STARTREKFANS.NET: Romulan Honor - STARTREKFANS.NET

Jump to content

  • 5 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »

Romulan Honor

#1 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 25 April 2004 - 01:10 AM

Some think Romulans are a cowardly race without honor or worth. Particularly the Klingons. But no one stops to really examine this. I have been researching Romulans for a while now and I found this paragraph from the book Triangle: Imzadi II where a Romulan is talking about the Klingon-Romulan alliance to a Federation member to be rather fascinating:

Quote

Our alliance had an effect on both our races. We learned from each other; unfortunately the mutual education was not an equitable one. We were a better, stronger, more decent race before we allied with the Klingons. An entire generation of our leadership grew up during the alliance, and learned from the Klingons their thieving ways, their duplicity and fundamental lack of trustworthiness. The Klingons, on the other hand, saw the way in which other races regarded us. Saw how our honor, our strategy and  breeding elevated us in the eyes of others. And so they mimicked those attributes in order to raise themselves up to other races, discarding us once they had stipped us of our weaponry and our very character. The are parasites, and mark my words: They will destroy your Federation in the same way that they brought us down. If you trust them, then you are fools. I should know, because we trusted them and were no less foolish.


What do you think? I for one think that this explains how so an honorable race could seem so horrible to other races. I do not believe that the Romulans are very bad, and I have been sympathetic to their side almost for when I first became a Trekkie. Glory to the Romulan Star Empire!
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#2 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 25 April 2004 - 04:58 AM

Valeris, on Apr 25 2004, 01:10 AM, said:


I for one think that this explains how so an honorable race could seem so horrible to other races.

You have answered your own question. The problem is not one of cultural "pollution" because of the klingon alliance,but of the self-imposed ignorance of others toward Romulan culture.
The term honor means very different things to a Romulan and a klingon. To the klingon,honor refers to the individual, while honor to the Romulan is the honor of the group.
We hardly hear of,or from a klingon without the word honor popping up,but has anyone really taken a good look at "klingon honor"?
The klingon goes off to fight for what? His empire, his people, his house....hardly.
His "empire" is nothing more than a unstable coalition of warlords bent on conflicts either internal or external for there individual aggrandizement and that ultimately reinforces the instability of the 'empire',thus his 'honor' is a detriment to the very empire he claims to fight for.
His "people" are either members of other competing houses or powerless civilians caught in the constant wars and with no real hope of safety or security (especially in a empire that pours resources into the military-industrial complex instead of basic infrastructure), so his honor does his people no good.
His "house" is left defenseless while he is gone to war and hopeless if he should die, for what fate awaits the widow or the fatherless child in this empire of his but death or destitution when another house sweeps in and takes their lands and property.
So if by that criteria the Romulans should fall short of "honorable" he should take it as a complement.
the Empire eternal,the Empire universal
Jolan True

#3 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 26 April 2004 - 05:17 PM

Fascinating. I never thought of it quite like that though I cartainly agree with you. I posted this because of what all species think of the Romulans. None of the other species seem to like the Romulans, and I do not understand why because they really do not know the Romulans. Thank you.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#4 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 27 April 2004 - 04:16 AM

My original intention wasn't to focus only on the klingons,but I just didn't have time to continue. (plus my post was already rather long and I didn't think anyone would want me to continue my ramblings :lol: )

This post has been edited by welfconfed: 27 April 2004 - 04:18 AM


#5 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 28 April 2004 - 08:48 PM

I love your "ramblings" if you really wish to call them that. I find them very insightful and not tiring to read at all. I would like for you to post more of your opinions up, after all, that is the point of this topic.
Jolan Tru
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#6 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 29 April 2004 - 08:28 AM

Valeris, on Apr 28 2004, 08:48 PM, said:

I love your "ramblings" if you really wish to call them that. I find them very insightful and not tiring to read at all. I would like for you to post more of your opinions up, after all, that is the point of this topic.
Jolan Tru

Thank you dear lady, your comments are greatly appreciated :rofl:
You mentioned your confusion as to the hostility of other species toward the Romulans when in fact these species know so little about them,but thats precisely why there is hostility, because they are judging the Romulans though the distorting lense of their own cultural bias and thus lash out at what they assume the Romulans to be instead of taking the time to really discover who they are.
Thats why I compared the Romulan and klingon concepts of honor earlier, but I think a current, real world example of what I meant by Romulan ideas of "the honor of the group" might better serve to illustrate the point.
A few days ago Japanese hostages held in Iraq were freed and sent home, but not to the reactions one might expect. The people and government were deeply ashamed of, and angry at the hostages. The reason being, the government of Japan had warned its citizens of the risk of travel to Iraq, but these people chose to ignore the warnings and went to help care for the Iraqi civilians.
Western culture would consider someone who ignored the risks to life and limb to help others as selfless and heroic, but in Japanese culture such a person is thought of as selfish and shameful for having ignored the warnings of the government and the best interest of their country, gotten themselves kidnapped, and forcing Japan to rescue them.
The same situation triggering extremely different reactions from cultures of the same species, on the same planet, and who have wide spread and continual contact with each other, yet the federation,klingons,etc. will judge an alien species that they hardly know and have limited contact with.
Their fallacious assumptions are based on insufficent data, irrational biases, and illogical applications of their cultural standards to situations having to do with alien societies.
Oh well, everyone can't be Romulan.
the Empire eternal, the Empire universal
Jolan True

#7 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 29 April 2004 - 07:15 PM

You are right, again. It is insane how the UFP has claimed to have outgrown racism and yet has so many examples of it in its interactions with other species. I understand your point with the "honor of the group" now too. Romulans do what they do for the good of the Empire as a whole and Klingons do what they do for their own glory. I see what you are saying and once more, I greatly appreciate your insight. I think that I at least see your true point. I agree. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts; it is greatly appreciated. I am forever reseaching the Romulans, trying to find out more about this race that everyone seems to hate and you have helped.
Jolan Tru
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#8 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 29 April 2004 - 07:46 PM

If I might suggest, your research into Romulan culture may be well served by looking at the initial inspirations behind their creation, ancient rome (and I believe spartan culture, and of course the far east) I would suggest the ancient historians that wrote during the time of the empire, such as polybius, plutarch,tacitus,and suetonius. Keep in mind that the Romulans are the roman ideal not the roman reality.
If interested I would post some comparisons of romulan culture and the federation and the nature of the vulcan/romulan split and its effects.
the Empire eternal, the Empire universal
Jolan True

#9 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:18 PM

Did you read that thing on startrek.com about the origin of Romulans? I did not agree with most of it, but it was an interesting read. Also, the book The Lost Era: 2360: Catalyst of Sorrows goes into depth about it too. I am also currently reading a Voyager book that has a bunch of Romulans in their natural environment too. It was all quite fascinating and there are about as many theories as the stars. What do you think?
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#10 User is offline   Q stole my bike 

  • the beer drinking, chain smoking, T'Pol loving Romulan
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,707
  • Joined: 26-February 04

Posted 01 May 2004 - 11:41 AM

Romulans used to be honorable...learn something new everyday, I used to think that the only thing they were good for was making ale... :blink:

#11 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 01 May 2004 - 04:38 PM

They are good for making ale! But they are also honorable, even now.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#12 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 02 May 2004 - 05:49 AM

Valeris, on Apr 30 2004, 06:18 PM, said:

Did you read that thing on startrek.com about the origin of Romulans? I did not agree with most of it, but it was an interesting read. Also, the book The Lost Era: 2360: Catalyst of Sorrows goes into depth about it too. I am also currently reading a Voyager book that has a bunch of Romulans in their natural environment too. It was all quite fascinating and there are about as many theories as the stars. What do you think?

I haven't had the opportunity to read the books you mention, but having read the article at star trek.com, I can see why you disagreed with most of it.
The theorys ranged from implausible speculation to the absolute absurd.
I'll respond to at least a few of their "theories".
Are the Romulans and Vulcans different races?
Given the harsh climate of Vulcan (at least as it has existed for most of Vulcan history), the relatively small beginning populations, and the natural aggressiveness of "vulcanoids", the survival of two competing vulcanoid species is unlikely to say the least.
Did the Vulcans really originate on Romulus?
To support their theory they used three points:
1) Romulus is more hospitable (we really don't know that was true during vulcanoid evolution, and plus the harsher the environment the more the species is forced to evolve)
2)Romulans being more war like wouldn't have been forced out by the more peaceful Vulcans ( thats asssuming that the early "surakians" were peaceful in their 'conversion' of the planet, christianity is a religion of peace but that didn't prevent the crusades)
3) vulcan logic my have been a product of prolonged space travel (and what about the Romulan preoccupation with the scarsity of resources, even to the point of infanticide)
Why are Romulans and Vulcans named after Roman myth?
This is really a question of linguistics not olympic god tampering. The terms Romulan, Vulcan, centurion, senate,etc. are merely the nearest federation standard (ie. english) translations. The klingons have chancellors (a very old european term), the cardassians have legates ( a roman term for the governor of a province), but that doesn't mean any outside interference.
Did the Q separate the Romulans and Vulcans?
While we do know that a Q started a hundred year long war between the Vulcans and the Romulans, thats all we know and when the Q are involved anything is possible,so without further data any theory along those lines is pure conjecture.(but given the level of callous irresponsibility that the Q have demonstrated, i think that they would hardly consern themselves with remeding any problems they created)
Did the Romulans leave because the Vulcans refused to fight anymore?
I'm sorry but I simply can't take this seriously and choose not to bother to respond to this point.
Where did those bumply foreheads come from anyway?
I more or less agree with the theory that the "bumpy" Romulans are just a seperate racial group within Romulan society.
Did the followers of Surak push the Romulans off the planet Vulcan?
The author assumed that the vulcans had already conquered the planets Romulus and Remas, but I think that it is more likely that the Romulans found themselves a minority group on Vulcan after a long period of social evolution to the Surakian view and eventually, when Vulcan developed their early sub-light vessals the Romulans left (possibly in sleeper ships, much like Khan and his fellow 'genetic supermen' did) because I find it very unlikely that the vulcans would have had warp drive for two thousand years, yet be no more advanced than they were when we were contacted.
the Empire eternal, the Empire universal
Jolan True

This post has been edited by welfconfed: 02 May 2004 - 05:54 AM


#13 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:48 PM

I am so happy you agree with me. That article was rather ridiculous. I suppose there are some who would not have the greatest logic (no pun intended) and might believe some of that... Your arguments were good and I agree with them too. I liked that thing you mentioned about the crusades; as I am a Christian, I have studied them quite a bit and it is true. I know one good thing the article did though- it made for some very interesting debates. :drool: I am having fun here; I always enjoy talking with someone who is interested in the same things I am and has good ideas too. There is another book I forgot to mention, Spock's World, which, though it is not canon, deals a lot with ancient Vulcan and thus, the Romulan history. I found it quite interesting and Diane Duane's (the author) theories were actually possible. I also want to see the TOS episode "The Savage Curtain" because I think it deals with Surak and that whole thing.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#14 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:35 AM

"Spock's World" by Diane Duane is one of my favorite trek novels. It is one of the few fiction books that I own that I truly enjoy rereading. ( I rarely enjoy rereading because I usually remember the stories word for word and I see no 'logic' in rereading when there are so many more out there waiting to be read)
Ironically that novel is what prompted me to rethink the Romulans, because if you remember on page 312 Surak refers to the casting out of fear:
"To cast it out, you must first accept it; you must admit it is there."
Then on page 317 he tells his student S'task:
"Logic is a delight to me, but there some things it is no good for."
This sounds more akin to the Romulan view than the vulcan to me, so I believe Romulans are the true followers of Surak.(wether they remember it or not)
I would also highly recommend one of Diane Duane's other novels "Dark Mirror", that is if you are as interested in the mirror universe as I am. ( I started an embassy for the mirror universe in the 'other species' section, if you're interested)
The TOS episode "The Savage Curtain" does have some wonderful moments between 'Surak' and Spock, and is a fairly decent episode.
As to the crusades, I am also a christian and believe that as such I have a moral obligation to study those periods were the word of God was wrongfully used to cause harm and to be on guard against such distortions of the word. You may also want to study the reformation period.

This post has been edited by welfconfed: 03 May 2004 - 05:51 AM


#15 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 05 May 2004 - 05:56 AM

I will definitely check out "Dark Mirror." I recently got two other books by her- the "Rihannsu" books but I have not yet had a chance to read them. I remember those lines and I see what you mean. After all, the Romulans are a very logical people, but they have a dose of passion too that allows them to do things more efficiently. Surak was by no means emotionless, from what we saw of him. Perhaps the Vulcans took it too far... and the Romulan group was the one that recognized that for what it was and decided to leave before they could forget their ideas.

I have also studied the Reformation. I studied a lot of Medieval Christian activities, mainly through school, but they were also fascinating to simply read about.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#16 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 06 May 2004 - 04:16 AM

The idea that the Romulans were the true followers of Surak certainly puts a new twist on the TNG episodes "Unification parts 1 and 2", because it opens the possibility that the Romulans genuinely believed they were liberating 'those poor Vulcans that had lost their way', not to mention the prospect of a Romulan crusade to 'free the holy land' from Vulcan 'heretics' and federation heathens.

This post has been edited by welfconfed: 06 May 2004 - 05:47 AM


#17 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 06 May 2004 - 06:39 PM

Interesting. The idea that Romulans believe Vulcan belongs to them... but it is true, is it not. They have just as much right to it as Vulcans. Personally, I would prefer the more temperate world of Romulus, but they certainly deserve both. Of course, that might mean that the Vulcans also have claim to both... oh, this does get confusing! This inevitably leads to the issue of reunification. Is it not strange that they always talk about Romulans who want to "return to the Vulcan way of life" but there are never Vulcans who want to change to the Romulan way of life. Also, they always say "return" when talking about Romulan to Vulcan but "change" when talking about Vulcan to Romulan?

This post has been edited by Valeris: 06 May 2004 - 06:39 PM

*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#18 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 07 May 2004 - 03:22 AM

Valeris, on May 6 2004, 06:39 PM, said:

Interesting. The idea that Romulans believe Vulcan belongs to them... but it is true, is it not. They have just as much right to it as Vulcans. Personally, I would prefer the more temperate world of Romulus, but they certainly deserve both. Of course, that might mean that the Vulcans also have claim to both... oh, this does get confusing! This inevitably leads to the issue of reunification. Is it not strange that they always talk about Romulans who want to "return to the Vulcan way of life" but there are never Vulcans who want to change to the Romulan way of life. Also, they always say "return" when talking about Romulan to Vulcan but "change" when talking about Vulcan to Romulan?

from the Romulan point of view, it may not be as simple as right of ownership, or reunification.
If my theory is correct, then the nature of the 'Romulan diaspora' becomes very complicated indeed.
Imagine the upheavals unleased by the 'Surakans' as nations, cultures, cities, and even individual households find themselves divided and at odds with each other.
It would be as if one day world leaders, celebrities, friends and family embraced an entirely alien and frightening way of life, so that instead of the warm and loving people you had grown up surrounded by, you are confronted with cold and unemotional strangers. The early 'Romulans' may have been rendered outcasts then, but I believe they remained on vulcan and eventually embraced a more balanced and less radical form of 'Suraks way'. (analogous to the christian reformation). This change probably toke decades, if not centuries, but still left them a second class 'illogical' minority on a world overwhelmingly following what was by then the 'Vulcan way'.
What must it have been like for those people, to be forced to choose between their world and the simple freedom to express their feelings. What was it like for parents to look at their children and know that they would be rendered homeless refugees, never to see their world again, and for what, the freedom to smile at a love one, or giggle at a silly joke, or to cry when they hurt.
The Romulans, however, were a strong and determined people and would not be broken by misfortune, so to stay true to who they were, they launched themselves into the dark void of interstellar space.
Resources were limited with no margin for error in there use and distribution. During their long journey the Romulans were forced to make some very painful decisions, and at times that meant resorting to the elimination of the sick and the weak, even to infanticide. This period also saw the beginnings of Romulan concepts of honor and the importance of the duty of the individual to the community.
The Romulans were already a profoundly different culture than their vulcan 'cousins' by the time they landed on Romulus, but even as they looked to the future on their new world, some still dreamed of a day that they might return to free their ancestral homeland from the icy grip of 'vulcan logic'.
As to your observations,I'll tackle your second point first. You are quite right to point out the unavoidability of the 'reunification question', because for factions in the Empire and on vulcan, this would seem the logical consequence of peace between the RSE and the UFP.
However I think this virtually impossible, and I believe a modern example might illustrate my point.
I am originally from south eastern North Carolina, and can trace my families history there to the mid 1600s ( a mire four centuries) and the early english, irish and scotish settlers, but if I proposed that N.C. should 'reunify' with the United Kingdom, I would be met with laughter at best ( or should I be successful in starting a movement), U.S. military force( remember the civil war).
Now imagine after two millennium of separation and over two centuries of vulcan membership in the federation, a plan for reunification. How do you achieve this short of vulcan joining the Romulan Empire, or the the dismantling of the Empire and Romulus joining the Federation. Short of divine intervention or a very bored Q, I don't think this likely.
The real problems begin when we consider your first point, do the Romulans have a legitimate claim to vulcan, and who decides;the Romulans, the vulcans, or the federation. The Romulans would seem the injured party here, but what about the rights of the vulcan people as federation citizens, or at least as members of a planetary government with the right to self-determination.
So, in a sense, Romulan 'honor' (ie. their duty to liberate the vulcan people) in this matter and federation sovereignty would seem to make another federation/ romulan war inevitable. ( It is indeed a very dangerous game that Spock is playing on Romulus)
the Empire eternal, the Empire universal
Jolan True

#19 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 07 May 2004 - 05:58 AM

Fascinating. I have lived in Western North Carolina all my life... but most of my ancestors came to America in only the past few decades. I might be moving to Kansas anyway. But on to the real topic.

I never thought about your points like that though. After all, the "colonies" have not been "colonies" for three centuries, but we are still the same race as England and we still know why we separated. Yet the Romulans and Vulcans separated so many millennia ago, people are not always even sure if they are the same race. And this question of reunification would make an alliance with the UFP, as seems to be the general direction at the end of Nemesis, all the more complex. I somehow doubt they would reunify, at least not for another few centuries (at least!). But to have Vulcans and Romulans working together, and knowing that at the same time, they are something completely the same and completely alien to the other. No, even if treaties were signed, it would likely never work out. And as one side or the other always seems to want to do something, like steal technology or destroy outposts, they would never even be able to maintain peace. While the governments talk peacefully on screen, when they cut communications, they turn around and order warbirds and starships on covert missions the other other side of the Neutral Zone.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#20 User is offline   ILIKESEVEN 

  • Captain of the BATAVIA NCC 1856
  • Group: Ship Crew
  • Posts: 1,124
  • Joined: 02-February 04

Posted 07 May 2004 - 08:23 AM

I don,t like Romulans,
They smell bad
They look bad
They even talk bad
"Nevertheless I'm willing to explore my humanity. Take off your clothes"
(Seven to Kim)


"IT,S BETTER TO BURNOUT, THAN TO FADE AWAY"(ilikeseven)


"Can I buy you a drink, or should I just give you the money?"(Failed pick-up line)

#21 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 07 May 2004 - 05:26 PM

ILIKESEVEN, on May 7 2004, 08:23 AM, said:

I don,t like Romulans,
They smell bad
They look bad
They even talk bad

You do not like Romulans, and your reasons were as follows.
1)They smell bad.
Why were you going around smelling Romulans to begin with, that is quite rude. You don't see Romulans sneaking about sniffing every stray alien they meet.
2)They look bad.
That is mire subjective opinion. If you find a race aesthetically unpleasant, simply don't look.
3) They even talk bad.
Are you referring to the grammar or the content of their speech. If the former, then any mistakes would be a problem in the universal translator,and if the latter, I am unaware of any 'bad' words that the Romulans have used.(Though the Klingons have been known to employ some rather colorful phrases from time to time.)
I would like to say, however, that I believe your opinion would be quite different had the producers of voyager decided to glue Romulan ears onto Jeri Ryan instead of borg implants. :laugh:

#22 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 07 May 2004 - 06:23 PM

Valeris, on May 7 2004, 05:58 AM, said:

Fascinating. I have lived in Western North Carolina all my life... but most of my ancestors came to America in only the past few decades. I might be moving to Kansas anyway. But on to the real topic.

I never thought about your points like that though. After all, the "colonies" have not been "colonies" for three centuries, but we are still the same race as England and we still know why we separated. Yet the Romulans and Vulcans separated so many millennia ago, people are not always even sure if they are the same race. And this question of reunification would make an alliance with the UFP, as seems to be the general direction at the end of Nemesis, all the more complex. I somehow doubt they would reunify, at least not for another few centuries (at least!). But to have Vulcans and Romulans working together, and knowing that at the same time, they are something completely the same and completely alien to the other. No, even if treaties were signed, it would likely never work out. And as one side or the other always seems to want to do something, like steal technology or destroy outposts, they would never even be able to maintain peace. While the governments talk peacefully on screen, when they cut communications, they turn around and order warbirds and starships on covert missions the other other side of the Neutral Zone.

The mountains of western N.C. are among the most beautiful places on earth. (unfortunately I grew up in the south eastern lowland swamps, sort of like louisiana without any of the fun, but all of the mosquitoes.)

You are quite right to point out that any covert operations between the Romulans and the Federation are very mutual. If the Empire truly wanted war, the Federation has given them ample excuses to do so. Considering the Federation predilection for spying and stealing from the Romulans, it is a bit hypocritical of them to label the Romulans as 'dishonorable'.

This post has been edited by welfconfed: 07 May 2004 - 11:31 PM


#23 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 09 May 2004 - 05:37 PM

welfconfed, on May 7 2004, 05:26 PM, said:

I would like to say, however, that I believe your opinion would be quite different had the producers of voyager decided to glue Romulan ears onto Jeri Ryan instead of borg implants. :laugh:

:unsure:

Humans. :flowers: They confuse me. If they opened their minds instead of thinking with their phasers, they might see that Romulans are not the blame for every bad thing that happens in the galaxy. The Romulans were right not to trust them when they first met. They do not mind breaking treaties either.

By the way, I bought "Dark Victory" by William Shatner. It is a books about the mirror universe; I will likely read it on the nine hour bus ride tomorrow.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#24 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 10 May 2004 - 03:08 AM

Valeris, on May 9 2004, 05:37 PM, said:

:flowers:

Humans.  :unsure:  They confuse me. If they opened their minds instead of thinking with their phasers, they might see that Romulans are not the blame for every bad thing that happens in the galaxy. The Romulans were right not to trust them when they first met. They do not mind breaking treaties either.

By the way, I bought "Dark Victory" by William Shatner. It is a books about the mirror universe; I will likely read it on the nine hour bus ride tomorrow.

I assume the bus ride refers to your move to Kansas. If you read this before you leave, I want to wish you a peaceful and safe journey and good fortune in your new home. Dear friend, know that until you reestablish contact, you will be missed.

If you haven't purchased "Spectre", the first part of Shatners three part mirror universe saga, the second part "Dark Victory" may not be as satisfying as starting from the beginning. The last novel in the trilogy is "preserver", if your interested.

Your right about the Federation's 'defective' memory where it's interaction with the Romulan Empire is concerned. Granted, the first post-bellum contact with the UFP wasn't one of the bright spots in the history of Romulan foreign relations, but twice the Federation committed major violations of the peace treaty in just the period 2267 to 2268. These violations included not only crossing into the neutral zone, but also on one of these occasions the thief of Imperial Fleet property, and the kidnapping of a Romulan Fleet officer. Where was the Federation's enlightened, superior morality then. The UFP's track record in the 24th century has been even worse.
In 2365 not just one, but two Galaxy Class starships violated the zone, and then when one of the Imperial Fleets vessels went to investigate, they were infected with a "mysterious computer virus that the Star Fleet ships were innocent of inflecting on the Warbird, but which they just so happen to have the solution to after they had completed their 'mission' on the planet" (how wonderfully convenient for them) (TNG Season 2 "Contagion")
In 2366 the two man crew of a damaged scout ship that had traveled off course and crashed on a Federation planet were captured, one of which died from injuries they refuse to treat, the Romulan vessel in the area was threated when they requested the return of the officers for medical treatment. (TNG Season 3 "The Enemy")
Then in that same year the Federation refused a request for extradition of a wanted criminal, an Imperial Fleet Admiral that had betrayed his people and his government to the Federation,and used his stolen 'intelligence' to plan an invasion of Romulan territory with the help of their allies the Klingons. (TNG Season 3 "The Defector")
Perhaps the worst was in 2374, during the Dominion War, when the Federation murdered a Romulan Senator to frame the dominion and trick the Romulan Empire into the war on the UFP's side. How many Romulans lost their lives in a war the Empire shouldn't of had to fight? (DSN Season 6 " In the Pale Moonlight")

Given the history of UFP/RSE relations, the startling thing is that the Romulans have been so patient and dedicated to peace at all cost.

the Empire eternal, the Empire universal
Jolan True

#25 User is offline   Q stole my bike 

  • the beer drinking, chain smoking, T'Pol loving Romulan
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,707
  • Joined: 26-February 04

Posted 10 May 2004 - 08:29 AM

Valeris, on May 1 2004, 04:38 PM, said:

They are good for making ale! But they are also honorable, even now.

It's nice to know that they're not all eevil 9note the two E's) conspriators...

#26 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 12 May 2004 - 10:24 PM

I did not realize that "Dark Victory" was part of a trilogy. Thank you.

Actually, the bus trip was not my move to Kansas, but a trip to DC. I will not be moving until later this summer, in either July or August. Of course, I will be in France at that time so I will not really be moving with the rest of the family...

The Romulans, though, had good reason to be hostle to the UFP representatives. They do not have a good history of contact with other species, and even their own race treated them very porrly. Naturally, the hostilities would continue. I admire all those UFP breaches of RSE/UFP treaties you brought up, Welfconfed. I shall have to show that list around whenever anyone ::coughTSoncough:: says that the Romulans are the ones who always break the treaties.

And, QSMB, they are definitely not all evil. Only a few, just like on Earth, or Vulcan, or Kronos, or anywhere else.
*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

#27 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 13 May 2004 - 02:50 AM

Valeris! I'm so pleased that you have returned, defending the Empire alone is a daunting task. I trust your journey was a pleasant one.
I envy you your opportunity to visit Washington, and, this summer, France.
I would absolutely love to be able to take the time to travel in person to the Smithsonian and to the nearby National Archives, not to mention the vast repositories of information available in europe.
While these days alot of data is online, there is nothing like seeing, and on some rare occasions, touching the original documents.
Currently it appears it will be December, at the earliest, before I will even be able to return to North Carolina, and then only for a couple of weeks.


The only deliberate Romulan breech of a treaty that I recall was in the incursion in 2266. (113 years before the 'present' of Star Trek: Nemesis, 2379) That is the equivalent of the U.S. condemning a nation for something done in 1891! :)
Don't tell me you have a 'Romulan-basher' (TSon) in your midst. :)
Well, I trust that you we be able to 'educate' :) him. :thumbs:

QSMB...not only do they make excellent ale, but like the Vulcans, they make pretty good soup. "Soup is good food". :) ...and no one that makes good soup could be evil. :)

This post has been edited by welfconfed: 13 May 2004 - 02:51 AM


#28 User is offline   ILIKESEVEN 

  • Captain of the BATAVIA NCC 1856
  • Group: Ship Crew
  • Posts: 1,124
  • Joined: 02-February 04

  Posted 13 May 2004 - 04:57 AM

quote:welfconfed @May 7 2004, 05:26 PM

Quote

You do not like Romulans, and your reasons were as follows.
1)They smell bad.
Why were you going around smelling Romulans to begin with, that is quite rude. You don't see Romulans sneaking about sniffing every stray alien they meet.
2)They look bad.
That is mire subjective opinion. If you find a race aesthetically unpleasant, simply don't look.
3) They even talk bad.
Are you referring to the grammar or the content of their speech. If the former, then any mistakes would be a problem in the universal translator,and if the latter, I am unaware of any 'bad' words that the Romulans have used.(Though the Klingons have been known to employ some rather colorful phrases from time to time.)
I would like to say, however, that I believe your opinion would be quite different had the producers of voyager decided to glue Romulan ears onto Jeri Ryan instead of borg implants.


I still think they have no Honor
They are a stupid, agressif, ugly, violent, unrelieabel and discusting spiecies
"Nevertheless I'm willing to explore my humanity. Take off your clothes"
(Seven to Kim)


"IT,S BETTER TO BURNOUT, THAN TO FADE AWAY"(ilikeseven)


"Can I buy you a drink, or should I just give you the money?"(Failed pick-up line)

#29 User is offline   welfconfed 

  • Commander
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 294
  • Joined: 08-January 04

Posted 13 May 2004 - 06:42 AM

ILIKESEVEN, on May 13 2004, 04:57 AM, said:

I still think they have no Honor
They are a stupid, agressif, ugly, violent, unrelieabel and discusting spiecies

You have such passionate opinions where Romulans are concern :thumbs: , I can only assume that those opinions are not just racial slurs or insult for insults sake :) , but are instead based on objective observations of the Romulans.
so I think we could all benefit from a detailed statement of the specific incidents that you based your conclusions on, thus showing those of us with a more positive view of the Romulans exactly were we are mistaken. :)

#30 User is offline   Valeris 

  • Chairman of the Tal Shiar
  • Group: Ships Crew
  • Posts: 1,302
  • Joined: 08-January 04

  Posted 14 May 2004 - 10:51 PM

welfconfed, on May 13 2004, 02:50 AM, said:

Valeris! I'm so pleased that you have returned, defending the Empire alone is a daunting task. I trust your journey was a pleasant one.
I envy you your opportunity to visit Washington, and, this summer, France.
I would absolutely love to be able to take the time to travel in person to the Smithsonian and to the nearby National Archives, not to mention the vast repositories of information available in europe.
While these days alot of data is online, there is nothing like seeing, and on some rare occasions, touching the original documents.
Currently it appears it will be December, at the earliest, before I will even be able to return to North Carolina, and then only for a couple of weeks.


The only deliberate Romulan breech of a treaty that I recall was in the incursion in 2266. (113 years before the 'present' of Star Trek: Nemesis, 2379) That is the equivalent of the U.S. condemning a nation for something done in 1891! :P
Don't tell me you have a 'Romulan-basher' (TSon) in your midst. :)
Well, I trust that you we be able to 'educate'  :( him. :)

QSMB...not only do they make excellent ale, but like the Vulcans, they make pretty good soup. "Soup is good food". B) ...and no one that makes good soup could be evil.  :unsure:

You come here just in time for my birthday! Of course, I will be in Kansas by then, but what can I do? I did go to the Simthsonian and though we tried to go to the National Archives, most of the class did not want to for some reason. I hate my class. My journey was alright, aside from the fact that I had seen most it from an RV tour of New England a few years ago and my classmates were really, really annoying.
We do seem to be the only major RSE supporters... wonder where Tal Shiar 8472 is... I certainly hope you were not alone when I was gone.
I think that I will give T'Son a link to these pages so he can see our arguements. Then maybe he will not be able to insult me so much! Knowing T'Son though, it might take a long time... However, you do have some excellent arguements. Who says Romulans cannot be logical!?

ILIKESEVEN, I do not understand why you would call a race as a whole stupid, aggressive, ugly, violent, unreliable, and disgusting. Surely even some humans, Vulcans, Klingons, even Romulans are like that... but far from all of them! I am with Welfconfed- where are specific examples where the whole race is like this? And also, did you know about the spell check button?

This post has been edited by Valeris: 14 May 2004 - 10:53 PM

*~*Taffita*~*
What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand.
-Spock, The Undiscovered Country

Share this topic:


  • 5 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users