government, be it of Earth, a country or Federation made of many races and planet systems, is always having as primal goal to maintain and protect the interests of its own nation. Own people. In some cases this interest may require to protect another nation for example. To create alliances and fight for territory which you will not later integrate as part of your own. But still this is done because of insuring stability to the own nation, if the danger of spreading conflict may treaten it as well. I cannot understand the ideology that speaks for stiving for the good of all, or many, or the whole Universe and even beyond. To me this sounds as manipulation of those who are naive enough to believe their Federation is the protector of all for the sake of goodness. And no such thing is actually being done because UFP is no fool. It wouldn't exist if it was following its slogans to the last word. As all the rest, it minds its own interests and will or will not think about the good of RSE as long as there is benefit...and this is natural.


    But what had always annoyed me, is masking the motives with something sounding entirely differently. That's why I prefer other races to it, Klingons and the Romulan Empire which doesn't suffer from this syndrome but acts the same way as spoken. I noticed there are few people among many who think the same way about this...Which is sad but it is at least nice to see somebody who does.